Buying and logs...

If you are buying and you don't know the type well enough to know at a glance its material condition you deserve what you get.
 
Tom-D said:
It's a super cub. PA-18-180, if it had complete records and no damage, it would be new :) $250,000 as equipped.



It did sell at a near new price because those who love or need them simply know after a total restoration the old logs mean nothing.
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What kept it at " middle of market" price instead of "top" for a plane in that material condition?

Something was causing a discount.
 
Tom-D said:
In that sense, you'd walk right by a brand new aircraft because it doesn't have a previous maintenance record.

Really?
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Strawman. Obviously I'm not looking at new airplanes, if I was then this thread wouldn't exist.
 
Tom-D said:
The economy
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I guess I don't understand what middle of market is if "the economy" is holding that particular plane back from "top" price in the economy.

Something is wrong with The plane if it only gets middle value at any given time, as opposed to "top" value in the market at a good condition.

It must be log-related. .




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I was very puzzled with that reasoning... Top price is top price, economy has thing to do with it...
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I was very puzzled with that reasoning... Top price is top price, economy has thing to do with it...
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when nothing is selling, what is the market for any thing?

I was told that this aircraft sold for 225,000, when the new ones were 250,000.

the middle of the market remark was simply to make the point that prior damage does not effect the value.

plus the whole issue of the logs mean nothing until you inspect the aircraft. Simply because when you see this type of aircraft the material condition is very apparent.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I was very puzzled with that reasoning... Top price is top price, economy has thing to do with it...
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Kinda what I thought. There is always a Top Price in a market, middle price, and low prices.

I am guessing the plane would be Top Price in the same condition, at any given time, vs the middle price in the same condition, with the log issues.


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Tom-D said:
Who would walk by this super cub at middle of the market price just because it had prior damage and messed up bog books.
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I'm not in the market so I'll have to ask....how many other PA-18s are on the market?
 
Let me explain a little marketing secret to you hopeful sellers, it's true in the car business and as far as I know every other business that deals in commonly available items. Not so much for rare restored cars, boats airplanes etc.
Sellers are calling looking for one of two things:
1. A reason to buy what you are selling.
2. A reason to eliminate you from their list.
The better you handle the initial phone call, having the information readily available, answering all their questions, sending them additional information as needed to more likely they are to consider your item.
Rush them off the phone, make fun of their lack of knowledge, refuse to answer questions, etc. puts you into category #2. All buyers and sellers are different, and if you are selling or buying you have to deal with whoever is on the other side of the table. If a buyer or seller gets a bad vibe, they walk and if you are giving off bad vibes as a seller, a lot will walk. But, you can always brag, you put that tire-kicker in his place! :yes:
Are scanned log books a great tool to help sell an airplane, absolutely, much easier than it was 10-20 years ago and almost free to do. I remember calling Van Bortel about a 310R back in 1991 and the next day I got a Fed-Ex with specs and 5-6 pictures. Today it would be 10 minutes and an email with 20-50 pictures. :D
That all being said, I have personally looked at the log books of one airplane that I bought, my 182. The others I had the mechanic doing the pre-buy look them over. :dunno:
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I was very puzzled with that reasoning... Top price is top price, economy has thing to do with it...
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Economy has a lot to do with it. You're not buying a P-51, you're looking for a typical GA single engine piston and they have been dropping in price since the recession. That's why we keep saying now is the best time to buy in decades.

I bought my Glasair in 2007 for 50K. Even with a new 200 SMOH engine I couldn't get more than 35K for that thing. I always tell prospective buyers, don't buy anything that you can't stand living with forever. While breaking even on a resale does happen, most are selling for far less than what they paid for it. In that case, I'll just hold on to it until the market comes back.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I am guessing the plane would be Top Price in the same condition, at any given time, vs the middle price in the same condition, with the log issues.


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That's simply a buyer's belief.
 
Tom-D said:
That's simply a buyer's belief.
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I was under the impression that we were in a buyers market. If that's the case, then a buyers belief would tend to carry some weight in regards to the value of a sale.
 
DavidH said:
I was under the impression that we were in a buyers market. If that's the case, then a buyers belief would tend to carry some weight in regards to the value of a sale.
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When buyers are informed about the make and model they will know what the price the aircraft should be. and the material condition is the only real thing that matters.
 
But it isn't the only thing that matters. Diminished value due to damage history is a very real thing.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
But it isn't the only thing that matters. Diminished value due to damage history is a very real thing.
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This is only true if there are a number of other readily available examples in exactly the same or better condition. Tom's Supercub example is a much different market than say a late 70's Cessna 172. You would be hard pressed to find any PA-18 in original un-modified form as it came off the Piper line 30 or 40 years ago and if there is one as such with no damage history there certainly aren't a number of them all on the market in competition.

The bottom line, as it has been repeatedly pointed out, is actual physical condition. It's something that a pile of papers is not going to tell you.
 
So we have shifted the argument to rare examples(ones that Joe Blow like myself can't realistically afford) to support the assertion that logbooks are irrelevant?
 
fiveoboy01 said:
But it isn't the only thing that matters. Diminished value due to damage history is a very real thing.
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Are you buying to use, or are you buying to flip?

When you are going to buy and use the aircraft previous damage is not a worry when repaired. all it really means is to check how well the aircraft flys. If it does not fly correctly, I'd walk even if it didn't have prior damage.

If it is bent, it's bent, and 9 times out of 10 it never gets logged. And its damn hard to correct and get the speeds in the book.
 
Silvaire said:
The bottom line, as it has been repeatedly pointed out, is actual physical condition. It's something that a pile of papers is not going to tell you.
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Just remember you can fix paper a lot cheaper than metal.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
So we have shifted the argument to rare examples(ones that Joe Blow like myself can't realistically afford) to support the assertion that logbooks are irrelevant?
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When you are buying any aircraft to keep and fly, you want the best material condition and the lowest times you can find at the best price. never worry about selling it, you will find it will become a project anyway.

when the time comes to sell, all buyers will believe you are out to screw them anyway with a worn out POS with bad logs.
 
DavidH said:
I'm curious how you go about fixing missing airframe logs.
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You get the history CD from OKC and any other records you can find and create new records. It basically requires an annual inspection and AD compliance check.

This is why the FAA likes the IA to keep the A/F TT and Eng TT in there records. Then you can ask FSDO who did the last Annual, get the times from the IA and add any time from pilots who flew the aircraft after the last annual.

I keep the Tach reading from the Annual Signoff, then simply add the tach's present reading.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
So we have shifted the argument to rare examples(ones that Joe Blow like myself can't realistically afford) to support the assertion that logbooks are irrelevant?
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This isn't an "argument" we're simply having a discussion. I'm beginning to see now why the old guy blew you off :rolleyes:
 
Argument used as a noun, not a verb. The word has more than one definition.

I didn't know "discussions" included veiled insults.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
So we have shifted the argument to rare examples(ones that Joe Blow like myself can't realistically afford) to support the assertion that logbooks are irrelevant?
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You are too sensible! Of course log books are important!!. The more precise, the better history they provide. After I went light sport The last four aircraft I purchased had very extensive logs and many many bills , receipts for work done to go with them. All four sellers were either rebuilders or professional pilots, used to good paper work. These logs were also instrumental when I want to sell each one. I bought each of them to fly and enjoy, not to " flip". I should add that all four were always hangared and the hangars were spotless, like the aircraft. ( I also purchased a cessna 140 from a rebuilder, former supervisor for Fairchild aircraft. Same senerio, excellent complete logs. It was a trophy winner as were two others.)
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You are too sensible! Of course log books are important!!. The more precise, the better history they provide.
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If that makes you warm and fuzzy, I have a data tag and a set of log books that should get you really excited.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You'd never touch an airplane I owned from statements you've made in the past, this subject included.
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You can only wish I would carry you as a customer.

don't loose any sleep over it. :)
 
Tom-D said:
When you are buying any aircraft to keep and fly, you want the best material condition and the lowest times you can find at the best price. never worry about selling it, you will find it will become a project anyway.

when the time comes to sell, all buyers will believe you are out to screw them anyway with a worn out POS with bad logs.
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Just curious.

What does "material condition" mean?

Or, perhaps, what's the difference between "condition" and "material condition"?
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Just curious.

What does "material condition" mean?
That refers to the physical condition of the part, new, used, broken, etc. In this thread the term means the actual condition of the aircraft, is it worn out, corroded, or bent etc.

Or, perhaps, what's the difference between "condition" and "material condition"?
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as used in the FARs? "on condition" means when certain conditions are met, things need to happen. for an example, prop strikes, when these happen there are certain inspection to be completed.
 
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It's the "as used in this thread" meaning that I'm asking about.

It sounded like "material condition" was some special term of art that is somehow different from the ordinary "condition" of the aircraft, but I guess not.

Thanks.
 
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