Aviation Aggravations

[SCCutler]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I've never heard that response.

Greg gets to fly out of ORD, holy and special ground (along with the airspace which surrounds it), where aircraft without APUs are heavily discouraged...

 

[RMCN172RG]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

So, like, I should make 270 degree turns to the left instead of 90 degree turns to the right?

That's because you're from Michigan

 

[John Collins]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Stating the fix is better than a guess on the distance.

Ron,

You are remaining in the pattern at my airport on downwind. I report RALLY inbound. Where am I?

Don't bother to look it up, you can't do this in the pattern.

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Sorry, Steven, but I (and, from the sound of it, most of the others here) disagree. A guess on the distance at least gives non-instrument pilots some direction to start looking in.

But do they always look? Suppose an inbound aircraft reports a five mile final when he's fifteen miles out. A guy on downwind hears the report but dismisses it without looking because he'll be off the runway before the other guy's close. He eventually does spot him, just as he's about to turn final.

Let me restate, again, that I have not advocated stating the fix exclusively.

A fix that's not depicted on the sectional (and I strongly suspect that the vast majority are not) is useless to the non-instrument pilot.

Most airway fixes are depicted on the sectional, most approach fixes are not.

What purpose does it serve to give someone information he can't use?

Absolutely none. What purpose does it serve to give someone information he can't rely on?

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Ron,

You are remaining in the pattern at my airport on downwind. I report RALLY inbound. Where am I?

Don't bother to look it up, you can't do this in the pattern.

Why can't I look it up in the pattern? If I was actually in that scenario I'd have the plates in front of me and the charts nearby and I'd have familiarized myself with your airport before I departed mine.

I tried to look RALLY up anyway. It's not in Order 7350.8E Location Identifiers, and it's not in the AVNIS or NFDC databases. Best guess is you're reporting an obsolete fix.

Here's a scenario for you:

I am remaining in the pattern at your airport on downwind. You report ten miles out inbound. How do I know you're actually there?

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I'm not arguing this point any further. Or, at least provide a valid argument against mixed traffic.

Provide a valid argument against mixing aircraft of widely disparate speeds? The argument against that is aircraft of widely disparate speeds don't mix well.

There is no standard pattern in Bravo's or Charlie's. All traffic is vectored as needed for sequencing. That can be anything from entering on a left-downwind to going north for fifteen miles or so then brought back in on 17L.

For us small planes, it could be doing left-360s over downtown Austin waiting for seven airliners to land before crossing over 17R and landing on 17L. This was a recent occurrence.

There's no standard pattern at any controlled field, doesn't matter what class the airspace is. The question was; "How does the tower and TRACON at that busy Class C handle a high performance arrival when there's a lot of activity in the pattern? Do they have it join the pattern?" It appears they don't.

Are you presenting sincere questions or just arguing? I'm sensing the latter.

Tell ya what, if I decide to post an insincere question I'll identify it with one ot those annoying smilies.

 

[John Collins]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Why can't I look it up in the pattern? If I was actually in that scenario I'd have the plates in front of me and the charts nearby and I'd have familiarized myself with your airport before I departed mine.

I tried to look RALLY up anyway. It's not in Order 7350.8E Location Identifiers, and it's not in the AVNIS or NFDC databases. Best guess is you're reporting an obsolete fix.

Here's a scenario for you:

I am remaining in the pattern at your airport on downwind. You report ten miles out inbound. How do I know you're actually there?

Steve,

RALLY is not an obsolete fix. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0812/05361IL2.PDF

You don't know I am actually where I reported, one must always keep their scan going for traffic regardless of the report. However, it is unreasonable to expect that a pilot who is not familiar with the airport, particularly a VFR pilot, to usefully use a position report based on an IFR procedure fix. If you believe it is useful, you are in the clear minority.

 

[Ddayle]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Yea, it get's old really fast. Same with the guys that insist on calling themselves "Captain" even though they've never really earned the title.

So who made you the ratings god that decides who is & who is not entitled to be "captain"? If some Yahoo at podunk airlines decides his chief pilot is Captain why can't I decide that the PIC of MY airplane is not also the Captian? If a rowboat has a captain then so does a C-150. The 150 is NOT flying itself, it needs A PILOT , A CAPTIAN. I have the white shirt , the epalets & wings. I AM the Captian. If YOU don't like it , TOUGH. I have the same rights and responcibiltys as every other pilot , including YOU. DaveR

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Steve,

RALLY is not an obsolete fix. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0812/05361IL2.PDF

Odd that it does not appear in the order or databases.

You don't know I am actually where I reported, one must always keep their scan going for traffic regardless of the report.

Exactly, a distance without knowing how it was obtained is not very useful.

However, it is unreasonable to expect that a pilot who is not familiar with the airport, particularly a VFR pilot, to usefully use a position report based on an IFR procedure fix. If you believe it is useful, you are in the clear minority.

People keep telling me that, even though I never said anything to the contrary.

 

[Ted]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Seeing as a number of aircraft have GPSs these days, the distance out from the airport shouldn't be all that off.

Furthermore, if you're paying attention (which you ought to be) and know someone is approaching, you should be looking for that person, and should also state your position. For example, a few weeks back on a flight I did, a Cheyenne was on the ILS inbound when I was ready for takeoff. Center advised me of it when I picked up my release, and said to communicate with him. I would have anyway. So I get on, pick him up on frequency, and ask how far out he is and if I have time for takeoff (I knew I did, but I wanted to get his OK first since he's the one in the air). He said they were still a few minutes out, I had plenty of time. Since I was ready for takeoff, I took off and went. I stayed far off the ILS course until I made visual contact with him. All was well (visual conditions).

The point is, y'all can talk to eachother, and it's a good idea. You make estimates to the best of your ability. Identifying a fix is worthless to a VFR pilot, and whenever I'm at an uncontrolled field I try to make sure I'm giving as accurate as possible locations in terms of rough direction and number of miles out. Seems to work well and give everyone the best idea. If I'm on an approach, I'll state that as well, but that's about it.

Oh, and I absolutely HATE listening to 122.8 at any time. There are so many frequencies out there, why do they have to assign the same one to so many airports, all within radio distance of eachother? Seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to give them different frequencies, but I could be wrong. When I'm going to an airport with one of the popular frequencies I'll call in on it 10 miles out, but when I'm leaving I just try to get high enough above the airport that I'm not a factor as quickly as possible, and then switch over to whatever approach/center/etc. So I can get on a frequency that bothers me less and pick up my flight following/IFR.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Would a call in this format be reasonable:

STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME - FINAL APPROACH FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE FIVE STRAWN.

Since I don't necessarily know where (NAME - FINAL APPROACH FIX) is, you might also say (DISTANCE) MILES (MAGNETIC DIRECTION) or such.
Add either LOW PASS or LANDING so we know whether you will be going missed.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Steve,

RALLY is not an obsolete fix. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0812/05361IL2.PDF

You don't know I am actually where I reported, one must always keep their scan going for traffic regardless of the report. However, it is unreasonable to expect that a pilot who is not familiar with the airport, particularly a VFR pilot, to usefully use a position report based on an IFR procedure fix. If you believe it is useful, you are in the clear minority.

The obvious solution seems to be to ban IFR operations in VMC. (just kidding - really)

edit: I take back the just kidding after reading this in another thread

"On the other pilots side just because ATC released him he still has to depart VFR until he is in controlled airspace. Looking at the chart that means he is see and avoid until 700 feet AGL"

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

So who made you the ratings god that decides who is & who is not entitled to be "captain"? If some Yahoo at podunk airlines decides his chief pilot is Captain why can't I decide that the PIC of MY airplane is not also the Captian? If a rowboat has a captain then so does a C-150. The 150 is NOT flying itself, it needs A PILOT , A CAPTIAN. I have the white shirt , the epalets & wings. I AM the Captian. If YOU don't like it , TOUGH. I have the same rights and responcibiltys as every other pilot , including YOU. DaveR

Sure. While you're at it, go take a first aid course, then afterward get a white lab coat and a stethoscope ( a child's play one will do) and go down to the hospital and tell everyone to call you "Doctor".

I have the same rights and responcibiltys as every other pilot , including YOU. DaveR

Uh, no you don't.

 

[John Collins]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Steve,

If I were a tower controller and not a pilot, I would have your perspective of the situation as I am sure you hear bad position reports all the time and the inclusion of a waypoint fix provides you more precise position information, although even those reports can be wrong. You are expected to know all of the waypoints relevant to the airspace you are controlling.

But as a pilot, with the high workload involved in maneuvering to a landing, a position report using a waypoint that I am not familiar with is has limited usefulness as it only indicates to me that someone else is near the airport. If I am at a towered airport, even if I don't know the waypoint position, the tower controller definitely should. If I am at an airport without a tower, no such help is available.

 

[Ddayle]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Sure. While you're at it, go take a first aid course, then afterward get a white lab coat and a stethoscope ( a child's play one will do) and go down to the hospital and tell everyone to call you "Doctor".



Uh, no you don't.

OOPs sorry , I forgot you appointed yourself the ratings god. What a heavy load you bear. With that ego how does your head fit thru the cockpit door? DaveR

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

OOPs sorry , I forgot you appointed yourself the ratings god. What a heavy load you bear. With that ego how does your head fit thru the cockpit door? DaveR

Not self appointed anything. The titles I have (along with the ratings) I earned through hard work and dedication.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Since I don't necessarily know where (NAME - FINAL APPROACH FIX) is, you might also say (DISTANCE) MILES (MAGNETIC DIRECTION) or such.
Add either LOW PASS or LANDING so we know whether you will be going missed.

While I agree that it is a better idea for IFR pilots to announce, "five mile final for runway 35" or whatever, here's a hint for VFR pilots. Pilots on the approach will normally announce the final approach fix inbound, which is in the vicinity of 4-7 miles out. As long as they also include the runway in their announcement you have a clue where to look for the traffic even if you don't know the name of the fix.

 

[Ddayle]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Not self appointed anything. The titles I have (along with the ratings) I earned through hard work and dedication.

Same here.

 

[John Collins]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

My aggravations are:

1) "Any traffic in the pattern, please respond"

I don't answer these unless I am giving a relevant position report anyway. I want to know where you are, and this is often committed. I also don't want the frequency congested when I may need to use it.

2) da da da da landing runway zero two

When they paint a zero on the runway, I'll stop calling it runway 2

3) Here in the South, fixing to do something or taking the runway

I always want to know what they are fixing or if they plan on returning the runway when they are done with it.

But my real pet peeve is with a pilot who turns base and still has more than 90 degrees to turn on final. They set themselves up for an overshoot and have poor visibility of the runway while still flying away from it.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Not self appointed anything. The titles I have (along with the ratings) I earned through hard work and dedication.

Yeah, but "Captain" is not an FAA title, as far as I know. Your company may have given you that title, but the FAA refers to you as the PIC. In that way it's somewhat different than "Doctor".

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Seeing as a number of aircraft have GPSs these days, the distance out from the airport shouldn't be all that off.

Perhaps GPS derived distance should be reported as such, like DME derived distance is.

The point is, y'all can talk to eachother, and it's a good idea. You make estimates to the best of your ability. Identifying a fix is worthless to a VFR pilot, and whenever I'm at an uncontrolled field I try to make sure I'm giving as accurate as possible locations in terms of rough direction and number of miles out. Seems to work well and give everyone the best idea. If I'm on an approach, I'll state that as well, but that's about it.

Identifying a fix may be worthless to a VFR pilot, but inaccurate distance is worthless to all pilots. I assume everyone is making distance reports as accurately as they can, that doesn't change the fact that reports are often quite inaccurate.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Yeah, but "Captain" is not an FAA title, as far as I know. Your company may have given you that title, but the FAA refers to you as the PIC. In that way it's somewhat different than "Doctor".

It's not an FAA definition (although the FAA does address me as "Captain") but a professional title.

From Wikipedia:
The pilot in command (PIC) of an aircraft is the person aboard the aircraft who is ultimately responsible for its operation and safety during flight. This would be the "captain" in a typical two- or three-pilot flight crew, or "pilot" if there is only one certified and qualified pilot at the controls of an aircraft. The PIC must be legally certified to operate the aircraft for the specific flight and flight conditions, but need not be actually manipulating the controls at any given moment. The PIC is the person legally in charge of the aircraft and its flight safety and operation, and would normally be the primary person liable for an infraction of any flight rule.

My original post was to point out the silliness that some people go to in order to stroke an ego. I'm not going to respect anyone who throws the title in front of their name when they have never done anything to earn it as it disrespects the ones that have.

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Since I don't necessarily know where (NAME - FINAL APPROACH FIX) is, you might also say (DISTANCE) MILES (MAGNETIC DIRECTION) or such.
Add either LOW PASS or LANDING so we know whether you will be going missed.

I do. The example was lifted from AC 90-42F.

 

[Ddayle]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Of course you are right. you don't have the same responciblities, as part of a "flight crew', you have additional personell to do the same jobs as a single PIC. Yes you have people to command& a bigger faster more complex A/C, but the solo PIC has to be pilot navigator co-pilot flight engenneer and steward. . You do not have the same level of responcibilty as a solo pilot does. Keep trying. DaveR

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Of course you are right. you don't have the same responciblities, as part of a "flight crew', you have additional personell to do the same jobs as a single PIC. Yes you have people to command& a bigger faster more complex A/C, but the solo PIC has to be pilot navigator co-pilot flight engenneer and steward. . You do not have the same level of responcibilty as a solo pilot does. Keep trying. DaveR

Yea, you're right, what was I thinking?

 

[Everskyward]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I'm not going to respect anyone who throws the title in front of their name when they have never done anything to earn it as it disrespects the ones that have.

Whatever...

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Steve,

If I were a tower controller and not a pilot, I would have your perspective of the situation....

To have my perspective you'd have to be a tower controller, approach controller, and center controller, as well as a pilot.

....as I am sure you hear bad position reports all the time.....

I think you'd be amazed by how often and how bad.

....and the inclusion of a waypoint fix provides you more precise position information, although even those reports can be wrong.

Well, yes, they can be, but I can't recall ever receiving a report from a tracked aircraft overhead a NAVAID, or at an intersection, waypoint, or DME fix, that was not actually at that location. That's why I trust a report at a fix and don't trust a report of just some distance from the field.

But as a pilot, with the high workload involved in maneuvering to a landing, a position report using a waypoint that I am not familiar with is has limited usefulness as it only indicates to me that someone else is near the airport.

If I'm going to an unfamiliar field I familiarize myself with the local airspace before departure.

Let's take another look at your scenario and add a little twist. A VFR pilot is in the pattern at Rock Hill on downwind. You report RALLY inbound at Bryant Field. Should the VFR pilot know where you are? Does he even need to pay attention to your full report?

 

[AuntPeggy]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Not self appointed anything. The titles I have (along with the ratings) I earned through hard work and dedication.

Yeah, but "Captain" is not an FAA title, as far as I know. Your company may have given you that title, but the FAA refers to you as the PIC. In that way it's somewhat different than "Doctor".

Then call me "Master", please.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I do. The example was lifted from AC 90-42F.

I recognize that, but it seems to me that we are trying to come up with a best practice for announcing your IFR intentions to VFR pilots with varying degrees of knowledge about IFR.

Because I've been flying for many months, now, I know to look for you to be descending, not at pattern altitude, straight in. I can guess that you will probably just fly over the runway and not land. But I can also remember the days when I didn't know that.

 

[John Collins]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

To have my perspective you'd have to be a tower controller, approach controller, and center controller, as well as a pilot.

Sorry, the database search only pulled up your status as a controller.

[/quote]If I'm going to an unfamiliar field I familiarize myself with the local airspace before departure.[/quote]

This is overkill in my opinion, and can't be expected of a VFR pilot.

[/quote]Let's take another look at your scenario and add a little twist. A VFR pilot is in the pattern at Rock Hill on downwind. You report RALLY inbound at Bryant Field. Should the VFR pilot know where you are? Does he even need to pay attention to your full report? [/quote]

My report consist of "Rock Hill traffic, N1234 5.5 miles south, straight in, landing RWY 2 Rock Hill". I normally report my position and intentions when I am between 5 and 10 miles out on CTAF when conditions are VFR. In this instance, I may be a factor for an aircraft on downwind in the pattern or any other aircraft monitoring the frequency. I will usually give one more position report when I am about 3 Mile final.

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Sorry, the database search only pulled up your status as a controller.

I believe it's on two pages.

This is overkill in my opinion, and can't be expected of a VFR pilot.

It's what I do, not what I expect of others. I see no reason why a VFR pilot can't do it at his home field, however.

Let's take another look at your scenario and add a little twist. A VFR pilot is in the pattern at Rock Hill on downwind. You report RALLY inbound at Bryant Field. Should the VFR pilot know where you are? Does he even need to pay attention to your full report?

My report consist of "Rock Hill traffic, N1234 5.5 miles south, straight in, landing RWY 2 Rock Hill". I normally report my position and intentions when I am between 5 and 10 miles out on CTAF when conditions are VFR. In this instance, I may be a factor for an aircraft on downwind in the pattern or any other aircraft monitoring the frequency. I will usually give one more position report when I am about 3 Mile final.

That's fine, but it doesn't answer my questions.

 

[Diana]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Then call me "Master", please.

My ex-husband used to call me the "Little General", but I probably won't be using that title in the airplane...besides, I don't think he meant it as a compliment.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

My ex-husband used to call me the "Little General", but I probably won't be using that title in the airplane...besides, I don't think he meant it as a compliment.

One of the photographers I used to fly with would call me "The Commander". Somehow I don't think that was a compliment either.

Nowadays I answer to "Hey you!"

 

[John Collins]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Let's take another look at your scenario and add a little twist. A VFR pilot is in the pattern at Rock Hill on downwind. You report RALLY inbound at Bryant Field. Should the VFR pilot know where you are? Does he even need to pay attention to your full report?

Re-reading your questions, to the first question, I would answer that the VFR pilot should not be expected to know where you are. To the second question, he should pay attention to the full report, who knows, it might have useful information for the pilot. To a local pilot, reporting over the IBM plant may mean something, to someone who is not aware of the local landmarks, it has very little value.

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I recognize that, but it seems to me that we are trying to come up with a best practice for announcing your IFR intentions to VFR pilots with varying degrees of knowledge about IFR.

I prefer to report the fix by name and also state the distance.

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Re-reading your questions, to the first question, I would answer that the VFR pilot should not be expected to know where you are. To the second question, he should pay attention to the full report, who knows, it might have useful information for the pilot.

Why should he listen to a report for Bryant Field if he's on downwind to Rock Hill? What useful information might it have?

 

[Ddayle]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

My aggrivation is egotistical pilots who think they are better than everyone else. A pilot is a pilot. It does require extra effort, more experience and supposedly extra knowledge obtain the ratings to be an arial Taxi or bus driver, & I applaud that. However just having the raings does not automaticly make you a better pilot. I will agree that there are more good pilots with ratings and likely more crappy pilots that have only the PPL. but it is not a given. I fly out of KBFI ,Boeing,(Seattle), and hear plenty of ATP type's who botch it up, & incur the wrath of the tower. Bringing my plane & passenges safely back to terra firma is as important & as serious a matter to me as is should be to the fellow over my head in the 777 on final for Sea-Tac 34L. He (or she) & I are both pilots, both the captain's of our aircraft. DaveR

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

The pilot in command (PIC) of an aircraft is the person aboard the aircraft who is ultimately responsible for its operation and safety during flight. This would be the "captain" in a typical two- or three-pilot flight crew, or "pilot" if there is only one certified and qualified pilot at the controls of an aircraft.

Frankly, there are many people that command multi-crew aircraft that have no right calling themselves "captain" and plenty of single-crew pilots that have every right to call themselves "captain." I much prefer Henning's idea of a captain in this thread.

I'm not going to respect anyone who throws the title in front of their name when they have never done anything to earn it as it disrespects the ones that have.

I can understand that, but...

My original post was to point out the silliness that some people go to in order to stroke an ego.

So, what exactly is it YOU are doing then, besides stroking your own?

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I'm getting a headache.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

So, what exactly is it YOU are doing then, besides stroking your own?

Didn't say I was, and if you had bothered to read my post you will have read where I stated clearly I don't use the title outside of my workplace, nor do I sign my name with it in front of it.

I don't pretend to be something I'm not.