Aviation Aggravations

Re: Aviation Aggrivations

My aggrivation is egotistical pilots who think they are better than everyone else. A pilot is a pilot. It does require extra effort, more experience and supposedly extra knowledge obtain the ratings to be an arial Taxi or bus driver,.............

You forgot to add "use correct spelling, grammar and syntax also".....:D
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Do we have an emoticon for ****ing contests? We have, like, three or four going on at one time here.

:rolleyes:
 
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Re: Aviation Aggrivations

A particular tower controller that calls traffic for *everyone* even with 4 or 5 in the pattern, several more inbound. He just keeps talking and talking and talking which doesn't leave much time for any pilot to get a word in edge-wise.

There used to be one of those at KSEE (Gillespie). She issued instructions that sounded like her words were being fired from a machine gun. I asked her to repeat what she said when I heard my call sign in a jumble of words. Slightly irritated at having to repeat, she fired off another burst at me. I responded with "your going to have to slow down so we can understand what you are saying." ( and no, I did not add "honey" at the end.)

She then responded to me with some very slow, contemptuous, like she was talking to a three year old, instructions. The anger oozing out of every carefully spaced word.

I acknowledged and thanked her.

She then immediately started up her machine gun voice projection device and started in again. Then she just stopped and started transmitting instructions like an actual air traffic controller. Almost like someone in the tower reprimanded her. :)

John
 
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Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Why should he listen to a report for Bryant Field if he's on downwind to Rock Hill? What useful information might it have?

Steven,

KUZA, Rock Hill-York County Airport, Bryant Field located at Rock Hill, SC.

They are one and the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Do we have an emoticon for ****ing contest? We have, like, three or four going on at one time here.
I'm about to start another one:

2) da da da da landing runway zero two

When they paint a zero on the runway, I'll stop calling it runway 2
I do say "runway zero two" in order to lessen confusion: if I say "two", did you hear runway 2, or did you hear only part of "two zero"? "Three" or part of "three four"? "Seven" or part of "one seven"? The whole point of radio communications procedure is to be as clear as possible, and this one seems like the way to do that, to me.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I'm about to start another one:


I do say "runway zero two" in order to lessen confusion: if I say "two", did you hear runway 2, or did you hear only part of "two zero"? "Three" or part of "three four"? "Seven" or part of "one seven"? The whole point of radio communications procedure is to be as clear as possible, and this one seems like the way to do that, to me.


It is for exactly this reason that I stopped flying to airports with runways which are aligned between 001* and 009*- the hazards are simply greater than I am willing to accept.

The only exception is when I fly to a controlled field, in which event I'll accept a clearance to land on the affected runway- but only if they articulate BOTH NUMBERS!
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

The thing that aggravates me is when pilots get into arguments on the advisory frequency, and I'm trying to get a word in edgewise to make my position reports. Fortunately, this seems to be rare.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

It's not an FAA definition (although the FAA does address me as "Captain") but a professional title.
Couple of friends flew a Super Cub around the world, about fifteen years ago. A lot of the third world has no conception of privately-owed, privately-flown small aircraft. But they do know what airline pilots are...so Bob and Diane wore white shirts with captain's and first officer's stripes on the epaulets.

Sometimes it's not ego as much as protective coloration... :smile:

Ron Wanttaja
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

So who made you the ratings god that decides who is & who is not entitled to be "captain"? If some Yahoo at podunk airlines decides his chief pilot is Captain why can't I decide that the PIC of MY airplane is not also the Captian? If a rowboat has a captain then so does a C-150. The 150 is NOT flying itself, it needs A PILOT , A CAPTIAN. I have the white shirt , the epalets & wings. I AM the Captian. If YOU don't like it , TOUGH. I have the same rights and responcibiltys as every other pilot , including YOU. DaveR

You can call yourself anything you want. You appear as an insecure and pompous fool, but whatever... Captain is an honorarium that others bestow upon you, not something you bestow upon yourself. However, a rowboat does not have a captain, a rowboat has a coxswain. Actually, the term Captain isn't an official term on a non Navy vessel. The official term is Master. My license reads as such:
3106077065_0e9606207a.jpg


3106909660_895a3f5bca.jpg


and my STCW which is the international document:

3106910004_fb4d263f79.jpg


You don't see the word "Captain" anywhere do you... Also, Captain denotes multiple required crew.
 
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Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I do say "runway zero two" in order to lessen confusion: if I say "two", did you hear runway 2, or did you hear only part of "two zero"? "Three" or part of "three four"? "Seven" or part of "one seven"? The whole point of radio communications procedure is to be as clear as possible, and this one seems like the way to do that, to me.

The accepted procedure is to end the transmission with the airport name. I shouldn't hear you say "....runway two zero." or "....runway zero two." It should be "....runway two zero Podunk" or "....runway two Podunk."
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

It is for exactly this reason that I stopped flying to airports with runways which are aligned between 001* and 009*- the hazards are simply greater than I am willing to accept.

That's only two runways, runway three six and runway one.

The only exception is when I fly to a controlled field, in which event I'll accept a clearance to land on the affected runway- but only if they articulate BOTH NUMBERS!

So you'll land on runway three six at a controlled field, but not at an uncontrolled field, and you won't land on runway one at all. Is that correct?
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I do say "runway zero two" in order to lessen confusion: if I say "two", did you hear runway 2, or did you hear only part of "two zero"? "Three" or part of "three four"? "Seven" or part of "one seven"? The whole point of radio communications procedure is to be as clear as possible, and this one seems like the way to do that, to me.

Those questions would only be asked by other pilots listening in on the frequency IF there was another runway on the field AND it had a two in it's alignment as well.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

The accepted procedure is to end the transmission with the airport name. I shouldn't hear you say "....runway two zero." or "....runway zero two." It should be "....runway two zero Podunk" or "....runway two Podunk."
That doesn't mean my mic might not have cut out at just the wrong moment, or someone else pushed the button on a radio nearby and wiped me out, or lots of other circumstances. Radio communications and radio systems aren't perfect.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Those questions would only be asked by other pilots listening in on the frequency IF there was another runway on the field AND it had a two in it's alignment as well.
Such as, say, runway 2/20? That makes a difference... There are also lots of airports with a 18/36 and a 6/24, or a 1/19 and a 11/29, or any number of other similar combinations.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

That doesn't mean my mic might not have cut out at just the wrong moment, or someone else pushed the button on a radio nearby and wiped me out, or lots of other circumstances. Radio communications and radio systems aren't perfect.

Unspoken or cut out, it's incomplete either way.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

That doesn't mean my mic might not have cut out at just the wrong moment, or someone else pushed the button on a radio nearby and wiped me out, or lots of other circumstances. Radio communications and radio systems aren't perfect.
Unspoken or cut out, it's incomplete either way.
Indeed. Why not add a little bit of redundancy to help in such a situation? One word that takes very little time to say.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I'm about to start another one:


I do say "runway zero two" in order to lessen confusion: if I say "two", did you hear runway 2, or did you hear only part of "two zero"? "Three" or part of "three four"? "Seven" or part of "one seven"? The whole point of radio communications procedure is to be as clear as possible, and this one seems like the way to do that, to me.

Jay,

It doesn't lessen the confusion, if I only hear the zero, was it zero two or two zero? That plus the mind can play tricks on you and if you want to hear two zero when someone says zero two, it can accommodate you.

I don't try to correct anyone who uses it, it just aggravates me.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Indeed. Why not add a little bit of redundancy to help in such a situation? One word that takes very little time to say.

A superfluous word that could create confusion. Take your runway 2/20 as an example. The proper transmissions would end with "....runway two zero Podunk" or "....runway two Podunk." If they don't end with Podunk, for whatever reason, I know I've heard an incomplete transmission. But if you're adding the superfluous leading zero, "....runway zero two Podunk", I don't know if you're using runway two or if you've transposed digits.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Such as, say, runway 2/20? That makes a difference... There are also lots of airports with a 18/36 and a 6/24, or a 1/19 and a 11/29, or any number of other similar combinations.

However prevailing winds and traffic patterns would give you an indicator in the situation of 2/20. With opposing runways the questions shouldn't be there nearly as often. Plus, if you have questions as to whether or not their mic cut out ask them to clarify.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

It doesn't lessen the confusion, if I only hear the zero, was it zero two or two zero? That plus the mind can play tricks on you and if you want to hear two zero when someone says zero two, it can accommodate you.
If you only hear the zero, then you know something's wrong. If you only hear the two, then you don't know if something's wrong.

I don't try to correct anyone who uses it, it just aggravates me.
Do people saying headings as three digits with leading zero(es) bother you? It's the same principle.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I have found it to be beneficial to wear attire that sets me apart as air crew when flying overseas: Mexico especially. Just having everyone get out in jeans and t-shirts doesn't help the arrival and military folks know who is flying the plane; and, they need to know. Although I have been a captain in the military and an aircraft commander in a crewed aircraft, I don't wear a captain's shirt. Just a nice white shirt, slacks and a small set of wings. Seems to help all around. They usually do refer to me as captain, but I don't plant that seed. The captain does have to attest to customs declarations and is responsible for aircraft security in many of these places.

Best,

Dave
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

A superfluous word that could create confusion. Take your runway 2/20 as an example.... But if you're adding the superfluous leading zero, "....runway zero two Podunk", I don't know if you're using runway two or if you've transposed digits.

roncachamp,

When you give someone a vector heading of 20 degrees, how you say the heading? and why?

Barb
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I think the thing I understand the least when flying is when center calls traffic too far away for me to possibly visually see. Just had a nice fella call a Lear opposite direction 12 miles ahead; 1,000 feet above. I've found unless the sun catches things just right, it's difficult to see things more than three or four miles ahead, but I do respond that traffic is not in sight and I do start looking. I've also gotten traffic alerts for someone several thousand feet above of below that don't seem to be of much help unless the other plane is climbing or descending.

I do have to add to the VFR flight following comment. Couple times I've been in some pretty bad stuff and needed to deviate but couldn't get on the frequency because an unorganized fella was trying to get VFR flight following by hummin and hawin. Of course, I have to get clearance to do anything. The VFR fella is just getting advisories. So, it'a bit frustrating to listen to a four or five minute back and forth for what should be a simple procedure. I also think Center shouldn't put up with this if it's busy and weather is bad. I had to deviate without permission on a couple occassions to avoid towering cumulous while someone was taking a long time to give VFR flight following information. Had to later fill out a NASA report to cover the deviation and explain why it occurrred.

Best,

Dave
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I have found it to be beneficial to wear attire that sets me apart as air crew when flying overseas: Mexico especially. Just having everyone get out in jeans and t-shirts doesn't help the arrival and military folks know who is flying the plane; and, they need to know. Although I have been a captain in the military and an aircraft commander in a crewed aircraft, I don't wear a captain's shirt. Just a nice white shirt, slacks and a small set of wings. Seems to help all around. They usually do refer to me as captain, but I don't plant that seed. The captain does have to attest to customs declarations and is responsible for aircraft security in many of these places.

Best,

Dave
Mexico is about the only place I have ever been addressed as "captain" except when people are teasing, even though the shirt and epaulets are part of the uniform I am required to wear most of the time and "captain" is part of my job title with my employer. Dunno why people are so sensitive about this. Maybe in the airline world people are more possessive of their titles than they are in corporate/charter. :dunno:
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I don't insist on being called Captain, but it might help if you're trying to get me to do something :smile:

Alternatively, Greatest Pilot Ever works just as well.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Should our VFR pilot be expected to know that?

Steven,

You are incorrigible. What's the point?

In fact, the answer is no. I have never heard Rock Hill referred to as Bryant field on the CTAF frequency or by Charlotte Approach Control and I am sure if you were not a member of the airport commission, you would not know that the Rock Hill Airport is named in honor of Mr. Bryant.

I called Flight Service for South Carolina, Raleigh Flight Service, and Charlotte Approach Control and none of them knew where Bryant field was. I am done with this colloquy.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

roncachamp,

When you give someone a vector heading of 20 degrees, how you say the heading?

"Heading zero two zero"

Because FAA Order JO 7110.65S paragraph 2-4-17.g. NUMBERS USAGE directs me to say it that way.
 
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Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Steven,

You are incorrigible. What's the point?

In fact, the answer is no. I have never heard Rock Hill referred to as Bryant field on the CTAF frequency or by Charlotte Approach Control and I am sure if you were not a member of the airport commission, you would not know that the Rock Hill Airport is named in honor of Mr. Bryant.

I called Flight Service for South Carolina, Raleigh Flight Service, and Charlotte Approach Control and none of them knew where Bryant field was. I am done with this colloquy.

John:

Sorry you're running into this. In general, this is a great group of folks that are wonderful to socialize with if you come to one of the fly-ins. Some folks don't address folks on here quite as nicely as they might in person.

BTY, great to see you post on here. Most folks probably don't know how many articles you've written primarily in the avionics area and how great you are at detecting great Bar-b-que!

I'll be in Greenville, SC for the holidays if there's any way you can break free.

Best,

Dave
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Steven,

You are incorrigible. What's the point?

I'm just trying to determine what knowledge level can be reasonably expected of VFR pilots.

In fact, the answer is no. I have never heard Rock Hill referred to as Bryant field on the CTAF frequency or by Charlotte Approach Control and I am sure if you were not a member of the airport commission, you would not know that the Rock Hill Airport is named in honor of Mr. Bryant
Do you feel the IFR inbound was wrong to use Bryant Field in his self-announce transmission?

I'm a history buff, aviation history in particular. I assure you, if I lived in the region, I would know who Mr. Bryant was and why the field was named for him. I would also use "Bryant Field" in all transmissions.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I'm just trying to determine what knowledge level can be reasonably expected of VFR pilots.

For the most part, we're clueless.

But my big aviation aggravations are people who spew the "air molecules arrive at the trailing edge at the same time" - but I've already delivered that rant in another thread.

So, for this thread, I'll throw out the "stall speed increases with bank angle" bovine excrement as another aggravation.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

Should our VFR pilot be expected to know that?

Steven,

You are incorrigible. What's the point?

In fact, the answer is no. I have never heard Rock Hill referred to as Bryant field on the CTAF frequency or by Charlotte Approach Control and I am sure if you were not a member of the airport commission, you would not know that the Rock Hill Airport is named in honor of Mr. Bryant.

I called Flight Service for South Carolina, Raleigh Flight Service, and Charlotte Approach Control and none of them knew where Bryant field was. I am done with this colloquy.
Refer to the Sectional.
 

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Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I think the thing I understand the least when flying is when center calls traffic too far away for me to possibly visually see. Just had a nice fella call a Lear opposite direction 12 miles ahead; 1,000 feet above. I've found unless the sun catches things just right, it's difficult to see things more than three or four miles ahead, but I do respond that traffic is not in sight and I do start looking. I've also gotten traffic alerts for someone several thousand feet above of below that don't seem to be of much help unless the other plane is climbing or descending.

Traffic several thousand feet above is a curious call but on the otherhand a lear 1000' above and 12 miles out closes pretty darn fast. If they called it 3 miles out it'd probably be past you by the time the call was done. Perhaps they are also just calling it so that when you do see it you don't get jittery thinking its at the same altitude.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I think the thing I understand the least when flying is when center calls traffic too far away for me to possibly visually see. Just had a nice fella call a Lear opposite direction 12 miles ahead; 1,000 feet above. I've found unless the sun catches things just right, it's difficult to see things more than three or four miles ahead, but I do respond that traffic is not in sight and I do start looking. I've also gotten traffic alerts for someone several thousand feet above of below that don't seem to be of much help unless the other plane is climbing or descending.

I do have to add to the VFR flight following comment. Couple times I've been in some pretty bad stuff and needed to deviate but couldn't get on the frequency because an unorganized fella was trying to get VFR flight following by hummin and hawin. Of course, I have to get clearance to do anything. The VFR fella is just getting advisories. So, it'a bit frustrating to listen to a four or five minute back and forth for what should be a simple procedure. I also think Center shouldn't put up with this if it's busy and weather is bad. I had to deviate without permission on a couple occassions to avoid towering cumulous while someone was taking a long time to give VFR flight following information. Had to later fill out a NASA report to cover the deviation and explain why it occurrred.

Best,

Dave
I have the same issue with those traffic calls. Every once in a while, I get a call for traffic >10 miles away. At night, that can actually be helpful. During the day, I stand no chance of seeing it. I start looking, but I often just forget where the traffic was after a minute or so, especially when I then get more traffic calls....for the most part, I think controller experience has something to do with this. If I'm in the flight levels, I don't mind the long range traffic calls, but at 10,000', they're not useful.

People who take up a lot of time getting VFR advisories can be frustrating. It also doesn't help our image with ATC. When I've had to deviate around cells, I try to request deviations left and right of course as necessary and quite often avoid having to make additional requests.


Felix's subconscious launches an attack on Jesse while on Forbidden Planet <g>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdF_VXTCwc&feature=related
Great, now I've just used up 6 minutes of my time watching this! :smilewinkgrin:

-Felix
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

If I'm in the flight levels, I don't mind the long range traffic calls, but at 10,000', they're not useful.
I always thought it was strange that ATC gave traffic calls in the flight levels because everyone is under positive control. I think Adam might be onto something when he says they may be just courtesy calls so you don't get nervous and try to change altitude or course on your own.
 
Re: Aviation Aggrivations

I always thought it was strange that ATC gave traffic calls in the flight levels because everyone is under positive control. I think Adam might be onto something when he says they may be just courtesy calls so you don't get nervous and try to change altitude or course on your own.
I suspect it also helps when you can establish visual contact because it gives them less stringent separation minimums. That way, they don't have to vector you or have you change altitude.
 
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