ATITAPA from an airliner....

Lindberg said:
I don't know what anyone here considers the "normal" position calls, but I'll continue to make position calls just as I would without the ATITAPA pilots. That's what I meant by ignoring them.
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That's what I meant.
 
Lindberg said:
People can say whatever they want on the radio. I'll ignore them. For some reason, the ATITAPA crowd seems more bothered by my ignoring them than I am by their ignoring the AIM.
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Kritchlow said:
Right. Because I find someone who intentionally wants to be a jerk to impair safety is an idiot....
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He is continuing to make his normal position reports, so I don't see any safety impairment there.
 
"I advise you to wait until I make my next position report as I don't make it a habit to cater to entitled children who expect me to immediately respond. Oh, and im turning base now"
 
Palmpilot said:
He is continuing to make his normal position reports, so I don't see any safety impairment there.
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If some student pilot forgets to call downwind and we are coming it at roughly double his speed, I feel I owe it to my 200 passengers to attempt to know where my traffic is.
 
Not that this is earth-shaking or anything, but do you really think your reporting on final is not going to be enough of a reminder?
 
Kritchlow said:
If some student pilot forgets to call downwind and we are coming it at roughly double his speed, I feel I owe it to my 200 passengers to attempt to know where my traffic is.
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When you announce your position he's going to remember to make his call - happens 100% of the time, even when you don't include the "I'm more important than you, tell me where you are" phrase
 
SkyHog said:
When you announce your position he's going to remember to make his call - happens 100% of the time, even when you don't include the "I'm more important than you, tell me where you are" phrase
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Maybe..... maybe not. Perhaps he thought he made it but was overwhelmed.
 
Kritchlow said:
If some student pilot forgets to call downwind and we are coming it at roughly double his speed, I feel I owe it to my 200 passengers to attempt to know where my traffic is.
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That's relevant to your reasons for making the ATITAPA calls, but it's irrelevant to whether Lindberg compromises safety by not immediately answering, and continuing to make his normal calls at his normal times, because Lindberg is not a student pilot.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's relevant to your reasons for making the ATITAPA calls, but it's irrelevant to whether Lindberg compromises safety by not immediately answering, and continuing to make his normal calls at his normal times, because Lindberg is not a student pilot.
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True point. But would it hurt anyone at a slow field to increase situational awareness by responding?

I used to fly corporate jets out of many small fields. I don’t think someone who announced a 45 just before I booted my radios understand how fast we can invade their area.
I would like the big picture (as big as possible) before I launch.
Same thing coming in. We were overrunning everyone. Coming in IFR it’s hard to listen to traffic so we may not hear all calls.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Absolutely! Many NORDO pilots do an insufficient if not horrible job of looking for other traffic and yielding the right of way. Not sure how much of it is inadvertent due to just being incompetent or if some take advantage of their NORDO status using it as an excuse. I think I do a pretty good job of looking for other traffic but hearing position call outs greatly assists in that effort. So while ATITAPA is considered non standard communication, at least it is communication.
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I've been accused of that...heard it on my radio, between my normal pattern adjustments to fit in and making radio calls to announce my position and intentions. Somebody got in the radio and announced a red and white NORDO taildragger in the pattern (me) that everybody should look out for.:rolleyes:
 
MauleSkinner said:
I've been accused of that...heard it on my radio, between my normal pattern adjustments to fit in and making radio calls to announce my position and intentions. Somebody got in the radio and announced a red and white NORDO airplane in the pattern (me) that everybody should look out for.:rolleyes:
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That’s funny.
 
Ravioli said:
APITAPSTT

[Any Posters in the area, Please See Thread Tools] You can fix your title using the thread tools button at the top right of your thread.
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Thanks. Fixed it, I appreciated the info on where to make the change.

Boy, this really did open a can of worms. :-)
 
SkyHog said:
There is a world of difference between taking off nordo and using ATITAPA. In fact there is one important step between where you call your intentions, look, and listen.

ATITAPA does not help anyone
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Not sure it helps much, as you say. . .but on a quiet day, alone in the pattern, I'm not personally offended when someone makes the call. I'll mention I'm a Skyhawk on downwind, and maybe the active, if the winds are calm. Not sure that's so bad. The AIM ain't the bible. Kind of a silly pain when the freqs are busy, but the real world is fluid. Feel free to yell at the next one you hear. . .
 
Kritchlow said:
If some student pilot forgets to call downwind and we are coming it at roughly double his speed, I feel I owe it to my 200 passengers to attempt to know where my traffic is.
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Or someone working in a practice area nearby, or jumpers or plenty of other traffic that could be a factor but not established in the pattern. If done properly, it’s not a big inconvenience to anyone and it may improve SA. Just because there are idiots that abuse it or misuse it doesn’t mean it can’t be helpful.
 
Cooter said:
Or someone working in a practice area nearby, or jumpers or plenty of other traffic that could be a factor but not established in the pattern. If done properly, it’s not a big inconvenience to anyone and it may improve SA. Just because there are idiots that abuse it or misuse it doesn’t mean it can’t be helpful.
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So if I'm in the pattern, the jump plane is climbing for 11,500 and there's a student in the nearby practice area when Dumbo makes his ATITAPA call, which one(s) of us answer him, and in what order? THAT is why AIM says to never make this call . . . .
 
Hank S said:
So if I'm in the pattern, the jump plane is climbing for 11,500 and there's a student in the nearby practice area when Dumbo makes his ATITAPA call, which one(s) of us answer him, and in what order? THAT is why AIM says to never make this call . . . .
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You honestly couldn’t work that out? It’s not that hard.
If I’m an IP in the pattern and Kritchlow wants to know what traffic is around when he’s inbound with his passengers, I just answer up and say there’s jumpers north of the field and x-many in the pattern. One radio call. It’s pretty simple and I don’t mind helping him out. If it offends you, don’t answer. I’m not sure why such a big deal is made of it.
 
Cooter said:
Or someone working in a practice area nearby, or jumpers or plenty of other traffic that could be a factor but not established in the pattern. If done properly, it’s not a big inconvenience to anyone and it may improve SA. Just because there are idiots that abuse it or misuse it doesn’t mean it can’t be helpful.
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Exactly right. And as I said earlier “when it’s appropriate”.
 
Cooter said:
You honestly couldn’t work that out? It’s not that hard.
If I’m an IP in the pattern and Kritchlow wants to know what traffic is around when he’s inbound with his passengers, I just answer up and say there’s jumpers north of the field and x-many in the pattern. One radio call. It’s pretty simple and I don’t mind helping him out. If it offends you, don’t answer. I’m not sure why such a big deal is made of it.
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That works, unless you and I both try to answer at the same time and step on each other. Then Kritchlow thinks there's nobody around and blasts into the pattern . . . THAT is why AIM says to NEVER MAKE THIS CALL! Because there's no protocol on how to answer the call if more than one plane is there without stepping on each other. Then there's the jump plane whose gonna answer next, someone else taxiing out will pipe up, the student in the practice area feels like he has to announce (you did ask for "any traffic in the area," so be prepared for all of them to try to talk, stepping in each other and snarling the frequency), etc., now there's no time for Dumbo inbound at 250 knots with 200 pax to tell anyone where he is or how fast he's coming up, and there's a much greater chance for a real cluster on final . . . .

But it's alright, you know so much more about flying than those fools who wrote and continually revise the Airmen's
Information Manual. No one else would dare talk on the radio while you're making a call.
 
Hank S said:
That works, unless you and I both try to answer at the same time and step on each other. Then Kritchlow thinks there's nobody around and blasts into the pattern . . . THAT is why AIM says to NEVER MAKE THIS CALL! Because there's no protocol on how to answer the call if more than one plane is there without stepping on each other. Then there's the jump plane whose gonna answer next, someone else taxiing out will pipe up, the student in the practice area feels like he has to announce (you did ask for "any traffic in the area," so be prepared for all of them to try to talk, stepping in each other and snarling the frequency), etc., now there's no time for Dumbo inbound at 250 knots with 200 pax to tell anyone where he is or how fast he's coming up, and there's a much greater chance for a real cluster on final . . . .

But it's alright, you know so much more about flying than those fools who wrote and continually revise the Airmen's
Information Manual. No one else would dare talk on the radio while you're making a call.
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Seriously, why are you so worked up over this?
 
Hank S said:
That works, unless you and I both try to answer at the same time and step on each other. Then Kritchlow thinks there's nobody around and blasts into the pattern . . . THAT is why AIM says to NEVER MAKE THIS CALL! Because there's no protocol on how to answer the call if more than one plane is there without stepping on each other. Then there's the jump plane whose gonna answer next, someone else taxiing out will pipe up, the student in the practice area feels like he has to announce (you did ask for "any traffic in the area," so be prepared for all of them to try to talk, stepping in each other and snarling the frequency), etc., now there's no time for Dumbo inbound at 250 knots with 200 pax to tell anyone where he is or how fast he's coming up, and there's a much greater chance for a real cluster on final . . . .

But it's alright, you know so much more about flying than those fools who wrote and continually revise the Airmen's
Information Manual. No one else would dare talk on the radio while you're making a call.
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A bit of discretion is needed imo. A busy pattern is different than a slow pattern.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay good. You do it your way and listen to two jumbled transmissions (and possibly miss both), and I’ll do it my way.
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Us mere Private Pilots manage to listen to calls on two radios while flying single pilot IFR. Surely two ATP-rated professional pilots can manage to listen to two radios between them, that's only one radio per person, and one of you ain't flying! Why is that so freaking difficult for you to do?
 
Hank S said:
Us mere Private Pilots manage to listen to calls on two radios while flying single pilot IFR. Surely two ATP-rated professional pilots can manage to listen to two radios between them, that's only one radio per person, and one of you ain't flying! Why is that so freaking difficult for you to do?
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You know zero point zero about airline airline SOP.
 
Kritchlow said:
A bit of discretion is needed imo. A busy pattern is different than a slow pattern.
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How do you know if it's a busy pattern? Are you listening to the radio? If so, why do you need to make an ATITAPA call? And why do you consider yourself above the AIM recommendations?
 
Hank S said:
You airline has SOPs that directly contradict the AIM? That's quite interesting. Please tell me which airline, so I can avoid flying with them.
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Never said that. But a bit of common sense comes into play here.
 
Kritchlow said:
Never said that. But a bit of common sense comes into play here.
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The more "little guys" see and hear the "big guys" doing something, the more of them do it to, right, wrong or indifferent. So please stop setting bad examples for people to follow, then dodging direct questions about why you do it. It's difficult to back-justify behavior that you know is wrong, isn't it? Especially doing so in writing on a public forum . . .

But you've painted yourself into a corner with that crack about "airline SOPs" being the reason you act against the AIM.

A brief admission of guilt and a promise to act better in the future is sufficient, no need to publicly incriminate yourself any further.
 
Hank S said:
The more "little guys" see and hear the "big guys" doing something, the more of them do it to, right, wrong or indifferent. So please stop setting bad examples for people to follow, then dodging direct questions about why you do it. It's difficult to back-justify behavior that you know is wrong, isn't it? Especially doing so in writing on a public forum . . .

But you've painted yourself into a corner with that crack about "airline SOPs" being the reason you act against the AIM.

A brief admission of guilt and a promise to act better in the future is sufficient, no need to publicly incriminate yourself any further.
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Never said airline SOPs are contrary to the AIM. If you can point that out I will happily correct the statement.

I do think, in certain circumstances, the call should be made.
This comes from a guy who has been flying jets out of small fields for 20 years (not currently).

I just may know a thing or two about it.
 
dmspilot said:
"Likely good info, but too long to read."

He must feel the same way about the AIM.
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If you’re talking about me just be a man and say so.

I know the AIM, but chose to deviate under captains authority. Problem with that????
 
I’ll add something here that may bridge the gap. Kritchlow most likely has his opinion because of past experiences. There is a difference in saying that something should be the norm and that there are sometimes gaps that need filled in.

Taking a jet into small uncontrolled fields can be a challenge and there are some hazards that aren’t properly addressed by the normal procedures. It is nearly impossible to build a complete picture by monitoring CTAF when moving at jet speeds. If he wants to try to improve his SA in the short amount of time available, I’ll help him out. It’s pilots using their good judgement and working together that keeps uncontrolled fields safe.
 
How do you determine if you "need" to make an ATITAPA call?

What are the requirements for you to decide to deviate from the AIM?

Everyone with at least a Sport Pilot Certificate has "captain's authority" every time we start an airplane . . . .
 
Cooter said:
I’ll add something here that may bridge the gap. Kritchlow most likely has his opinion because of past experiences. There is a difference in saying that something should be the norm and that there are sometimes gaps that need filled in.

Taking a jet into small uncontrolled fields can be a challenge and there are some hazards that aren’t properly addressed by the normal procedures. It is nearly impossible to build a complete picture by monitoring CTAF when moving at jet speeds. If he wants to try to improve his SA in the short amount of time available, I’ll help him out. It’s pilots using their good judgement and working together that keeps uncontrolled fields safe.
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Nicely said, Cooter.
 
Kritchlow said:
If you’re talking about me just be a man and say so.

I know the AIM, but chose to deviate under captains authority. Problem with that????
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I was, but I deleted my post because it was too trollish. Carry on.
 
Cooter said:
Taking a jet into small uncontrolled fields can be a challenge and there are some hazards that aren’t properly addressed by the normal procedures. Agreed. It is nearly impossible to build a complete picture by monitoring CTAF when moving at jet speeds. Then he should start listening to it earlier. If he wants to try to improve his SA in the short amount of time available, I’ll help him out. It’s pilots using their good judgement and working together that keeps uncontrolled fields safe.
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If he makes unambiguous radio calls not requesting everyone in the area to answer, we will all be able to help him out by expediting or delaying whatever we are already doing.

I've worked politely with twins and jets approaching and landing at the same uncontrolled field as I was, with no need for either one of us to descend to ATITAPA or name calling, just standard position calls. Sometimes I was off the runway before they were on 1 mile final, sometimes I deviated to clear the way for them because I was in a good mood and chose to yield my right of way. Sorry, "I exercised my captain's authority" and circled somewhere nearby. :cornut:
 
Hank S said:
How do you determine if you "need" to make an ATITAPA call?

What are the requirements for you to decide to deviate from the AIM?

Everyone with at least a Sport Pilot Certificate has "captain's authority" every time we start an airplane . . . .
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There is no “deviation” from the aim.

I use my judgement. You remember what that is?? If the pattern is blasted with traffic I would never make that call... for several reasons. One of which I could never remember (or even hear) where everyone is.

Now, a sleepy place that makes you get an IFR clearance at the departure end of the runway I have zero chance of hearing someone. I will carefully look, and as an added layer make the call. Also “area” vs “pattern” is an important distinction.
As Cooter noted there could be sky divers close by, or other situations. Also airplanes 10 miles out may be in the freq but not yet making pattern calls. At jet speeds those closure rates are fast. It might be a good idea to have a picture (as good as it can be) to avoid them.
 
Hank S said:
So if I'm in the pattern, the jump plane is climbing for 11,500 and there's a student in the nearby practice area when Dumbo makes his ATITAPA call, which one(s) of us answer him, and in what order? THAT is why AIM says to never make this call . . . .
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The most important thing is you all answer right then at the same time. It works even better if there are 5 airports on the frequency and no one heard the beginning of the ATITAPA call for which airport because everone is already stepping all over each other, they didn't say which airport at the end and 15 planes try and answer and you end up with an even more useless frequency for a minute or two.
 
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