Autopilot for Turbo Arrow

[albertomannil]

Hello friends, I'm looking to replace an Altimatic IIIB in a Turbo Arrow. Basically, I see two options:

GFC500 or Aerocruze 100.

Obviously the Garmin route is the most correct one, but more costly too. Some suggest 275s instead of the G5s, and might as well add Pitch trim and Yaw Damper and suddenly we're going the most expensive route...

The other alternative is a Aerocruze 100 with UAvionix AV30s. My only concern with this is the BK reputation... Is it still that bad dealing with them? Not too concerned over the AV30s.

GPS would be the same for both options, probably a Garmin GPS175.

Also know Trig exists but know very little about them.

What is your opinion?

Thank you!

 

[MountainDude]

A friend has the aerocruze 100 + AV-30 + GPS175 and loves it. I watched it do an approach, and it was smooth and flawless.

 

[Hang 4]

I'd go Garmin and ditch the yaw damper, not much need in an Arrow and Pitch trim is also a luxury vs required if you are trying to save $. Trim Servo is way back in the tail in a PA28 and that adds a bunch of labor cost too.

 

[TCABM]

My calculus on these things is what are you using the plane for and what navigator currently exists in the plane. Build around the navigator for best compatibility.

I do think two-axis auto pilot is worth the spend, especially if you plan to fly IFR.

 

[Ryan Klems]

I think it greatly depends on what you are planning on doing with the plane. As it stands with the latest AFMS, the Trutrak still has more significant limitations. 700' altitude and may not authorized for coupled instrument approaches. It is _capable_ of coupled approaches, and from feedback I've heard, flies them just fine, it is just not legal. If that is important to you, it is kind of a big issue. The GFC 500 is approved for coupled instrument approaches to 200'. I think both are capable autopilots, if you just want something for making cross countries less work and something that could shoot an approach in an emergency, the Aerocruze is a cost effective option, if you are planning on doing a lot of IFR flying, the GFC is likely the better choice as things sit today. Unfortunately, I also have zero long term faith in BK in the GA market, so that probably should be weighed as well.

 

[albertomannil]

Thanks all for the insight.

No plans on using the plane for hard IFR. Mostly want an Autopilot for long XCs, and would be coupled to a GNX 375.

I personally prefer a GFC 500 2 axis without pitch trim to BK Aerocruze 100, although the former is more expensive... but the GFC cant be run by a AV30, so next question;

Whats the opinion between G5s and AV30s?

 

[TCABM]

Thanks all for the insight.

No plans on using the plane for hard IFR. Mostly want an Autopilot for long XCs, and would be coupled to a GNX 375.

I personally prefer a GFC 500 2 axis without pitch trim to BK Aerocruze 100, although the former is more expensive... but the GFC cant be run by a AV30, so next question;

Whats the opinion between G5s and AV30s?

Personally? You can ditch the vac with either dual G5s or AV-30s, but with a GNC375, you can’t drive a GFC500 without the G5.

Put differently, with AV-30s, you’ll need a non-G autopilot and you’ve got a mashed together panel. Works for VFR, but so does a trim wheel.

I’d go G across the board given the navigator.

 

[asicer]

Thanks all for the insight.

No plans on using the plane for hard IFR. Mostly want an Autopilot for long XCs, and would be coupled to a GNX 375.

I personally prefer a GFC 500 2 axis without pitch trim to BK Aerocruze 100, although the former is more expensive... but the GFC cant be run by a AV30, so next question;

Whats the opinion between G5s and AV30s?

The G5 will integrate with the Trio while the AV30 currently does not.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hello friends, I'm looking to replace an Altimatic IIIB in a Turbo Arrow. Basically, I see two options:

GFC500 or Aerocruze 100.

Obviously the Garmin route is the most correct one, but more costly too. Some suggest 275s instead of the G5s, and might as well add Pitch trim and Yaw Damper and suddenly we're going the most expensive route...

The other alternative is a Aerocruze 100 with UAvionix AV30s. My only concern with this is the BK reputation... Is it still that bad dealing with them? Not too concerned over the AV30s.

I own a plane that came with damn near everything BK made when it was built.

I can't rip it all out fast enough. BK's new equipment is garbage, and they have made it really difficult to live with them on the old equipment. I still have my King autopilot, but it's going to go away if/when we do the next upgrade. I already have a GI 275 that can drive it AND the GFC500 once the time comes. FWIW, until the local avionics shop's component level repair guy worked his magic, BK wanted $9600 for a used overhaul exchange trim servo!!! That's "fox uniform" pricing. And that was even pre-pandemic, so I'm sure it's worse now.

There's a reason Garmin is so in demand - Their stuff is really good. You may or may not save a little money avoiding them in the beginning, but you will absolutely pay for it in the medium-long term. Save yourself the trouble and just get the Garmin.

 

[albertomannil]

I own a plane that came with damn near everything BK made when it was built.

I can't rip it all out fast enough. BK's new equipment is garbage, and they have made it really difficult to live with them on the old equipment. I still have my King autopilot, but it's going to go away if/when we do the next upgrade. I already have a GI 275 that can drive it AND the GFC500 once the time comes. FWIW, until the local avionics shop's component level repair guy worked his magic, BK wanted $9600 for a used overhaul exchange trim servo!!! That's "fox uniform" pricing. And that was even pre-pandemic, so I'm sure it's worse now.

There's a reason Garmin is so in demand - Their stuff is really good. You may or may not save a little money avoiding them in the beginning, but you will absolutely pay for it in the medium-long term. Save yourself the trouble and just get the Garmin.

Yes it seem one of those situations where inexpensive initially ends up being more expensive in the end.

It seems it'll be dual G5s + GFC500 + GNX 375.

 

[Tom J]

The G5 will integrate with the Trio while the AV30 currently does not.

The AV30's AVHSI was approved and is shipping. I have one in the shop to install in a PA32 with 2 AV30's and a Trio. Per the install manual, they do work together, and have in the experimental world already.

 

[asicer]

The AV30's AVHSI was approved and is shipping. I have one in the shop to install in a PA32 with 2 AV30's and a Trio. Per the install manual, they do work together, and have in the experimental world already.

I stand corrected. I knew it was approved but yours is the first I've heard that has shipped.

 

[TCABM]

I stand corrected. I knew it was approved but yours is the first I've heard that has shipped.

I *think* [mention]Ed Haywood [/mention] did the s/w update on his AV-30HSI.

 

[soarohio]

I installed an Aspen E5 and the Aerocruze 100 two years ago and have had no problems with the setup. This option was $10,000 cheaper than the Garmin option. The Aeorcuze has more limitations than the Garmin but it works for the type of flying I do. I’m sure the Garmin will hold its value longer but if I was worried about return on investment I would not own a plane.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yes it seem one of those situations where inexpensive initially ends up being more expensive in the end.

It seems it'll be dual G5s + GFC500 + GNX 375.

You'll be VERY happy with that setup.

 

[albertomannil]

That will allow me to remove the transponder. Take out the DME and now I have space for an iPad Mini which will make it even more valuable

 

[Nick Geber]

I had a Tru track AP in my Cherokee 235 a few years ago. It was connected to twin G5s and and a G175.

Worked ok. Wasn’t great in turbulence and needed to install a switch between G175 and G5’s and the AP. The AP has ability in GPS will fly “track mode” but if you want to fly a heading you have to switch to G5’s. Also baro setting was a PIA. Let’s say your flying AP on the 175 and you get a new baro setting. You have to set it on the G5, make sure the heading indicator on the G5 HSI is straight ahead, switch the AP to G5 mode so it can get the baro altitude then switch back to the G175 to continue your GPS course. A pain.

Also, the AP constantly prompts you to retrim. Annoying.

I now have an all glass (G3x, 750, GFC-500) in my new plane (Mooney Ovation) and it’s night and day. The GFC 500 is a brilliant AP. It is of course quite pricey.

So, the Aerocruz 100 is a perfectly serviceable AP with decent features and some annoying quirks. If you don’t fly hard IFR and just need a good AP to reliably fly the magenta line (it will only fly GPS routes) and you can deal with its annoying bits, you’ll be happy. Your wallet will as well.

If you want the best, go with the GFC500 and just don’t look at your bank balance afterwards or ask your wife for permission. Just sayin’

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I now have an all glass (G3x, 750, GFC-500) in my new plane (Mooney Ovation) and it’s night and day. The GFC 500 is a brilliant AP.

You clearly have good taste in both avionics and airplanes.

 

[bbchien]

I have dual GI 275s and the G500 (saves some space & weight). You’ll be very happy with a G500….

 

[Nico_490]

I'd go Garmin and ditch the yaw damper, not much need in an Arrow and Pitch trim is also a luxury vs required if you are trying to save $. Trim Servo is way back in the tail in a PA28 and that adds a bunch of labor cost too.

Is it an Arrow IV Turbo?
Then I might get the YD with the G500.

 

[traumamed]

Also know Trig exists but know very little about them.

I have a Turbo Arrow III and I put a Trio in mine in January of this year.

I went Trio over Aerocruze because it is certified for GPS-based IFR approaches down to 500'. The Aerocruze is en route IFR only, and will almost certainly never be certified for IFR approaches. That mattered to me. It may not to you.

I went Trio over GFC500 bc, while I have a G5 and a GTN750, I also have an Aspen Pro Max 2000 PFD/MFD. The GFC500 would have relegated my Aspens to nothing more than monitoring instruments and forced me to "fly" the G5. Trio, conversely, integrates seamlessly with Aspen setups so I fly the Aspens and barely even have to touch the Trio head unit.

Cost-wise, Trio and Aerocruze are basically equivalent out the door. Between the two, the Aerocruze will probably be easier to get dialed in initially.

DM me for more info/discussion about the Trio.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It seems it'll be dual G5s + GFC500 + GNX 375.

One of my clients did this in his Arrow, but chose a GTN650xi (and a separate transponder) instead of the 375 to have IFR VLOC capability. I did the transition training and he loves it.

 

[albertomannil]

Is it an Arrow IV Turbo?
Then I might get the YD with the G500.

Any specific reason why the TA IV would need the YD?

 

[Nico_490]

Any specific reason why the TA IV would need the YD?

I felt like the IV has a bit more tail wag than the others. That said, I don't have much tie in the Arrow series, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I felt like the IV has a bit more tail wag than the others. That said, I don't have much tie in the Arrow series, so take this with a grain of salt.

I have about 30 hours in Turbo Arrow IVs among the 75 or so in all Arrows. It was a while back but I never noticed a tail wag that would require yaw damping. OTOH, I know someone who decided to add it to a C172, so I guess necessity is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Nico_490]

I have about 30 hours in Turbo Arrow IVs among the 75 or so in all Arrows. It was a while back but I never noticed a tail wag that would require yaw damping. OTOH, I know someone who decided to add it to a C172, so I guess necessity is in the eye of the beholder.

I personally felt that the effect was slightly more noticable on the Arrow IV, but that might just be me.

You're right though. An Arrow doesn't require an AP at all.

 

[Albany Tom]

I can't speak to the different models discussed. I've flown a bunch of different PA-28's, a couple with autopilots, and I love having an AP just to keep wings level and pitch right. To me, I don't see much benefit to having power pitch trim with my VFR flying in those aircraft. Maybe that would change if I were trying to fly an approach with one, but I'm still not sure, because you'd still have to adjust power. As far as yaw goes, disclaimer that I've never flown a T-tail Arrow, none of the PA-28's I've flown had any weird yaw things going on. Like others have said, an Arrow/Cherokee/Archer/whatever kinda just likes to fly.

So all of that, if it were my plane I'd go with whatever was reliable and cost effective, and where you liked the user interface. Of the three I've used I kinda like S-TEC 30 the best, probably because it's so simple, but my experience is pretty limited with different models of AP.

 

[Hang 4]

I have a PA 28 180 with a GFC 500, pitch and roll only. The basic airframe is the same as an Arrow, I can't imagine the need for a yaw damper, or at least spending the extra $$ to have one. Same with trim. It's dead nuts easy to trim once in cruise and rarely have to touch it again until extending flaps. The pitch and roll servos are under the rear seat platform, so very accessible for installation. For my plane the pitch trim servo went in the tail, which was a PITA for installation. Never considered the yaw damper, but deleting pitch was a $2K or $3k savings.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I wouldn't bother with YD on an Arrow, or really any Cherokee or Cessna. The electric trim (auto and manual), however, is a nice option, especially if you have a trim wheel that isn't in a really convenient spot.

YD is more of a bonus if you have a happy airplane like a Bonanza that likes to wag its tail. In fact, I've never met a Beech that wasn't "happy" so I'd probably get it on any of them.

FWIW, if you have the YD - Get in the habit of hitting the AP cutoff at 200' or earlier on final EVERY TIME no matter what. You don't want to accidentally land with the YD on and have it fighting you when you're trying to steer. You'll want to turn YD on right after departure, but of course there's no safety penalty to missing that. Also, most times you cut off the autopilot (except on short final as noted above), you'll want to do it via a quick tap on the manual electric trim switch, as that leaves YD on while cutting off the other modes.

 

[albertomannil]

W

I have a PA 28 180 with a GFC 500, pitch and roll only. The basic airframe is the same as an Arrow, I can't imagine the need for a yaw damper, or at least spending the extra $$ to have one. Same with trim. It's dead nuts easy to trim once in cruise and rarely have to touch it again until extending flaps. The pitch and roll servos are under the rear seat platform, so very accessible for installation. For my plane the pitch trim servo went in the tail, which was a PITA for installation. Never considered the yaw damper, but deleting pitch was a $2K or $3k savings.

Where exactly does the pitch trim servo install in your PA28? This one being a T tail, the cable and pulley system is different.

Would a T tail make the pitch trim even more dificult to install?

 

[Hang 4]

W

Where exactly does the pitch trim servo install in your PA28? This one being a T tail, the cable and pulley system is different.

Would a T tail make the pitch trim even more dificult to install?

It's near the 2nd bulkhead in your picture in the normal PA28. No idea about the t-tail. I really question the need for it in a PA-28. I have electric trim in mine that hasn't worked for the last 5 years. Haven't missed it.

EDIT Here's a picture of the pitch trim servo in a Saratoga, think this is roughly where it goes in a PA28.

 

[Pinecone]

YD is very nice, but you can live without it. At least until you spend some time WITH it.

I would put in pitch trim if you plan on any IFR. Too easy to get behind and miss trimming and then have the AP kick off and be way out of trim. I know of at least one crash that this was a factor.

I love my GFC-500. The original King worked, but the Garmin is smoother and integrates better.

 

[albertomannil]

Well, I've already paid for the GNX 375 and G5s... and also a CGR30P Combo. Just need to figure out the GFC500 soon. Hoping to have everything installed towards October-November!

 

[Datadriver]

Well, I've already paid for the GNX 375 and G5s... and also a CGR30P Combo. Just need to figure out the GFC500 soon. Hoping to have everything installed towards October-November!

I have a GFC500 in my Arrow. You will love it.

 

[Clip4]

Hello friends, I'm looking to replace an Altimatic IIIB in a Turbo Arrow. Basically, I see two options:

GFC500 or Aerocruze 100.

Obviously the Garmin route is the most correct one, but more costly too. Some suggest 275s instead of the G5s, and might as well add Pitch trim and Yaw Damper and suddenly we're going the most expensive route...

The other alternative is a Aerocruze 100 with UAvionix AV30s. My only concern with this is the BK reputation... Is it still that bad dealing with them? Not too concerned over the AV30s.

GPS would be the same for both options, probably a Garmin GPS175.

Also know Trig exists but know very little about them.

What is your opinion?

Thank you!

Is there something wrong with STec 3100?

 

[mandm]

YD is very nice, but you can live without it. At least until you spend some time WITH it.

I would put in pitch trim if you plan on any IFR. Too easy to get behind and miss trimming and then have the AP kick off and be way out of trim. I know of at least one crash that this was a factor.

I love my GFC-500. The original King worked, but the Garmin is smoother and integrates better.

If you’re set for takeoff and after getting into a climb switch over to autopilot, you’re going to need the pitch trim for climbing, throttling back for climb, leveling off and adjusting for cruise flight. Without the pitch trim, how would you adjust the trim unless you deactivated the autopilot? Or is the autopilot just fighting the airplane that’s not in trim the entire time? I have and love my pitch trim. The autopilot is really on point and will just about land the airplane.

 

[albertomannil]

If you’re set for takeoff and after getting into a climb switch over to autopilot, you’re going to need the pitch trim for climbing, throttling back for climb, leveling off and adjusting for cruise flight. Without the pitch trim, how would you adjust the trim unless you deactivated the autopilot? Or is the autopilot just fighting the airplane that’s not in trim the entire time? I have and love my pitch trim. The autopilot is really on point and will just about land the airplane.

If it doesnt have pitch trim, the AP will annunciate it needs a manual trim adjustment. So yes, the AP will fight a bad trim, but that's very easily fixed.

And hadnt considered an Stec 3100. Seems considerably more expensive

 

[Hang 4]

If you’re set for takeoff and after getting into a climb switch over to autopilot, you’re going to need the pitch trim for climbing, throttling back for climb, leveling off and adjusting for cruise flight. Without the pitch trim, how would you adjust the trim unless you deactivated the autopilot? Or is the autopilot just fighting the airplane that’s not in trim the entire time? I have and love my pitch trim. The autopilot is really on point and will just about land the airplane.

No need to disconnect AP to adjust trim. I have manual trim on my PA28 with GFC500. The AP isn't connected in any way to the trim mechanism. It will annunciate if the plane is out of trim, but you have to be pretty far out.

And hadnt considered an Stec 3100. Seems considerably more expensive

I looked at 3100 and quickly dismissed it for cost. I had an STEC 30 and there was a way to retain the servos when upgrading to the 3100. Even with that, it was more $.

 

[mandm]

No need to disconnect AP to adjust trim. I have manual trim on my PA28 with GFC500. The AP isn't connected in any way to the trim mechanism. It will annunciate if the plane is out of trim, but you have to be pretty far out.

I looked at 3100 and quickly dismissed it for cost. I had an STEC 30 and there was a way to retain the servos when upgrading to the 3100. Even with that, it was more $.

I was just thinking I wouldn’t know how to set the trim if I wasn’t feeling the neutral setting of the elevator. That’s why I thought you’d have to disconnect the autopilot to do this.

 

[Hang 4]

I was just thinking I wouldn’t know how to set the trim if I wasn’t feeling the neutral setting of the elevator. That’s why I thought you’d have to disconnect the autopilot to do this.

Ah, that makes sense. Two things - the AP will annunciate if there's a need to trim up or down. You can also disengage the ALT mode alone to more finely tune trim without affecting the horizontal engagement. Might pick up a knot or two on a longer trip.
Pressing the ALT button will disengage, press again to re-engage once you've got the trim you want.