BFR Required Maneuvers

[RussR]

What advantage does that have?

I agree with your implication that there is no advantage. I can't see any. The most commonly stated "advantage", of course, is that you will then have a backup of your flight times if you lose your logbook. But no, there are much better and more useful ways to do that.

Filling out an 8710 means that instead of a 30-second logbook endorsement, now you have a _minimum_ 10 minute computer exercise. More when the applicant realizes they forgot their password, etc.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The most commonly stated "advantage", of course, is that you will then have a backup of your flight times if you lose your logbook.

And does an instructor verify those times in the logbook for a FR or IPC? His signature on a 8710 SAYS that he does that when has those times listed.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Well, if it were a requirement to file something with the FAA in conjunction with a flight review, then the FAA would be able to provide statistics on the actual number of active pilots. But, no. Better to not know how many pilots are flying under sport pilot rules or flying gliders.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Well, if it were a requirement to file something with the FAA in conjunction with a flight review, then the FAA would be able to provide statistics on the actual number of active pilots. But, no. Better to not know how many pilots are flying under sport pilot rules or flying gliders.

Just like it’s bad on a checkride to answer the DPE’s question of “what is Vy for your airplane?” with everything you know about Vy so he can evaluate your total knowledge of the subject rather than giving the answer to his question without miles of additional rope to hang yourself with.

 

[Bonchie]

What advantage does that have?

Updates the pilots records, specifically their times if they lose their logbook.

 

[Lindberg]

I agree with your implication that there is no advantage. I can't see any. The most commonly stated "advantage", of course, is that you will then have a backup of your flight times if you lose your logbook. But no, there are much better and more useful ways to do that.

Filling out an 8710 means that instead of a 30-second logbook endorsement, now you have a _minimum_ 10 minute computer exercise. More when the applicant realizes they forgot their password, etc.

If you used myflightbook it will spit out all the totals in the right format for the 8710. Of course if you use myflightbook, you don't have to worry about losing your logbook.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Updates the pilots records, specifically their times if they lose their logbook.

And how many instructors don’t commit fraud when they sign an 8710 for FR or IPC with those times on it?

 

[RussR]

Updates the pilots records, specifically their times if they lose their logbook.

There are far better ways to do this.

If you used myflightbook it will spit out all the totals in the right format for the 8710. Of course if you use myflightbook, you don't have to worry about losing your logbook.

Exactly my point.

 

[Bonchie]

And how many instructors don’t commit fraud when they sign an 8710 for FR or IPC with those times on it?

I answered your question. Your are welcome to speculate about whatever past that.

 

[Bonchie]

There are far better ways to do this

There’s always a better way to do things. And yet, many pilots still use paper. If the instructor is willing to spend 5 minutes confirming the times, there is no downside to filing an 8710.

 

[MauleSkinner]

There’s always a better way to do things. And yet, many pilots still use paper. If the instructor is willing to spend 5 minutes confirming the times, there is no downside to filing an 8710.

If an instructor is only spending five minutes confirming the times, he’s probably committing fraud.

either that or the pilot does so little flying that it’s not worth updating the times.

 

[Bonchie]

If an instructor is only spending five minutes confirming the times, he’s probably committing fraud.

either that or the pilot does so little flying that it’s not worth updating the times.

Okay

 

[RussR]

There’s always a better way to do things. And yet, many pilots still use paper. If the instructor is willing to spend 5 minutes confirming the times, there is no downside to filing an 8710.

I didn't say the "better way" was necessarily to not use paper. A "better way" than an 8710 can be to just take a picture of each logbook page. Simple, quick and easy.

After all, one of the most important things a logbook does, and the main thing we're required to log, is currency. Like landings to carry passengers. And the 8710 doesn't do anything to track currency, among other categories it doesn't track. So if you want a backup for your flight times, an 8710 doesn't do much for you. Easier methods are far superior.

 

[WDD]

Back to the topic a bit.

If you get a new rating - say Commercial - you don't need the BFR.

But say you are also IFR rated for two years and then get your Commercial. The Commercial doesn't have any IFR tasks associated with it. Even if you're current (6 in 6), wouldn't you still / shouldn't you still need an BFR for things like unusual attitude, DG and AI fails / Partial Panel, etc.?

Another example - when I got my Instrument Rating almost two years to the day I got my PPL, I didn't have to do a BFR, but the Instrument training had nothing to do with engine out practice, simulated fire, steep turns, etc.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Back to the topic a bit.

If you get a new rating - say Commercial - you don't need the BFR.

But say you are also IFR rated for two years and then get your Commercial. The Commercial doesn't have any IFR tasks associated with it. Even if you're current (6 in 6), wouldn't you still / shouldn't you still need an BFR for things like unusual attitude, DG and AI fails / Partial Panel, etc.?

Another example - when I got my Instrument Rating almost two years to the day I got my PPL, I didn't have to do a BFR, but the Instrument training had nothing to do with engine out practice, simulated fire, steep turns, etc.

The Commercial rating takes the place of the BFR because it essentially says that you've been under instruction and passed a check ride in order to reset the two year clock. Whether it has any instrument currency items is irrelevant because you aren't talking about being instrument-current. Same as getting your IR after your Private ticket counts as a BFR even though you may not be night current.

 

[WDD]

Yep. I guess my question / comment was really “ shouldn’t you need to do an instrument BFR even if you get a new rating - like a commercial - that has nothing to do with instrument skills”.

I know right now according the FAR/AIM you don’t have to. This may be the first time I’m suggesting more regulations

 

[asicer]

Yep. I guess my question / comment was really “ shouldn’t you need to do an instrument BFR even if you get a new rating - like a commercial - that has nothing to do with instrument skills”.

What's an "instrument BFR"?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yep. I guess my question / comment was really “ shouldn’t you need to do an instrument BFR even if you get a new rating - like a commercial - that has nothing to do with instrument skills”.

I know right now according the FAR/AIM you don’t have to. This may be the first time I’m suggesting more regulations

instrument privileges still require currency and/or an IPC in order to exercise them.

 

[WDD]

What's an "instrument BFR"?

It would be something new. If instrument rated, every two years you’d have to have it regardless if you get a new rating that has nothing do do with IR skills.

And vis versa. I would have to demonstrate vfr flying skills- engine out, steep turns, short field, soft field, etc. , every two years if I get new unrelated rating.

instrument privileges still require currency and/or an IPC in order to exercise them.

Yes. But I can do six in six for years and still not retain proficiency in partial panel, unusual attitude, GPS failure, loss of coms procedures, etc. Again, just a suggestion.

 

[Lindberg]

Yep. I guess my question / comment was really “ shouldn’t you need to do an instrument BFR even if you get a new rating - like a commercial - that has nothing to do with instrument skills”.

I know right now according the FAR/AIM you don’t have to. This may be the first time I’m suggesting more regulations

What about the fact that you may be treated in multiple categories and classes, but you only need a BFR in one of them? If I have balloon, gyro, glider, helo, airship, ASES, AMEL & ASEL, should I need eight BFRs?

A flight review is a very basic requirement designed to determine a minimum level of competency.

 

[Half Fast]

What about the fact that you may be treated in multiple categories and classes, but you only need a BFR in one of them? If I have balloon, gyro, glider, helo, airship, ASES, AMEL & ASEL, should I need eight BFRs?

A flight review is a very basic requirement designed to determine a minimum level of competency.

If you haven’t flown an airplane in a decade but do a BFR in a ballon, why should you suddenly be legal in AMEL?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yes. But I can do six in six for years and still not retain proficiency in partial panel, unusual attitude, GPS failure, loss of coms procedures, etc. Again, just a suggestion.

Even pilots who do IPCs regularly don’t necessarily retain proficiency in those things.

Regulations and required training do very little for proficiency. If the pilot chooses not to remain proficient, there’s no regulatory agency that can force it.

 

[WDD]

Sounds like you’re saying BFRs are of little to no value. If I understand correctly - LMK if I misunderstood.

 

[asicer]

Sounds like you’re saying BFRs are of little to no value. If I understand correctly - LMK if I misunderstood.

I took it to mean that for a BFR to have value both the CFI and the client must be invested in it. As currently written, regulation can require the BFR and perhaps even the IPC but not the investment.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Sounds like you’re saying BFRs are of little to no value. If I understand correctly - LMK if I misunderstood.

As @asicer indicated, the value of a Flight Review or IPC is only what the pilot (and to some degree, the instructor) decides it’s going to be. Whatever value a pilot decides to get from training won’t be changed by a regulation.

 

[Pinecone]

Realize the reason behind the FR (formerly BFR). It was put into place because there were pilots who were flying very little or not at all for long periods and were very rusty. Also, out of date on reg changes (reason for the ground portion).

I took 20 years off from flying. Before the BFR/FR requirement, I could have jumped into a plane solo, done 3 TO/landing and taken passengers flying. And that would have not been good.

A BFR/FR is not a checkride. It is to get pilots with an instructor every so often to ensure basic skills and a review of the regs.

 

[RussR]

If you haven’t flown an airplane in a decade but do a BFR in a ballon, why should you suddenly be legal in AMEL?

I get the point, but the next question would be "where do you draw the line"? If you instead said "If you haven't flown an ASEL in a decade but do a BFR in an AMEL, why should you suddenly be legal in ASEL?", I think most probably wouldn't have an issue with that - i.e. FR in an AMEL counts for ASEL too, which it currently does.

I agree that "balloon" counting for "helicopter", or vice versa, is a bit of a stretch. What would other options be? A FR only counts for Category? That would lump "Airplanes" together (land and sea, single and multi), Rotorcraft together (helicopters and gyrocopters), then I guess "gliders" by themselves and "balloons" too. But even then you have someone who hasn't flown a seaplane for decades being FR current by virtue of passing their last 747 checkride.

I guess what I'm saying is that, unless you break it down to the individual category and class, you're always going to have this situation to some degree. But then you end up with some people needing multiple FRs every two years, which, while not a bad thing in theory, is probably a non-starter from the very beginning.

 

[Ghery]

One of the first questions I ask as a CFI at a (B)FR is "Is there anything you would like to brush up on or do?" You are hiring me to help you with this review. I've had pilots that felt uncomfortable with some aspect of their flying that wanted to work on it with a CFI. I've had others that wanted to try something new, like Commercial maneuvers. I think that is the greatest aspect of the review requirement, it gives a pilot the opportunity to interact with a CFI that they might not have sought out otherwise.

My first FR (and the club requires that we do one annually) years ago was in the club's Arrow. The first time I had flown it. My CFI said that was a great time to try something new. He was right, it was.

 

[TommyG]

WhenI give a BFR I see what kind of flying and how active they are. There are time we are just waiting for the Hobbs to hit 1 hour, there are times when I have to tell them we need more flight time before I sign them off.