Buying a 150 to get PPL, few questions

WannFly said:
@Harold Rutila thanks so much for your detailed response. much appreciated. I met the flight school manager today to learn more about the cost around here. heated hangers are a little more here about 400 a month and rest of the expenses are at par with what you mentioned. he also mentioned the idea of leaseback, I am going to research some more on it, talk to my CPA etc..long road ahead but good to know that I don't have to be a millionaire to own and operate it.
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There used to be a "sticky" on Leasebacks around here somewhere, and it's worth the read. Lots of downsides to that and upsides are limited to how well you run it as a business, not just a way to subsidize an aircraft purchase.
 
Leaseback on a C150 sounds like a bad deal for everyone involved, apart from whoever gets to rip you off with maintenance.
 
yeah I have been reading on leaseback on this forum after I posted and the more I read, the most depressed I get. time to sip in some scotch and hit the sac :(
 
WannFly said:
yeah I have been reading on leaseback on this forum after I posted and the more I read, the most depressed I get. time to sip in some scotch and hit the sac :(
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What if you could find another prospective student pilot(or anyone wanting some lower cost flying) to split the expenses. I think you can rent to an individual and not be required to have 100 hr. inspections. You'd add that person to the insurance and they'd pay some extra hourly to cover that and some of the hangar and maintenance expense. ??? I'm not sure of all the technicals involved in this method but it might be something to research.

Anyone done that?
 
definitely an option. but I would love get some feedback from some people who have done this.
 
exncsurfer said:
What if you could find another prospective student pilot(or anyone wanting some lower cost flying) to split the expenses. I think you can rent to an individual and not be required to have 100 hr. inspections. You'd add that person to the insurance and they'd pay some extra hourly to cover that and some of the hangar and maintenance expense. ??? I'm not sure of all the technicals involved in this method but it might be something to research.

Anyone done that?
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I think this is down the path of a non-equity partnership, or even establishing a small club?

And the way I understand, 100hr inspections are not required for those types of operations, but would be if the airplane were to be placed on leaseback and rented to non-owner pilots.
 
AWACSEng said:
I think this is down the path of a non-equity partnership, or even establishing a small club?

And the way I understand, 100hr inspections are not required for those types of operations, but would be if the airplane were to be placed on leaseback and rented to non-owner pilots.
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that's my understanding too. I heard there are some guys sharing a plane at the school, I will check more, but before anything.. I wanna run some numbers and see if I can actually afford one without breaking the bank
 
FlySince9 said:
C'mon, really? you couldn't make the leap? I thought it obvious he meant on the engine... Just say'n...:D
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Great! I am so happy for you! You are a genius! :rolleyes:

To be honest, I thought that he probably meant engine but the way it was written it implied airframe. It was poorly phrased so I challenged it. There have been a few other posts on POA that I have replied to similarly due to what was written versus what was probably meant even though I had a strong inkling of what was meant. I will even defend my position by insisting on reading something as written to the very end sometimes just to keep a fun debate going. No, I am not the grammar police, I just have my pet peeves and lack of clarity is one. I am also bored sometimes and this place does provide ample opportunities to break the boredom even if it means being a bit pedantic. But hey, I seem to have plenty of company.

Damn Huntersville folks. ;)
 
WannFly said:
I have, and I will start looking actively for a similar set up in our area.
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Go ahead and Purchase one on your on. I knocked around for a few years trying to find partnership. Wasted time in my opinion. Decided that I wasn't getting any younger and 16yr old daughter (wants a career in flying) was only getting older. Purchased us a '72 C150L and Haven't regretted a minute since. We both received/receiving training and currently working on ppl. Funny thing is that I have had several 4 and 6 place owners ask if they can buzz around in the 150. They state that they just want an enjoying afternoon, flying in circles, sight seeing flight. Feel that when their props spin that they need to be actually trying to get somewhere due to cost of operation. It's all about your current mission and needs.

Be smart, be patient, and find a reliable looking machine. Most 150s cost less than many of my friends Harley's. Definitely less than their $40k+ 4x4 in the yard.
 
Greenhead said:
Go ahead and Purchase one on your on. I knocked around for a few years trying to find partnership. Wasted time in my opinion. Decided that I wasn't getting any younger and 16yr old daughter (wants a career in flying) was only getting older. Purchased us a '72 C150L and Haven't regretted a minute since. We both received/receiving training and currently working on ppl. Funny thing is that I have had several 4 and 6 place owners ask if they can buzz around in the 150. They state that they just want an enjoying afternoon, flying in circles, sight seeing flight. Feel that when their props spin that they need to be actually trying to get somewhere due to cost of operation. It's all about your current mission and needs.

Be smart, be patient, and find a reliable looking machine. Most 150s cost less than many of my friends Harley's. Definitely less than their $40k+ 4x4 in the yard.
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I am not sure a 150/152 will meet my requirements. I am 240 . As far as I can tell the useful load on that is pretty low and won't allow for 2 adults to fly around with any luggage whatsoever. I plan to keep it 2-3 years, it even more, who knows, something that I can get my IFR on, and few 300-400 k miles XC for no apparent reason. I think a 172 will fit my mission better or even a low wing Cherokee. I have been looking around on the Web and don't think a 172 or even a 182 would break the bank. Partnership might work, but it's a very big MIGHT. I am not very good at sharing my machines with others. No one touches my car, I wash it myself, let alone let anyone else drive it ...

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WannFly said:
I am not sure a 150/152 will meet my requirements. I am 240 . As far as I can tell the useful load on that is pretty low and won't allow for 2 adults to fly around with any luggage whatsoever. I plan to keep it 2-3 years, it even more, who knows, something that I can get my IFR on, and few 300-400 k miles XC for no apparent reason. I think a 172 will fit my mission better or even a low wing Cherokee. I have been looking around on the Web and don't think a 172 or even a 182 would break the bank. Partnership might work, but it's a very big MIGHT. I am not very good at sharing my machines with others. No one touches my car, I wash it myself, let alone let anyone else drive it ...

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My VFR Cherokee 140 could carry you plus a 190-lb instructor with 40 gallons of fuel. I sometimes wish I'd spent more up front and gotten a more capable plane, but it's worked out great for getting my private. Plus, it's much easier to log cross country hours when you're flying at 100 knots! And I really like the low wing.
 
WannFly said:
I am not sure a 150/152 will meet my requirements. I am 240 . As far as I can tell the useful load on that is pretty low and won't allow for 2 adults to fly around with any luggage whatsoever. I plan to keep it 2-3 years, it even more, who knows, something that I can get my IFR on, and few 300-400 k miles XC for no apparent reason. I think a 172 will fit my mission better or even a low wing Cherokee. I have been looking around on the Web and don't think a 172 or even a 182 would break the bank. Partnership might work, but it's a very big MIGHT. I am not very good at sharing my machines with others. No one touches my car, I wash it myself, let alone let anyone else drive it ...

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Yea, the 240lb changes things. I still say research and purchase what you can afford. Then if you want partners, put the word out and let them come to you. Choose wisely though! Good luck!!
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
First, Hello...

I've seen the question asked, but perhaps not from the specific angle I'm coming from. Having run the numbers, I've come to the conclusion that a purchase of a less than 500hr, current annual Cessna 150 or 152 would be a better financial move, for me personally, than renting while getting PPL + some hours. I recognize fully the "unknowns" that I'll be taking on and having owned numerous boats, motorcycles and a sporty car or two, I realize that it's more accurately stated as "definitely going to cost you...just a matter of when".

I'm comfortable with that aspect.

Problem I'm having is actually how to jump in. I have no real close contacts in the fixed wing world. I have a friend/neighbor who's a commercial helicopter pilot...not a lot of specific experience to transfer to a Cessna. That's about it for first hand associates who fly. I have a line on what looks to be a reasonable prospect for purchase, but as of current, haven't found a CFI to instruct me in my plane I intend to purchase, in my area (southeastern VA). Further, I'd like to get some sort of pre-purchase inspection done, and ideally have someone to fly it (test flights a thing?) and then possibly fly it home.

Any thoughts on where to start?
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I bought a Cherokee 140 and love having my own plane. Like you I've had power toys before too. It's pretty much the same thing.

Flight instructors, especially the older ones, tend to be pretty knowledgeable about airplanes. I'd find an instructor you like, who owns or is a partner in a plane or three; do 10-15 hours in a rental with that instructor; and then be talking to him or her about finding a plane. The instructor will most likely be familiar with a lot of airplanes, and be friends with a lot of pilots. Once you're in the community it will be a lot easier and you'll have a lot of people to draw knowledge from. Airplane people love a) airplanes and b) other people who love airplanes.
 
TylerSC said:
My VFR Cherokee 140 could carry you plus a 190-lb instructor with 40 gallons of fuel. I sometimes wish I'd spent more up front and gotten a more capable plane, but it's worked out great for getting my private. Plus, it's much easier to log cross country hours when you're flying at 100 knots! And I really like the low wing.
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I haven't flown a low wing yet, but a lot of people on this forum recommends it. I will for sure fly a few of them before making a decision and obviously I will know much more about what to look for as well

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Greenhead said:
Yea, the 240lb changes things. I still say research and purchase what you can afford. Then if you want partners, put the word out and let them come to you. Choose wisely though! Good luck!!
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Thanks, yes this time around I am going to hell lot of research, I am a impulsive buyer, but this time around not doing it

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SkyDog58 said:
Great! I am so happy for you! You are a genius! :rolleyes:

To be honest, I thought that he probably meant engine but the way it was written it implied airframe. It was poorly phrased so I challenged it. There have been a few other posts on POA that I have replied to similarly due to what was written versus what was probably meant even though I had a strong inkling of what was meant. I will even defend my position by insisting on reading something as written to the very end sometimes just to keep a fun debate going. No, I am not the grammar police, I just have my pet peeves and lack of clarity is one. I am also bored sometimes and this place does provide ample opportunities to break the boredom even if it means being a bit pedantic. But hey, I seem to have plenty of company.

Damn Huntersville folks. ;)
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Believe me, I won't deprive you your pet peeves... I have many... Yours are just more annoying than mine are... TOUCHE! LOL...
 
To update, finally got some hard info back from flying club up the road with a 172 and two CFI's in the club... Plugged all the new numbers back in the spreadsheet... Turns out it's cheaper to put 150 hours on their plane than even a surprisingly cheap 150/152, and even with the optimistic view that a $40/hr reserve is all I would need to keep 150 going, and taking the assumption that I'd sell the 150/152 for 95% of purchase price, 150hrs would still be nearly $4500 more in my own plane. And the fact that the 172 has the obvious second row of seats... I've been forced to modify my plan.
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
To update, finally got some hard info back from flying club up the road with a 172 and two CFI's in the club... Plugged all the new numbers back in the spreadsheet... Turns out it's cheaper to put 150 hours on their plane than even a surprisingly cheap 150/152, and even with the optimistic view that a $40/hr reserve is all I would need to keep 150 going, and taking the assumption that I'd sell the 150/152 for 95% of purchase price, 150hrs would still be nearly $4500 more in my own plane. And the fact that the 172 has the obvious second row of seats... I've been forced to modify my plan.
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I'd like to ask the experts here; should the risks of damage to one's own plane due to inexperience be factored into the calculation of rent vs own?
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
To update, finally got some hard info back from flying club up the road with a 172 and two CFI's in the club... Plugged all the new numbers back in the spreadsheet... Turns out it's cheaper to put 150 hours on their plane than even a surprisingly cheap 150/152, and even with the optimistic view that a $40/hr reserve is all I would need to keep 150 going, and taking the assumption that I'd sell the 150/152 for 95% of purchase price, 150hrs would still be nearly $4500 more in my own plane. And the fact that the 172 has the obvious second row of seats... I've been forced to modify my plan.
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You have very pessimistic figures I think. I bought a nice 150 a few months ago, and the first 150 hours cost me right at 10k all in, and that includes a semi-violent annual, and a few mechanics who ripped me off to make their house payments.
 
mtuomi said:
You have very pessimistic figures I think. I bought a nice 150 a few months ago, and the first 150 hours cost me right at 10k all in, and that includes a semi-violent annual, and a few mechanics who ripped me off to make their house payments.
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For 150 I used:
$13,000 purchase (currently for sale, nearby)
$1200/yr insurance (zero time pilot)
$40/hr maintenance reserve
$40/hr fuel
Actual hangar cost/month
$12,000 sale at end of year.

Assumed 12 months, 150 hours.

For club 172 I used all numbers as given to me in documents to join, 12 months, 150 hours.

What'd I miss?
 
My current fuel costs are $21/hr and 40/hr maintenance is very pessimistic (but not impossible). Your insurance will likely drop in half when you get your ticket, so that won't be 1200 for more than a month or two.
Not sure how much your "hangar cost" is, I assume you will not hangar the plane, that's just wasting money.
On top of your purchase price you'll need to count plane owner essentials. Chocks, tiedowns, cleaning stuff etc. That stuff adds up.

What's the 172 hourly wet cost at the club?
 
That is dirt cheap. Owning and flying 150hrs/year you'll be below that in the long run, but not necessarily the first year.
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
For 150 I used:
$13,000 purchase (currently for sale, nearby)
$1200/yr insurance (zero time pilot)
$40/hr maintenance reserve
$40/hr fuel
Actual hangar cost/month
$12,000 sale at end of year.

Assumed 12 months, 150 hours.

For club 172 I used all numbers as given to me in documents to join, 12 months, 150 hours.

What'd I miss?
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Insurance for 1200$ is high. I have 20k on hull and am only paying 850$ with a ,then zero hour, 15yr old and myself low time. I'd shop around and compare policies.

My fuel burn averages 10$ less than yours with current price.

Not sure if this helps but just some of my real world numbers.

Might be hard to beat a well ran flying club though. But nothing like owning your own aircraft.........
 
I have $25k hull and I pay $430/yr. 400hr private ticket.
I pay $3,09/gallon in Mogas (or $3,39 Avgas) so my gas costs are pretty reasonable, just over $20/hr.
$40/hr maintenance requires bad luck and/or ripoff mechanics.
I doubt the plane will depreciate from $13000, unless it's a POS (and a POS is not worth 13k to start with...)
If it's not run out and crap, it will probably appreciate with use.
 
mtuomi said:
That is dirt cheap. Owning and flying 150hrs/year you'll be below that in the long run, but not necessarily the first year.
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Yeah...I mean my end game would ideally be a 4 place of my own, and 150hrs/yr is likely optimistic, but I had to pick something to provide a basis of comparison between my various options. I was intentionally high on fuel because I don't want to assume that gas prices stay where they are for 12 months.

Insurance was just a wild a guess, but again, wanted to cover my bases. $300-500 wasn't the difference between renting and owning though.

I compared over a 12 month period because I figured if I truly got ate up with it, put 150 hours on a Cessna 150, I'd be ready for a 4 place in a year...so I assumed sell at 12 months or sell my share in club at 12 months. Is either scenario reasonable/likely? Who knows, but I had to make some assumptions to try to compare things as close to apples to apples as possible.

Even backing things off on the ownership side to more conservative estimates all the way around, numbers still come out cheaper for club. Add the raw cost savings with the fact that it's already a 4 place, it already has a hangar/tiedown, insurance is covered in dues, etc. etc. Further, the upfront capital outlay is substantially smaller with the club than even a modestly priced purchase. $75/hr wet, $100/mo. My annual ownership costs are $1200 + $75/hr wet. I don't think I can beat that owning anything, unless I'm grossly overestimating things.

The only downside that I see, and time will tell how big of a downside it is, is that I'm vying for time with 4-5 other "active" users and 5 more beyond that fly once in a blue moon. I have been told that in general, they will all defer a reserved slot to an actively training student pilot. Get my ticket though, and then its every man for himself.
 
Clubs are often cheaper. Especially at $75/hr wet. Then again - if fuel prices go up, so will that rate.
Multi-day trips on non-owned planes are usually a pain. Owning is often more expensive. But now after a few months, I only regret not buying earlier.
 
This guy (the OP, buyer) is an A&P. A 150 is worth whatever he see fit to pay for it. If you take your garden variety 20K C150 and put a 10,000 box into it (even if not a 430W), well that's for him to decide. He's a grown-up. :) And I'll bet he wants control over miantainence, something you don't get in a club or a rental.

Most of us I think, believe that if he sells in 2 years he'll take a hit. Think 50% hit on avionics which is taken by the owner who installs the avionics, not by the next buyer. But this could be a really really nice 150....
 
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Thanks for setting me straight.....in which case many of the cautions should be taken to heart. When you pay a creampuff price, it better be a creampuff mechanically. One can do a LOT of engine work, for the $8,000 difference between 20K and 28.....
 
There are only a few dealbreakers in 150's that you can find in a reasonable prebuy. The rest is just luck. Buy one with engine you can trust and go in with a mindset that any upgrades you make won't return a single penny back at resale.
And find a good mechanic! I think that is the most important thing in aviation that will define how your ownership experience will be. Plenty of ripoff merchants out there...
 
ifly4fun said:
You can download the entire database as an excel file and sort it/search it
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When I was looking I found out where the nearest airports are, drove to the nearest one and asked around, saw the flight clubs, went in and asked.

Seems to me like that's the way to do it. They have to be at the airport, and you can meet and see the planes up close, ask questions and get a feel for it.

I have no idea how it works though with having your own plane. It would have to be based at the same airport your CFI uses. If it is a flight club (as it always is here I think) I don't know if they profit exactly but the rental costs are high where the CFI costs are relatively low. I'm not sure how they feel or if it could be an issue that someone with their own plane not in the stable, which they don't keep control of...what happens with insurance for the CFIs? I just don't know enough about how it works but would be asking those kinds of questions before trying to decide. With your own plane you are paying though month after month, whether the weather is ok, or prohibitive for flying. Also you may find you don't like flying as much as you thought (I can't imagine it but it can happen) And then have to sell it. Maybe not a big deal, but if it were me I would go to airports, talk to flight clubs, pick one and take lessons while renting the same type of plane you were thinking of buying. You may know after three four flights whether you really want to go as far as buying and still can do it having only "lost" a few hours rental.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Excellent idea but finding a good instructor in one of them might be difficult. Then he has to prop it or find someone to prop it while he puts on the brakes,etc. no question he would wind up being a better pilot if he could pull this off. Well worth considering.
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LOL .... a lot of Cessna 120s have been upgraded with full electrical system ( starters/alternators ) AND Radios ( NAV/COM in mine ) . Owning your own plane is really a Plus . I would try to get in one of those grass airstrips , easier on tires and brakes , Plus a lot of interesting people hang out there , I'll bet !

My opinion for getting your PPL . Go find an instructor that you 'click' with . Rent for 3 or 4 hours to get a feel IF you like it . Buy a 172 , the extra room and performance is worth it . Fly, Fly, Fly !
It's worth all the expense and sweat ! You ALWAYS be A Pilot afterwards ! Good Luck !
Terry
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
For 150 I used:
$13,000 purchase (currently for sale, nearby)
$1200/yr insurance (zero time pilot)
$40/hr maintenance reserve
$40/hr fuel
Actual hangar cost/month
$12,000 sale at end of year.

Assumed 12 months, 150 hours.

For club 172 I used all numbers as given to me in documents to join, 12 months, 150 hours.

What'd I miss?
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The mx reserve? I wouldn't bother, if a new brake pad or spark plug is going to break you, you got bigger issues. Even in my plane, which is much larger than a 150, for day to day expenses it's just fuel and oil changes, any thing that comes up I nip in the bud, hasn't been the end of the world.

And you're being skinned alive on that hangar, mines less than 1/4 of that, I'd ether keep looking or get a cover and tie down outside, a 13k 150 ain't likely to have a high end paint job anyways.

Also insurance, I'd look into a 6mo policy or something, because once you get a few hours that premium should drop in half, I'd also debate not getting full coverage on it, use a realistic risk to benefit, out of all the 0 time students I trained (most in tailwheels) not one damaged a aircraft, on a 13k 150, I'd ether go just liability or I wouldn't bother with insurance at all.
 
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