ATC Communication Problems? m/w Mad citation Pilot vs ATC

Clip4 said:
Absent the attitude, there would have been nothing wrong with the pilot refusing the route over the mountain or the original approach if is was for a articulable safety concern. There is also nothing wrong with ATC not authoring the approach when they can’t provide separation.
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Couldn't agree more.
Clip4 said:
The first controller should have issued a hold and worked the problem with the adjoining TRACON or simply asked what alternate the pilot wanted. If the pilot had declared an emergency, he would have violated 91.3(b) because he did not have “In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action,”.
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I don't know what transpired prior to the beginning of the video. However, when informed that the RNAV (GPS) 11L was unavailable due to LAX departures, the pilot had other options besides throwing a temper tantrum and then employing the tactical use of emergency authority as a means of extortion. One might suppose that he could have held at the IAF until LAX could arrange a pause in departures, but that might have required more fuel than he was willing to burn. He also might have just diverted to somewhere nearby, such as LGB (Long Beach). Aside from that, I am not certain why he would not accept 29R. My Citation flying was limited to the 501 and 550, so I can only speculate that in a 560, 5000' @ sea level is enough pavement even with a 10kt tailwind.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Couldn't agree more.

I don't know what transpired prior to the beginning of the video. However, when informed that the RNAV (GPS) 11L was unavailable due to LAX departures, the pilot had other options besides throwing a temper tantrum and then employing the tactical use of emergency authority as a means of extortion. One might suppose that he could have held at the IAF until LAX could arrange a pause in departures, but that might have required more fuel than he was willing to burn. He also might have just diverted to somewhere nearby, such as LGB (Long Beach). Aside from that, I am not certain why he would not accept 29R. My Citation flying was limited to the 501 and 550, so I can only speculate that in a 560, 5000' @ sea level is enough pavement even with a 10kt tailwind.
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I believe the pilot made an unable to circle to land comment.
 
Clip4 said:
I believe the pilot made an unable to circle to land comment.
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He did, and he said the Citation was specifically prevented from doing so.
My guess, and only a guess is he was picking a higher class for circle to land, likely because he was uncomfortable flying the jet slower.

Tim
 
tspear said:
He did, and he said the Citation was specifically prevented from doing so.
My guess, and only a guess is he was picking a higher class for circle to land, likely because he was uncomfortable flying the jet slower.

Tim
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I heard that too, and don't understand it, unless it's a personal or company prohibition against circling.

I am typed in the Citation series, and while I don't have much time in them and it's been years, I can't imagine Vref ever gets remotely close to the top of Cat C (the highest approach cat on the procedures) which is 140 kts. I seem to remember most Vref's were in the 100-105 range. That Citation V may have been a little higher.
 
RussR said:
I heard that too, and don't understand it, unless it's a personal or company prohibition against circling.
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That statement, combined with his other radio traffic, lead me to believe that he was inventing an excuse to refuse the RNAV to 29R/circle 11L. Curious, I did some research and could not find any restriction or prohibition relevant to the 560. Or any other aircraft type, for that matter. Oddly, it seems that if he'd flown the approach to 29R and circled to establish an easy left downwind for 11L, he could have had essentially the same base and final that he ended up flying. Go figure.
 
RussR said:
I heard that too, and don't understand it, unless it's a personal or company prohibition against circling.
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Unless he got his Citation type under an Air Carrier certificate that doesn’t do CTL for the type ride and therefore has a circling prohibition on the type rating, it’s not going to be a regulatory prohibition.

But I know enough people who claim personal limitations are regulatory that I don’t doubt he tried to claim that it was regulatory.
 
I recall reading that some charter and airline OpSec (is that the correct name/spelling?) also ban circle to land. No idea if common or anecdotal.

BWTHDIK?

Tim
 
Even if he had some company restriction against CTL, ATC is under no obligation to accommodate his request no? If you can’t fit in the flow of traffic, you get to hold until you can be accommodated or you divert. When ATC told him they need to coordinate his request he threw a hissy fit immediately.

I watched all 3 videos and this guy seems like a real jacka**. Major “I am the main character” syndrome. Refusing to take down a number and call for a possible pilot deviation seems like a great way to get into a world of legal hurt.

I also loved that somehow the sun was in his eyes regardless of what his heading was. Never knew the sun changes position in the sky so fast!
 
MauleSkinner said:
Unless he got his Citation type under an Air Carrier certificate that doesn’t do CTL for the type ride and therefore has a circling prohibition on the type rating, it’s not going to be a regulatory prohibition.

But I know enough people who claim personal limitations are regulatory that I don’t doubt he tried to claim that it was regulatory.
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Two of my type ratings include the limitation “CIRC. APCH. — VMC ONLY.” The ops specs for that airline prohibited circling unless the wx was 1000/3 or published mins if higher. If I understand correctly, the wx at TOA was VMC.

Somehow, I don’t think this character was flying for a commercial operator, but even if so he could have flown the RNAV 29R and circled in VMC, or requested a visual 11L once the airport was in sight.

This pilot’s behavior, demands, and excuses were nothing but bulldada and he has no business operating in the IFR system an airplane. I remain convinced that emergency revocation is appropriate. Stop him before he kills people.
 
Roger Wilco said:
This pilot’s behavior, demands, and excuses were nothing but bulldada and he has no business operating in the IFR system an airplane. I remain convinced that emergency revocation is appropriate. Stop him before he kills people.
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I may agree; however I am not aware of a regulation that bans bad attitude. Which is why I asked earlier in the thread, what regs can they actually throw at him, and what are the requisite penalties.

MauleSkinner said:
OpSpecs…Operation Specifications.

Most airlines, and a very small proportion of charter operators.
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Seeing your correction, I have to laugh. I am so used to writing DevSecOps and related even though in my head I said Operation Specification I totaly missed the P.

Thanks,

Tim
 
tspear said:
I may agree; however I am not aware of a regulation that bans bad attitude. Which is why I asked earlier in the thread, what regs can they actually throw at him, and what are the requisite penalties.
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The response that I advocate is just my opinion (admittedly not so humble in this particular case) and bears no relationship to what may be enforceable. It's up to FAA Aviation Litigation Division, and they do have some expertise in these matters. If they can ground Bob Hoover over allegations that turned out to be nonsense, they can ground this guy who has given them plenty of ammunition by comparison.
 
N30CV on youtube again. This event from March 28, 2026


edit: added date of event.
 
Justin M said:
N30CV on youtube again. This event from March 28, 2026


edit: added date of event.
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Now that’s he’s famous in the small but dedicated and, errr “obsessive” let’s say, crowd that listens to ATC, I bet they are scouring LiveATC for every possible nugget that dude has said. Hope he enjoys becoming a bit internet famous for being an idiot.
 
What would be hilarious is if the guy is a member of poa or some other aviation forum
 
To me, he sounded kinda scared and dealt with the fear by getting angry. Maybe being close to the (not actually) mountains combined with the sun. Maybe that plus a demanding client in the back or something. Dunno. But he sounded scared to me. Doesn’t justify the anger - at someone trying to help.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
To me, he sounded kinda scared and dealt with the fear by getting angry. Maybe being close to the (not actually) mountains combined with the sun. Maybe that plus a demanding client in the back or something. Dunno. But he sounded scared to me. Doesn’t justify the anger - at someone trying to help.
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You'd think that would subside 30 hours later and he'd be willing to take a number.
 
traumamed said:
Ophthalmologist who has multiple malpractice suits against him.

Funny enough, a malpractice attorney will tell you that the #1 predictor of whether you will get sued by a patient is your attitude.
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I was once threatened with every attorney Texas oil money could buy, “starting with my malpractice attorney.”

Seemed like an unusual starting point. :biggrin:
 
traumamed said:
Funny enough, a malpractice attorney will tell you that the #1 predictor of whether you will get sued by a patient is your attitude.
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I don’t know about funny, but it’s definitely not a surprise. Pretty obvious, actually. The closest I ever got to a med-mal case was maybe 45 years ago, but I saw that right away. Basic human factors.

Bad attitude is not a regulatory violation, but it can affect the result of any pilot deviation that does take place, including the effort made to find one or morph a legal act into a 91.13 violation.
 
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traumamed said:
Ophthalmologist who has multiple malpractice suits against him.

Funny enough, a malpractice attorney will tell you that the #1 predictor of whether you will get sued by a patient is your attitude.
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it was a joke. Not worthy of a response. However you did provide some valuable insight.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don’t know about funny, but it’s definitely not a surprise. Pretty obvious, actually. The closest I ever got to a med-mal case was maybe 45 years ago, but I saw that right away. Basic human factors.

Bad attitude is not a regulatory violation, but it can affect the result of any pilot deviation that does take place, including the effort made to find one or morph a legal act into a 91.13 violation.
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It also increases the risk of having an accident.
 
traumamed said:
Ophthalmologist who has multiple malpractice suits against him.
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"has"? Or "had"? Looks like they were settled in 2005 with a two-year probation. Apparently it wasn't enough to stop him from being appointed to the Nevada Athletic Commission.
 
Registered to Tweety Bird Aviation LLC Henderson NV, true to form, a Cartoon character????
 
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asicer said:
Looks like they were settled in 2005 with a two-year probation. Apparently it wasn't enough to stop him from being appointed to the Nevada Athletic Commission.
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For quite a while now, it is actually not uncommon to not have a malpractice suit or or a threat of one that is settled out of court by the insurance companies.

One of the reasons that's high on the list for why our health care is so high.
 
Going over the mountains at Torrance? WTF?????
 
I wonder if his first name is "Captain." ;)
 
WDD said:
Most pilots are "normal", but it seems flying attracts a slightly higher percentage of arrogant Karens and Drama Kings mixed with spoiled. These are the people who will give you advice on your golf swing after they just met you. They also cut in line at the grocery store.

"I'm in command - I have the power of life and death! Ha ha ha ha!"
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The Association of the Perpetually Irate adds hundreds of members every day.
 
  • Haha
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