Arrested: Randy Babbitt

Doc Bruce,

I agree that ATPs shouldn't lose their careers for a DUI. However, the HIMS Program is a sick joke against people without any problems. The more of an over achiever you are, the more you say you don't have a problem (and have demonstrated so through years of exemplary behavior) the more you are in 'denial'. The more of a dry drunk you are.

It is a crime against humanity. I am not going to argue with you about wether or not alcoholism is a disease or not. Because it is not. There are not major players in the field of cancer research arguing that cancer is not a disease. There are however, many established professors of medicine and psychiatry arguing there is no disease and that Psychiatry has no scientific basis. We do have some vague knowledge of genetic predispositions, but even for something as serious as Schizophrenia there is absolutely no way to assign a diagnosis based on genetic information. With the advancement of DNA sequencing and other methods of gene marking we might get a better understanding of risk but thats all it can ever be is an illusion of risk.

The Nazi Psychiatrists did make fake diagnosis to kill millions of people, but the HIMS Psychiatrists are FORCING people to believe they have a disease, in my opinion this is actually worse. The less of an alcoholic you are, the more you are in denial. Drapetomania was a biological disease to that slaves had who ran away to freedom. I am not making this up. Alcoholism is a moral failing, it only appears to be a disease. IN soviet Russia political dissenters of communism also had a brain disease. You should really study the history of the misuse of psychiatry, then think really hard about what they are doing.

I argue that HIMS Psychiatrists are committing crimes against humanity through the misuse of psychiatry for political purposes. I am very firm on my position.

If what I am saying sounds too rational just tell yourself I am in 'denial'. After all the more reasonable I sound the more in denial I must be right? The HIMS Program is a sick joke, that's what I 'SMELL'
Well I have to assume you are in the shackle(s) of the HIMS system right now-and I 'm not going to launch into a debate with an anon, and you are not glad that you can continue to work..

The FAA defines alcohol abuse as "the use of alcohol in a situation that creates a public danger" which translates to "outside the home....driving....flying....". This was essentially, CONGRESSIONALLY MANDATED. You know that 80% of folks who think they can "compartmentalize" and only drink when off, eventually spill over into the workplace?

I'm not going to dignify your "NAZI" or "Crimes against" commentary. When you do a PET scan on the brain of a guy that a psych says has an addiction problem, the radiologist can double blind pick it out of the crowd (less so in remission but the "r' value is still quite good). If I'm right about you, your ARE in denial.
 
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Doc Bruce,

You certainly 'think' you're right. That I am not going to argue. What the radiologist is picking up is areas of the brain effected by excessive alcohol use not the 'cause' of the alcohol use.
 
and I don't drink when off and have no interest in 'compartmentalizing' I don't drink at all. This is actually good, now I see what you people are assuming about me.

You say I am in denial. Yet you know nothing about me. You are using your biases to make unwarranted assumptions that I even have any interest in alcohol. How is this not a sick joke?
 
I am not an ATP who just got a DUI and has his career on the line. So please stop making this assumption to help your argument.

I am arguing about the lives that are being destroyed of pilots with past mistakes. The HIMS Program surely is a nice option for a 40 year old ATP who gets a DUI and needs to save his career. I agree with you on that.
 
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HIMSPROGRAM said:
You say I am in denial. Yet you know nothing about me.
HIMSPROGRAM said:
You certainly 'think' you're right. That I am not going to argue. What the radiologist is picking up is areas of the brain effected by excessive alcohol use not the 'cause' of the alcohol use.
You couldn't see it- I should have known. See, it really IS organic disease.

I suppose you really do know the "cause" of alcohol abuse. You should notify the King of Sweden that you need a prize. You have already displayed a whole lot about you. Funny, I have not seen you on the list. You should notify the press, they missed you.

*******
Being allowed to work is certainly better than being found in the gutter, as the USAir Copilot we lost to dual addiction in Seattle a few years ago.
HIMSPROGRAM said:
I am not the only one who has had their life destroyed by the HIMS Program and the belief systems that the program is based on....Anyone is free to challenge any of my positions. In science, criticism is never taken personally.
Calling someone a NAZI is actually pretty personal, thereby relieving you of any pretense of science.

Here is a Scientific Observation: The ultimate validation of HIMS, no matter how you want to describe it as "NAZI" and "guys without problems", is that in a population which would have had about 400 firings to out on the street, since 1982, we have had about 370 make long careers and finish uneventfully. Nazi-schmatzi.

Past mistakes getting corrected? I thought you just said, it is a disease (which it is) not a personal failing (as in past mistakes).

I'm done. This is just feeding a troll. You have a looonnnng way in your recovery to go.
 
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You couldn't see it- I should have known. See, it really IS organic disease.

I suppose you really do know the "cause" of alcohol abuse. You should notify the King of Sweden that you need a prize. You have already displayed a whole lot about you. Funny, I have not seen you on the list. You should notify the press, they missed you.

Again, you are taking criticism of the disease model personally. In any other area of science criticism is rationally discussed. For example, when two chemists debate the pathway of a reaction it never gets personal. However, it always gets personal when the disease model is discussed. Again, there are directors of rehab facilities at prestigious universities and at ivy leagues who do say alcoholism is NOT a disease. I'm done arguing that point. I'm sure you are aware that there is a lot of criticism that it is not a disease from medical professionals.

I am not calling you a Nazi, I am pointing out through the Nazi example that Psychiatry CAN be misused. And HIMS Psychiatrists are misusing psychiatry.

Though, I'd be delighted to know on what medical basis you think you can claim that I have an organic brain disease? You have not seen me or my file, you have not taken any images of my brain. Pardon me, but am I the only one who doesn't see how there is something seriously wrong here?
 
Be glad that addiction is considered an organic disease. If society looked at it as a 'moral failing' (whatever that means), there wouldn't even be an option to obtain a drivers license, FAA medical or the ability to see your kids after a messy divorce.

We dont know 100% what gene 'causes' hypertension or many cases of diabetes. We still try to treat it and dont just turn our backs, shrug and say 'too bad he chose to have diabetes'.
 
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Be glad that addiction is considered an organic disease. If society looked at it as a 'moral failing' (whatever that means), there wouldn't even be an option to obtain a drivers license, FAA medical or the ability to see your kids after a messy divorce.

We dont know 100% what gene 'causes' hypertension or many cases of diabetes. We still try to treat it and dont just turn our backs, shrug and say 'too bad he chose to have diabetes'.

so you are admitting it's a disease for political purposes. This is exactly my problem with it. Don't get me wrong, if I was ATP and showed up drunk to a flight I'd be all about saving my career.

Your use of the diabetes example shows me you are missing the point. The key difference is we don't force people into thinking they have diabetes when they don't. And we can also take a medical test to see if you have diabetes.

Mental disorder is what society says it is. It is not a real disease like diabetes.

Some Psychiatrists also have argued the acceptance of the organic brain disease model has been widely accepted due to the dominant religion of christianity. That God made the soul untainted, and the disease model takes the cause of the behavior away from the soul and puts the blame onto an objective cause such as enzymes, genes, etc...

btw, I appreciate your logical and rational assertions vs. blatant name calling. I'll try and stay away from the whole Nazi thing myself as it obviously doesn't promote thoughtful discussion.
 
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A smart and trusted Leader? Babbitt is a stupid, cheap, drunkard. He had it all and was too stupid, drunk or cheap to call a cab. How many idiots in high places are we suppost to tolerate? I'm sure this fool will still get a huge government payoff that you and I will pay to him. Too bad he didn't drive off a cliff and save us a lot of money.
 
My purpose is not to enrage anyone, I am not trolling. I am simply speaking rationally about the misuse, failings, and damage that the HIMS Program is doing to pilots.

I am not the only one who has had their life destroyed by the HIMS Program and the belief systems that the program is based on.

Anyone is free to challenge any of my positions. In science, criticism is never taken personally. Interestingly, HIMS psychiatrists and the HIMS Program supporters always take criticism personally.

Without criticism what you got might be politics, or you might have religion. But you DON'T have SCIENCE.

The only problem with your statements is it makes you sound like an alcoholic pilot with all the rest of the "Dangerous Attitudes".
 
You couldn't see it- I should have known. See, it really IS organic disease.

I suppose you really do know the "cause" of alcohol abuse. You should notify the King of Sweden that you need a prize.

You mean I can get a Nobel Prize this year!?! Cool, because I know the reason people abuse alcohol and drugs!

They want to get f-d up!!! It's a choice we make because we like it. It's about time to start being honest about this crap. "It's a disease"... Who gives a f-? It doesn't make a damned difference to the end game and builds in an instant excuse for bad behavior.

I don't say any of this as a clean straight righteous person either, just someone that accepts responsibility for my own life; I drink, I smoke, I gamble... I do these things out of unabashed hedonism and nothing else. I accept that I am responsible for my actions so I moderate my intake so I can still reasonably control those actions.
 
I don't say any of this as a clean straight righteous person either, just someone that accepts responsibility for my own life; I drink, I smoke, I gamble... I do these things out of unabashed hedonism and nothing else. I accept that I am responsible for my actions so I moderate my intake so I can still reasonably control those actions.

^THIS^

It's too late to go fly, my wife finished her radiation therapy today and I am moderately buzzed on good red port. Life is good, everything in moderation and follow the rules. It's worked for the last 60 years for me.
 
It is a crime against humanity. I am not going to argue with you about wether or not alcoholism is a disease or not. Because it is not

This is where you go off the rails.

Believe what you will, but science IS on the side of the disease model of chemical dependency.

HIMS saves lives; treatment saves lives. I know, it saved my son.

I'm done with this thread and this poster.
 
This is where you go off the rails.

Believe what you will, but science IS on the side of the disease model of chemical dependency.

HIMS saves lives; treatment saves lives. I know, it saved my son.

I'm done with this thread and this poster.

Since it says "suspended" under his user ID, it looks like he's done too.
 
You mean I can get a Nobel Prize this year!?! Cool, because I know the reason people abuse alcohol and drugs!

They want to get f-d up!!! It's a choice we make because we like it. It's about time to start being honest about this crap. "It's a disease"... Who gives a f-? It doesn't make a damned difference to the end game and builds in an instant excuse for bad behavior.

I don't say any of this as a clean straight righteous person either, just someone that accepts responsibility for my own life; I drink, I smoke, I gamble... I do these things out of unabashed hedonism and nothing else. I accept that I am responsible for my actions so I moderate my intake so I can still reasonably control those actions.

Yup. Put me in that camp. It ain't a damn disease, it's lack of willpower.
 
You mean I can get a Nobel Prize this year!?! Cool, because I know the reason people abuse alcohol and drugs!

They want to get f-d up!!! It's a choice we make because we like it. It's about time to start being honest about this crap. "It's a disease"... Who gives a f-? It doesn't make a damned difference to the end game and builds in an instant excuse for bad behavior.

I don't say any of this as a clean straight righteous person either, just someone that accepts responsibility for my own life; I drink, I smoke, I gamble... I do these things out of unabashed hedonism and nothing else. I accept that I am responsible for my actions so I moderate my intake so I can still reasonably control those actions.

Right but what the HIMS Program believes is that if you drink like a retard in college and rack up a few drinking violations when you're young and dumb, then you can NEVER be moderate. You are forced into believing that you are brain diseased. It just ain't right. This is what the HIMS Program does.

It does not matter if you want to be a janitor or a pilot, if you don't drink you don't drink, and if you don't have a problem you don't got a problem! They are like trying to be 'safe' so they are forcing people in without problems. There is just absolutely no rhyme or reason, that's why people are living in a nightmare. You make some mistakes in the past, clean up, 5-10 years later you try and get a pilot license and all of the sudden you need treatment.

Absolutely NO TREATMENT facilities think I need help cause I got a DUI in college over 5 years ago, what happened is a bunch of cult members made it into the FAA and are pushing everyone they can into the 12 step program cause they like to sit around a circle hold hands and whine about how they are diseased. It also makes them feel better about themselves when they bring down other successful people. These are the kind of people who could never quit drinking in college when everybody else moved on to more important things like starting careers and starting families.

THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT WANT TO HELP ME ARE ALL CULTS. STRAIGHT UP CULTS! THIS IS ALL BULLCRAP! THIS IS A NIGHTMARE!!!
 
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Right but what the HIMS Program believes is that if you drink like a retard in college and rack up a few drinking violations when you're young and dumb, then you can NEVER be moderate. You are forced into believing that you are brain diseased. It just ain't right. This is what the HIMS Program does.

But that's where you are incorrect. The reality is those people will not moderate of their own accords. It's just a fact, part and parcel to the human condition. If you want to play with these toys you have to be smart enough to not get caught getting f-ed up. If you're not at least that smart, you probably aren't smart enough to fly people and are running on luck. Well, if you got 3 DUIs, let me tell you, your luck ain't doing so hot either. Basically you're a walking freaking catastrophy just waiting for a place to happen, and the FAA wants to not let you take a bunch of people with your dumb unlucky a$$ by flying an airplane when you finally fail for good.

It's really as simple as that. You have to PROVE YOU ARE NOT A DRUNK. You already proved you are a drunk, now you have to prove to an even greater standard that you are not a drunk. Dude, yo f-ed up and got caught, you're a dumbass, so solly, I'll cry for you. On top of that you still don't think you did anything wrong which is why I think the HIMS program is a failure, your mind is every bit as dangerous and lame today as it is if you're black out drunk yet they are letting you fly.
 
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So HIMS, the sad fact is that you're the exception not the rule and the world is built for the lowest common denominator.

Venting is probably somewhat cathartic but no one here can fix it. (With the possible exception of one whom you've already driven off. Smooth move there.) You'll either get through the program or you won't. I barely care enough to write this, only because I see a tiny opportunity in your story. Tiny but significant in that it'd at least be a move toward something positive since your postings so far have no indication that's the direction you're headed.

Have any of the Docs who've said you don't need treatment put it in writing, specifically addressed to FAA? They willing to put their money and reputations where their mouths are?

Might as well ask 'em to, even if it's useless, since having a pile of letters to frame next to your eventual FAA medical will make a nice collage on the wall as a testament to your character.

If you're going to be emotionally explosive and impulsive about the problem as you perceive it, you might as well discharge the weapon the correct direction... Downrange. Take all those letters and send 'em to pilot advocate organizations like AOPA too.

Otherwise, you're just posting on the Internet which stands about a snowball's chance in hell of changing the circumstances.
 
You make some mistakes in the past, clean up, 5-10 years later you try and get a pilot license and all of the sudden you need treatment.

Was this based on reporting the DUI on your application for a medical certificate/student pilot certificate? Are they saying that you can't get the certificate until you go through the program?
 
Right but what the HIMS Program believes is that if you drink like a retard in college and rack up a few drinking violations when you're young and dumb, then you can NEVER be moderate. You are forced into believing that you are brain diseased. It just ain't right. This is what the HIMS Program does.

It does not matter if you want to be a janitor or a pilot, if you don't drink you don't drink, and if you don't have a problem you don't got a problem! They are like trying to be 'safe' so they are forcing people in without problems. There is just absolutely no rhyme or reason, that's why people are living in a nightmare. You make some mistakes in the past, clean up, 5-10 years later you try and get a pilot license and all of the sudden you need treatment.

Absolutely NO TREATMENT facilities think I need help cause I got a DUI in college over 5 years ago, what happened is a bunch of cult members made it into the FAA and are pushing everyone they can into the 12 step program cause they like to sit around a circle hold hands and whine about how they are diseased. It also makes them feel better about themselves when they bring down other successful people. These are the kind of people who could never quit drinking in college when everybody else moved on to more important things like starting careers and starting families.

THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT WANT TO HELP ME ARE ALL CULTS. STRAIGHT UP CULTS! THIS IS ALL BULLCRAP! THIS IS A NIGHTMARE!!!

You're claiming you only have ONE alcohol-related incident in your life? I'm not talking just about a conviction for DUI, I'm talking about your tolerance for alcohol (functional with a high BAC), getting fired from a job or a poor performance review, or any other documented instances where alcohol was in control of you and not the other way around.
 
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You're claiming you only have ONE alcohol-related incident in your life? I'm not talking just about a conviction for DUI, I'm talking about your tolerance for alcohol (functional with a high BAC), getting fired from a job or a poor performance review, or any other documented instances where alcohol was in control of you and not the other way around.

Regardless of the answer to that question, shouldn't there be some evidence that the problem still exists before a person is coerced into a program? Would it perhaps be appropriate to undertake a medical evaluation of whether the person involved really has sobered up?
 
Regardless of the answer to that question, shouldn't there be some evidence that the problem still exists before a person is coerced into a program? Would it perhaps be appropriate to undertake a medical evaluation of whether the person involved really has sobered up?
Depends on the circumstances.

As I understand HIMS, a pilot would have to be:
A commercial pilot (which means that someone's had a medical for a while)
Employed as a commercial pilot
Had an alchohol issue come up during the course of that employment.

I'm not aware of any of this applying to someone who came in to apply for a medical the first time. But (and I'm guessing here based on what Bruce has said) if someone came in for initial certification and indicated that they'd had alcohol-related issues in the past, the FAA would investigate and if the facts they found showed that at that time the person was in the category of habitual alcohol abusers (based on BAC or something else) that they'd come back and say "if you wan't a medical, you'll need to go through this program". To my knowledge a single DUI by itself years ago wouldn't trigger this.

It's like someone who had a sex-crime conviction 25 years ago (hey, maybe it was statutory rape and he was 18 and she was 16) coming in for a job at a daycare center. There needs to be a clear understanding of what happened then and why things are different now, and a monitoring program to ensure that things really ARE different now. Don't like the philosophy of the program? Go do the work and convince the FAA of a working alternative for proving fitness for flight.
 
My purpose is not to enrage anyone, I am not trolling. I am simply speaking rationally about the misuse, failings, and damage that the HIMS Program is doing to pilots.

I am not the only one who has had their life destroyed by the HIMS Program and the belief systems that the program is based on.

Anyone is free to challenge any of my positions. In science, criticism is never taken personally. Interestingly, HIMS psychiatrists and the HIMS Program supporters always take criticism personally.

Without criticism what you got might be politics, or you might have religion. But you DON'T have SCIENCE.

Believe it or not, I agree 100% with what you say (but not how you say it).

edit: That is to say that God has nothing to do with sobriety unless you say it does. For the government to require your adherence to God is an abomination of our Constitution.
 
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Regardless of the answer to that question, shouldn't there be some evidence that the problem still exists before a person is coerced into a program? Would it perhaps be appropriate to undertake a medical evaluation of whether the person involved really has sobered up?

All of you guys are having a hard time believing this I know. You think, this person must have a problem if they are forcing him through this crazy program, right? but they are forcing me into this because my DUI was slightly above a 0.15, and I was driving like a retard which is why I got pulled over (so you could say not tolerance, but one time mistake?). What they are saying is I am an animal who can't stop at one drink so I have to be permanent abstinence.

Outside of the Church of Scientology, there are over 5,000 support groups for survivors of psychiatry. There is the anti-psychiatry coalition, any many other internet groups against Psychiatry who also specifically say they are not affiliated with Scientology. Scientology of course is controversial for it's goal of the global obliteration of Psychiatry, but there are just as many groups outside of the church interested in stopping Psychiatry.

To the above posts, yes I have been e-mailing professor's at large medical schools pleading for help and they are saying that this is all complete non sense and are willing 'to money where their mouth is'. They reviewed my files, and I told them how I matured and getting treatment is some kind of complete joke. Because they are the heads of departments, and distinguished professors they are fully aware of the misuse of Psychiatry that is going on. The problem is, it is really really hard to undo the damage from the evaluation I got from the FAA, they trick you by saying the evaluation has to be done by a Psychiatrist who specializes in 'aviation psychiatry', this way before you drop a few grand on an evaluation you're gonna call the FAA and ask them for a list of Psychiatrists who specialize in Aviation.


Because my DUI was slightly above a 0.15 I was sent to a HIMS Psychiatrist for an evaluation where the outcome of the evaluation was PRE DETERMINED based on the fact that my DUI was above 0.15. No I don't even drink moderately, even if I had been permanently abstinent for the last 5+ years, in his eyes I am permanently brain diseased, and I can't have an occasional glass of wine because in his eyes I am an animal that can't control myself. To him, permanent abstinence is not enough, I HAVE to believe I have a disease that I do not think exists. I think it is all self control. Which is why it ****es me off when iHenning tells me I can't stop yet he himself likes to indulge in the booze, come on man you're a fellow airman! Btw, iHenning, suppose I was one of these diseased individuals, what in the world would sitting in a AA do? It's not treatment, it's not a cure, you're just saying words out of your mouth, it's completely arbitrary and it's not based on science.

These people are truly sick human beings who are making me do this, and from what I get you guys are all thinking like there must be some kind of problem, I know I sound like I have a problem because I am complaining so much, and there must be a problem because they are forcing me into all of this right? But this is exactly what makes this the SICK JOKE that this is. The more you deny, the more it is a problem. They make you do a lot like the HIMS Program, so everyone thinks there has to be a problem! And you complaining makes it sound like you have a problem! IT has to be exposed.

You are all my fellow airmen, I made a mistake. But come on, we are a small group that are oppressed by our own government. We tend to be fairly rich and willing to do anything to fly, this makes us vulnerable and the FAA and Psychiatrists can do anything they want to us. They even want to screen ATPs for mental illness every 6 months. Which is a complete joke.

Yes I am fully aware complaining on the internet won't do any good, but I work long hours and live in my parents basement because 100% of my income goes to Lawyers and Psychiatrists. Complaining on the internet is all I have left, at least I can expose the complete stupidity and the sick joke that this is.

I already took responsibility for my behavior a long time ago. they want me to take responsibility for my DNA, this is absolutely unconscionable. I have lots of proof of my exemplary behavior but what they are saying is I could not have done it because I have a disease in my brain. Or I did do it, but because I have a disease in my brain I could 'relapse' which is not true, but even if it was the case, which it's not, what in the world is believing it going to do? In fact, if you believe it's a disease, then won't you relapse since you believe it's going to happen?

There is no logic or reason, which is what makes this a complete nightmare.
 
All of you guys are having a hard time believing this I know. You think, this person must have a problem if they are forcing him through this crazy program, right? but they are forcing me into this because my DUI was slightly above a 0.15, and I was driving like a retard which is why I got pulled over (so you could say not tolerance, but one time mistake?). What they are saying is I am an animal who can't stop at one drink so I have to be permanent abstinence.
Who is forcing you into some kind of program? How is this ruining your life? You have already said you are not trying to save your job. Are you just trying to get an FAA medical to fly recreationally?
 
If you acted like such a petulent child with the psychiatrist, I can see how he arrived at his conclusion that you are not quite through with your addiction issues.

HIMS is a way to get around congress's mandate to the FAA that there cannot be any addicted pilots in the air. Focus your energy on the politicians and administrators that wrote the rules, not the professionals who work with pilots to live under those rules.
 
Who is forcing you into some kind of program? How is this ruining your life? You have already said you are not trying to save your job. Are you just trying to get an FAA medical to fly recreationally?

Same question here. I am having a hard time believing this is for a 3rd Class many years after the DUI.

If it is, it's perhaps sad, and anyone caught in it would be rightly angry... But there's other hobbies.

I can handle thinking someone's driven enough to push through to fly recreationally because they really want to fly, too.

But there's details missing that still make me quite skeptical that this is all made up or we're not getting the whole story.

Running off Doc Bruce was also a serious mistake. I can't think of a person more dedicated to helping other pilots get a medical and fly.
 
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