Arrival Procedure

GaryP1007

GaryP1007

Pre-takeoff checklist
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GaryP1007
Hate to admit I don’t know the answer to this question because I should…..

Does one have to be cleared for the arrival procedure the same way you are cleared for an approach?


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GaryP1007 said:
Hate to admit I don’t know the answer to this question because I should…..

Does one have to be cleared for the arrival procedure the same way you are cleared for an approach?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Nah. They just tell you do it. The words 'cleared for' are not part of it. It'll just be like another element of your route. You may get a 'descend via.'
 
I don't know about "the same way as an approach." "Cleared is not a word used for that.' But how about "the same way as any other IFR routing"? Requiring either a clearance or an instruction.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't know about "the same way as an approach." "Cleared is not a word used for that.' But how about "the same way as any other IFR routing"? Requiring either a clearance or an instruction.
Click to expand...
@GaryP1007 , Yup. It's just part of the Route of Flight.

b. Route of flight including a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP and STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP transition, if appropriate. Assign a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP and STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP transition to any aircraft in lieu of other routes; e.g., airways or preferential arrival routes when the routings are the same. The clearance must include the name and transition, if necessary, of the STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP to be flown.
TERMINAL: When the STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP transition is designed to provide course guidance to multiple runways, the facility must state intended runway number on initial contact, or as soon as practical. If the runway assignment, or any subsequent runway change, is not issued prior to 10 NM from the runway transition waypoint, radar vectors to final must be provided.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP name and number) ARRIVAL. (STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP name and number) ARRIVAL, (transition name) TRANSITION. CHANGE/AMEND TRANSITION TO (runway number). CHANGE/AMEND TRANSITION TO (runway number) TURN LEFT/RIGHT or HEADING (heading) FOR VECTOR TO FINAL APPROACH COURSE.
EXAMPLE−
“Rosewood One arrival.” “Rosewood One arrival, Delta transition.” “Change transition to Runway 09 right.” “Amend transition to Runway 22 left, turn right heading 180 for vector to final approach course.”
 
midlifeflyer said:
Requiring either a clearance or an instruction.
Click to expand...
From a pilot's point of view, what's the difference between a clearance and an instruction? I think I know but it would be interesting to see what others think.
 
asicer said:
From a pilot's point of view, what's the difference between a clearance and an instruction? I think I know but it would be interesting to see what others think.
Click to expand...
And they're off ladies and gentlemen. FAR 91.123 is first out of the gate with a half length lead on 91.3....:goofy::devil::stirpot:
 
asicer said:
From a pilot's point of view, what's the difference between a clearance and an instruction? I think I know but it would be interesting to see what others think.
Click to expand...
Well, one could go to the PCG and read the definitions of the two terms. But when you read those you can still be confused :D. The formal definitions have a bit of overlap.
So, for me it's as simple as ATC's use of the word "cleared" or referring to a "clearance."
luvflyin said:
And they're off ladies and gentlemen. FAR 91.123 is first out of the gate with a half length lead on 91.3....:goofy::devil::stirpot:
Click to expand...
Since 91.123 require both to be obeyed, I'm not sure than answer will be found there.
 
Ok, I need to review my IR trivia. But, I thought you did need a clearance for the arrival to make the altitude changes as published. You can follow the waypoints, but without the clearance you have to maintain altitudes as given verbally. Am I misremembering?
 
Salty said:
Ok, I need to review my IR trivia. But, I thought you did need a clearance for the arrival to make the altitude changes as published. You can follow the waypoints, but without the clearance you have to maintain altitudes as given verbally. Am I misremembering?
Click to expand...

You are correct that you are not permitted to descend without an instruction or clearance to do so. However, ATC does not use the word "clearance" in the standard phraseology when issuing an instruction to "descend via", thus some might argue that a "descend via" instruction is not a clearance. However, according to the PCG, it is considered a clearance:

DESCEND VIA– An abbreviated ATC clearance that
requires compliance with a published procedure
lateral path and associated speed restrictions and
provides a pilot-discretion descent to comply with
published altitude restrictions.
​
 
dmspilot said:
You are correct that you are not permitted to descend without an instruction or clearance to do so. However, ATC does not use the word "clearance" in the standard phraseology when issuing an instruction to "descend via", thus some might argue that a "descend via" instruction is not a clearance. However, according to the PCG, it is considered a clearance:

DESCEND VIA– An abbreviated ATC clearance that
requires compliance with a published procedure
lateral path and associated speed restrictions and
provides a pilot-discretion descent to comply with
published altitude restrictions.
​
Click to expand...
Ah yes, descend via. Thats it.
 
Salty said:
Ok, I need to review my IR trivia. But, I thought you did need a clearance for the arrival to make the altitude changes as published. You can follow the waypoints, but without the clearance you have to maintain altitudes as given verbally. Am I misremembering?
Click to expand...
Yup, that's true. You maintain your last assigned altitude until they give you a new one. It may not be a number. They might say Descend Via.

EDIT: Like he said
 
Caution: we have had threads lately about flying through Canadian airspace. If landing in Canada, and given a descend (not via) clearance on an arrival, that automatically means you must hit the published targets down to the lowest altitude you are assigned.
 
dmspilot said:
You are correct that you are not permitted to descend without an instruction or clearance to do so. However, ATC does not use the word "clearance" in the standard phraseology when issuing an instruction to "descend via", thus some might argue that a "descend via" instruction is not a clearance. However, according to the PCG, it is considered a clearance:

DESCEND VIA– An abbreviated ATC clearance that
requires compliance with a published procedure
lateral path and associated speed restrictions and
provides a pilot-discretion descent to comply with
published altitude restrictions.
​
Click to expand...
Which is exactly why an exclusive definition of the two is elusive. They could as easily have said, "An ATC instruction that requires..." and the meaning would be exactly the same.

Is "descend and maintain" an instruction or a clearance? I think many of us would say "instruction," but the IPH uses "clearance" to describe ATC directives far more than "instruction."

Since we have to obey both (absent safety considerations) and the consequences of deviation identical, I think it's what one of my profs referred to as a "Colgate-Ipana" distinction, a distinction without a difference.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
You (N123) are 50nm E of MANRS at fl300

ATC: "N123 cleared direct MANRS, descend via the LUCKI ONE"

When may you begin your descent and what is your initial altitude goal (where & how high)?
Click to expand...
You can descend immediately, if you want, to as low as FL240. Your first crossing restriction is SOFII between FL240 and FL260 inclusive.

I flew that exact arrival and transition yesterday. Followed it with the RNAV (RNP) Z Rwy 27. The initial descent clearance is different, though. Initially it was (IIRC), "Descend via the LUCKI ONE except maintain FL240.". Later it was "Descend via the LUCKI ONE except maintain 10,000'". Eventually, SoCal, gives the unrestricted descend via... clearance. Then, "At LYNDI, cleared approach Runway 27".
 
Larry in TN said:
You can descend immediately, if you want, to as low as FL240. Your first crossing restriction is SOFII between FL240 and FL260 inclusive.

I flew that exact arrival and transition yesterday. Followed it with the RNAV (RNP) Z Rwy 27. The initial descent clearance is different, though. Initially it was (IIRC), "Descend via the LUCKI ONE except maintain FL240.". Later it was "Descend via the LUCKI ONE except maintain 10,000'". Eventually, SoCal, gives the unrestricted descend via... clearance. Then, "At LYNDI, cleared approach Runway 27".
Click to expand...
Are you required to initiate your descent immediately for a "descend via, except for.." clearance? Or is that still pilots discretion like a std "descend via"? I think it's required immediate, but I realized reading your post that I'm not fully certain - since it's lateral clearance but a different altitude clearance?
 
kaiser said:
Are you required to initiate your descent immediately for a "descend via, except for.." clearance?
Click to expand...
No. It's PD to meet the published, and amended, restrictions. If they need you to descend now the clearance would be, "Descend and maintain FL330, then descend via the LUCKI1 arrival except maintain FL240."

Descend Via is PD with restrictions. If it wasn't, it would be descend and maintain.

This FAA FAQ might help.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...00/afs410/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf
 
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