Approach procedures in a retract

[MAKG1]

So, now that I'm an instrument pilot, I thought I'd try out a few approaches in other aircraft I'm qualified for. Took out a 177RG. Flew VFR 'cause traffic was NUTS, and the numbers not familiar enough.

I quickly discovered that I couldn't slow down reasonably at the IAF unless I dropped gear and 10 flaps, or else dialed the MP down to idle (not an option for me, as it requires ignoring a gear alarm -- 177RG sets it off only by throttle position). The plane wanted to descend at 120 knots at 16 inches MP and 500 FPM descent.

Do people fly the initial segment fast, or drop gear and flaps that early? I thought landing configuration was done at the FAF, not IAF.

 

[FORANE]

For me it depends on what approach I am doing, what the ceilings are and if I am in a hurry. In the Lancair on an ILS if I don't have the gear down by the time I reach the IAF, staying on the glideslope it will not slow down to gear speed even at idle power. If the ceilings are higher I might not mind but typically I have the gear down by the IAF.

 

[James331]

I drop my gear and configure one dot below GS or 3nm from the FAF, works well in fastish turboprops all the way to slower piston planes.

Carefully about pulling out too much power to descend, watch your CHTs.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Technique varies. For example, I prefer no-flap approaches and do them in everything from Arrows and Cutlasses to Bonanzas and Mooneys. Others prefer flaps.

Technique for gear varies also but less. Seems to be fairly standard for most pilots to drop the gear when crossing the FAF or intercepting the glideslope. I do not fly or teach the initial segment fast. I want to be at my approach descent speed before well before I intercept the FAC, whether vectored or full.

Assuming you are already at the speed you want, the lowering of the gear results in a 3° descent without doing much of anything else.

Where you are probably having some difficulty is that, in a retract, even something as relatively "dirty" as a Cutlass, it takes longer to slow down. So start earlier. What you really want to do is to learn (1) the power and configuration settings that will get the performance you want in each phase and (2) a sense of how long it takes that make and model to change slow down once you change it.

BTW, your difficulty is part of the reason why you see so many posts here recommending against starting this stiff on ones own. This type of initial learning of the airplane is, along with the development of a sustainable scan, a significant part of what a CFII does in the initial lessons.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I drop my gear and configure one dot below GS or 3nm from the FAF.

Carefully about pulling out too much power to descend, watch your CHTs.

You'll get into a big argument about shock cooling (especially in a Culass!!) So, to avoid that,

Carefully about pulling out too much power to descend, you'll scare the passengers when the gear warning goes off. (When I do complex endorsements I insist that I never hear the gear warning in normal operations. It tells me the pilot hasn't remained ahead of the airplane)

 

[James331]

You'll get into a big argument about shock cooling (especially in a Culass!!) So, to avoid that,

Carefully about pulling out too much power to descend, you'll scare the passengers when the gear warning goes off. (When I do complex endorsements I insist that I never hear the gear warning in normal operations. It tells me the pilot hasn't remained ahead of the airplane)

You won't get into arguments about the validity of shock cooling at a DZ or glider tow operation, they are very mindful of their CHT changes.



I've always had good luck keeping my MP in the green till I had the runway made on short final.



Using EGT and cowl flaps (if you got them) to hold CHTs is good, of course a nice JPI helps too.

3nm or 1 dot off, slow to VLO, gear down, slowing to VFE, flaps, slowing to VREF, etc.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You won't get into arguments about the validity of shock cooling at a DZ or glider tow operation, they are very mindful of their CHT changes.

I don't get into shock cooling arguments at all. Just wanted to point out there are other reasons for stepped power reductions when descending and approaching IFR.

 

[James331]

I don't get into shock cooling arguments at all. Just wanted to point out there are other reasons for stepped power reductions when descending and approaching IFR.

Indeed.

 

[ejensen]

Gear down go down worked for me in the Mooney. But you have to be slowed down.

 

[Hank S]

I slow down to approach speed and put out half flaps before reaching the IAF. When 1-1/2dots from glideslope intercept, drop the gear and she will do nothing for a minute then obediently follow the glideslope down. When I have visual on the runway, I decide if anything else needs to change to set her there, and move whichever controls are required to do so (more/less flaps, throttle, trim, yoke, etx.).

 

[MauleSkinner]

Where you are probably having some difficulty is that, in a retract, even something as relatively "dirty" as a Cutlass, it takes longer to slow down. So start earlier. What you really want to do is to learn (1) the power and configuration settings that will get the performance you want in each phase and (2) a sense of how long it takes that make and model to change slow down once you change it.

BTW, your difficulty is part of the reason why you see so many posts here recommending against starting this stiff on ones own. This type of initial learning of the airplane is, along with the development of a sustainable scan, a significant part of what a CFII does in the initial lessons.

Contrary to popular opinion, a complex endorsement isn't about "remembering to put the gear down", but rather learning the basics of the planning process to put the airplane where you want it, when you want it, at the speed and in the configuration you want. Being smooth, using minimal power changes, and understanding the drag effects of what you're throwing out into the wind (gear, flaps, prop, etc.)

I've seen far too many people go from idle to full power and back flying a VFR traffic pattern or a 3-degree glideslope because they didn't understand these relationships.

 

[Fearless Tower]

So, now that I'm an instrument pilot, I thought I'd try out a few approaches in other aircraft I'm qualified for. Took out a 177RG. Flew VFR 'cause traffic was NUTS, and the numbers not familiar enough.



I quickly discovered that I couldn't slow down reasonably at the IAF unless I dropped gear and 10 flaps, or else dialed the MP down to idle (not an option for me, as it requires ignoring a gear alarm -- 177RG sets it off only by throttle position). The plane wanted to descend at 120 knots at 16 inches MP and 500 FPM descent.



Do people fly the initial segment fast, or drop gear and flaps that early? I thought landing configuration was done at the FAF, not IAF.

Not sure how you are managing your power in the descent, but I tend to cruise at WOT high enough that I am running about 20-22" MP. Unless I am going into a big Class B airport, I will typically ease the throttle back as I descend to maintain that cruise MP. So I am arriving at the FAF at around 20" MP. It's been a few years since I flew a 177RG, but in most planes that has me within Vle at GS intercept.

 

[jordane93]

I drop my gear and configure one dot below GS or 3nm from the FAF

This is what I do as well.

 

[AdamZ]

So, now that I'm an instrument pilot, I thought I'd try out a few approaches in other aircraft I'm qualified for. Took out a 177RG. Flew VFR 'cause traffic was NUTS, and the numbers not familiar enough.

I quickly discovered that I couldn't slow down reasonably at the IAF unless I dropped gear and 10 flaps, or else dialed the MP down to idle (not an option for me, as it requires ignoring a gear alarm -- 177RG sets it off only by throttle position). The plane wanted to descend at 120 knots at 16 inches MP and 500 FPM descent.

Do people fly the initial segment fast, or drop gear and flaps that early? I thought landing configuration was done at the FAF, not IAF.

I'll put the gear down at the IAF and won't touch the flaps till I have the field made.

 

[Fearless Tower]

This is what I do as well.

Pretty much. I'd add that the only time I drop the gear before that is if ATC is keeping me high and setting me up for a slam dunk. Then I might drop the gear early to help with speed management on the approach.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I'll put the gear down at the IAF and won't touch the flaps till I have the field made.

This for me too. 17" and 2400 rpm gives me 120kts clean. Gear down to go down at the FAF gives me 500ft/min descent without touching the throttle. 120 kts bumps me a category, but in return I don't have to interpolate timefrom FAF to map or dh. Flaps when field's made.

Flies like it's on rails.

 

[MAKG1]

Not sure how you are managing your power in the descent, but I tend to cruise at WOT high enough that I am running about 20-22" MP. Unless I am going into a big Class B airport, I will typically ease the throttle back as I descend to maintain that cruise MP. So I am arriving at the FAF at around 20" MP. It's been a few years since I flew a 177RG, but in most planes that has me within Vle at GS intercept.

I was within Vle at 120 knots. The question was about technique, not limitations. I can fly this airplane well VFR.

I did get this airplane down within all limitations, including IFR PTS. But the technique seemed sloppy to me, in that the initial segment required putting the gear down.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I was within Vle at 120 knots. The question was about technique, not limitations. I can fly this airplane well VFR.



I did get this airplane down within all limitations, including IFR PTS. But the technique seemed sloppy to me, in that the initial segment required putting the gear down.

Okaaay, then what is your problem? If you are able to manage your speed to be under Vle at GS intercept, why are you asking the question????

Maybe I'm misreading you, but this seems dirt simple.

 

[MAKG1]

Okaaay, then what is your problem? If you are able to manage your speed to be under Vle at GS intercept, why are you asking the question????

Maybe I'm misreading you, but this seems dirt simple.

Maybe it is. It seemed odd to me to drop gear at the IAF.

Or maybe I'm just not patient enough with the slowdown. A 172 will get down to 90 easily in a descent at 1600 RPM.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Maybe it is. It seemed odd to me to drop gear at the IAF.

Or maybe I'm just not patient enough with the slowdown. A 172 will get down to 90 easily in a descent at 1600 RPM.

Unless you are getting slam dunked, you shouldn't need to drop the gear as early as the IAF. You should be able to wait until just before GS intercept or a mile before the FAF.

 

[denverpilot]

You'll get into a big argument about shock cooling (especially in a Culass!!) So, to avoid that,

Avoid the argument? Thats easy to do. Click "next message".

Contrary to popular opinion, a complex endorsement isn't about "remembering to put the gear down", but rather learning the basics of the planning process to put the airplane where you want it, when you want it, at the speed and in the configuration you want. Being smooth, using minimal power changes, and understanding the drag effects of what you're throwing out into the wind (gear, flaps, prop, etc.)



I've seen far too many people go from idle to full power and back flying a VFR traffic pattern or a 3-degree glideslope because they didn't understand these relationships.

And you get all nice and smooth and then go try to fly some tight formation on a bumpy day and wonder if the throttle handle or cable is going to wear out. Haha.

 

[JimNtexas]

The C-177RG is much slicker than Cutlass or Arrow and so requires a bit more descent planning.

On an ILS I can usually slow down to 100 knots or thereabout approaching the FAF just by pulling power to just above the warning horn, selecting 10 degrees of flaps, and just hold it level.

Bring in the power and lower the gear at the one dot point as mentioned above.

For VFR pattern entries from a descent I usually find myself lowering the gear and 10 degrees of flaps turning downwind from a 45 entry.

If you have to, push the blue knob in all the way, that will slow you down noticeably, although at the cost of possibly bothering the neighbors and making your pax nervous.

 

[Lucky]

I drop my gear and configure one dot below GS or 3nm from the FAF, works well in fastish turboprops all the way to slower piston planes.

Carefully about pulling out too much power to descend, watch your CHTs.

Exactly. Also in my AFM.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Maybe it is. It seemed odd to me to drop gear at the IAF.

I don't think anyone does that. Certainly no one here has suggested it.

Or maybe I'm just not patient enough with the slowdown. A 172 will get down to 90 easily in a descent at 1600 RPM.

But it's not a 172. It's a 172RG with MP as well as RPM and retractable gear. It simply requires better a bit of extra advance planning.

I'm not sure I understand your response to the posts. You asked about the techniques involved in doing instrument approaches in a Cutlass. You received virtually identical responses from everyone discussing airspeed and management of a Cutlass as well as to retracts substantially faster and sleeker than what you are flying. You've pretty much responded with "Don't tell me how to fly this airplane!" (Your dialog with Fearless Tower is a good example).

 

[Bill]

Gear down go down worked for me in the Mooney. But you have to be slowed down.

Yup. I trim the 201 for 90kts clean, and then change config at the FAF. Drop gear, put in takeoff flaps, and it goes down the pipe at 90kts with no trim changes and maybe a very small throttle change. (for an ILS)

 

[flyingron]

It depends on the aircraft you're flying. I suggest you get a copy of Peter Dogan's book and read and follow the early chapter where he explained command-performance and how to set up the six regimes of instrument flight and their power setting/aircraft configuration.

The Navion, for example, has a very LOW gear/flap extension speed. You're not using the gear as speed brakes as you may in some other aircraft.

 

[MAKG1]

I don't think anyone does that. Certainly no one here has suggested it.

But it's not a 172. It's a 172RG with MP as well as RPM and retractable gear. It simply requires better a bit of extra advance planning.

I'm not sure I understand your response to the posts. You asked about the techniques involved in doing instrument approaches in a Cutlass. You received virtually identical responses from everyone discussing airspeed and management of a Cutlass as well as to retracts substantially faster and sleeker than what you are flying. You've pretty much responded with "Don't tell me how to fly this airplane!" (Your dialog with Fearless Tower is a good example).

Well, I've gotten a lot of answers to questions other than what I've asked. Like how to fly a different airplane. It's not a Cutlass. It has a somewhat larger engine, laminar flow wing, no struts, and a stabilator.

There were a couple of answers to blast it fast until very late (and yes, I do that too, VFR, in this airplane, as that can be done at low power and Vle is pretty high -- though I prefer to get the gear down on downwind rather than short final) and one to drop gear at the IAF. They are not all the same.

The answers seem to mostly say to slow down early but without the gear. That will be a challenge around the terrain, as there is usually a descent on feeder routes as well, and even nonprecision approaches have long, nearly continuous descents of at least 5000 feet from MEA. One helpful response added to pull the throttle to just above the gear alarm. That's lower than the 16 inches I was using. 16 inches works nicely dirty, but not in a clean descent. The implication is raising the throttle during descent, not something I normally do on a complex or HP airplane.

The question here is not how to fly a Cardinal RG. With 20 hours in type, I know how to do that. It's how to fly it specifically in an instrument approach environment.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The question here is not how to fly a Cardinal RG. With 20 hours in type, I know how to do that. It's how to fly it specifically in an instrument approach environment.

I have at least 60 hrs in a Cardinal RG, all of that time was within 6-12 months of getting my IR ticket.

Never had a problem getting the gear down using the technique that I described above.

Works in most non-turbo piston airplanes.

 

[MAKG1]

I have at least 60 hrs in a Cardinal RG, all of that time was within 6-12 months of getting my IR ticket.

Never had a problem getting the gear down using the technique that I described above.

Works in most non-turbo piston airplanes.

Thanks, but getting the gear down is not the problem. In a 120 knot descent, I can just drop it. Vle is 126 knots.

It's a question about whether dropping gear that early is appropriate in an instrument approach.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Thanks, but getting the gear down is not the problem. In a 120 knot descent, I can just drop it. Vle is 126 knots.



It's a question about whether dropping gear that early is appropriate in an instrument approach.

So, it sounds like this is really a non-issue.


Again, the only reason to drop it early in the approach would be if you know you are high and are going to have trouble managing speed between the IAF and the FAF. In that case, putting the gear out early acts as a speed brake to help manage a steep descent.

 

[Palmpilot]

Thanks, but getting the gear down is not the problem. In a 120 knot descent, I can just drop it. Vle is 126 knots.

It's a question about whether dropping gear that early is appropriate in an instrument approach.

I don't see anything inappropriate about it; I think it's really just a matter of personal preference. The way I normally did it, once I was established on the approach course, was to put the gear down for my first descent. However, I think it's a good idea to also be prepared to put the gear down later, for those times when you're asked to keep your speed up.

 

[coloradobluesky]

With a 172 RG, I just put the gear and flaps down about a mile or two before the FAF. Then adjust the throttle, push the prop knob in and adjust trim for the ILS descent. I think I used 90 indicated.

 

[nddons]

Good thread. I need an IPC and will be doing it in a Cutlass once it gets out of overhaul.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The answers seem to mostly say to slow down early but without the gear. That will be a challenge around the terrain, as there is usually a descent on feeder routes as well, and even nonprecision approaches have long, nearly continuous descents of at least 5000 feet from MEA. One helpful response added to pull the throttle to just above the gear alarm. That's lower than the 16 inches I was using. 16 inches works nicely dirty, but not in a clean descent. The implication is raising the throttle during descent, not something I normally do on a complex or HP airplane.

You mean more of a challenge than doing the same in Colorado?

The question here is not how to fly a Cardinal RG. With 20 hours in type, I know how to do that. It's how to fly it specifically in an instrument approach environment.

Yes and no. Many instructors and pilots feel that a proper transition to a complex or high performance aircraft includes understanding the pitch/power/configuration relationships that others reserve for instrument training and still others never get around to learning.

The technique I use during descent is the same in every type aircraft I fly. I know what configuration will result in the level airspeed I want and begin moving down to that configuration during the descent so that I am there when leveling off. Of course, the airplane is not at that speed when it levels off, but I know that it will begin slowing to that speed when I get there. There's usually plenty of time.

Have you gone through the process of sitting down and considering what speeds you want at various points during the process of flying an approach. Personally I think people tend to go a bit overboard on this but I think approach level, precision descent, non-precision descent, and MDA level are essential to know. Then consider what aircraft configurations will produce them, go into the air VFR and see how they work and what it takes to slow from your higher cruise and descent speeds to get there.

 

[MAKG1]

Have you gone through the process of sitting down and considering what speeds you want at various points during the process of flying an approach. Personally I think people tend to go a bit overboard on this but I think approach level, precision descent, non-precision descent, and MDA level are essential to know. Then consider what aircraft configurations will produce them, go into the air VFR and see how they work and what it takes to slow from your higher cruise and descent speeds to get there.

Sure. That exercise is what motivated this thread.

I wanted to shoot the approach at 90 knots from the IAF, clean. I questioned (and still question) whether that's possible in this airplane. In practice, I gave up the "clean"part to get the 90 knots without an altitude excursion.

Large descents surely are in other places -- such as half of Colorado -- but the techniques described seem to presume there is a level phase during the approach. I find that I get very little of that even in non precision approaches, unless I go out to the flats where the MEAs are a lot lower.

The essential error seems to be that I need to be at 90 knots before the IAF, or it's not happening. And that 1 mile is probably not enough for that transition.

This airplane is around 20 knots faster than the Cutlass I used to fly, in cruise (I had a lot of trouble getting that plane above 115 knots, but this Cardinal RG cruised nicely at 135). There is a lot of speed to lose. Not (nearly) as much as a Mooney, but more than the 182T I fly around. And that 182 slows down real fast.

 

[Palmpilot]

This airplane is around 20 knots faster than the Cutlass I used to fly, in cruise (I had a lot of trouble getting that plane above 115 knots, but this Cardinal RG cruised nicely at 135).

Sounds like that Cutlass has gone to the dogs. The ones I've flown have all done over 130 knots in cruise.

 

[petrolero]

I seem to get vectors and so there's no real IAF to focus on. At some point when I'm close enough (say, about the time they begin vectoring me to intercept), I slow to about 120, clean, with power pulled back, and then drop gear and one notch 2 miles before the FAF (LOC, VOR) or when glide slope is one dot above (ILS, LPV). (Vfe, Vlo, Vle are all 140 so they are designed to be used as brakes).

Or just whenever I need it to slow down. I've had to yank power and extend gear and one notch on an arrival procedure in turbulence to keep the thing from speeding up too much.

On an ILS or LPV I can't get the thing slower than about 110 without really cutting the power. Top of the white is 95 so I always end up hacking the power to get the 2nd notch in - then speed is no factor as it's got plenty of drag at that point.

Being strutless and sleek, the 177RG is even more slippery than the 182. I don't see how anyone could gear-up either airplane unless they just never looked at the airspeed dial. These airframes won't slow down without the gear hanging down.

 

[Henning]

So, now that I'm an instrument pilot, I thought I'd try out a few approaches in other aircraft I'm qualified for. Took out a 177RG. Flew VFR 'cause traffic was NUTS, and the numbers not familiar enough.

I quickly discovered that I couldn't slow down reasonably at the IAF unless I dropped gear and 10 flaps, or else dialed the MP down to idle (not an option for me, as it requires ignoring a gear alarm -- 177RG sets it off only by throttle position). The plane wanted to descend at 120 knots at 16 inches MP and 500 FPM descent.

Do people fly the initial segment fast, or drop gear and flaps that early? I thought landing configuration was done at the FAF, not IAF.

It really kinda depends on the plane, that's why it's good to get some practice approaches in in a new type. Typically say in a 310 I am putting approach flaps in at the IAF, and dropping gear at FAF. I manage my energy coming into the IAF by pulling the prop and throttle back to the bottom of the green arcs when I started final descent to the IAF, and I aim to level off about a mile prior as I'll typically only need to lose 25 kts from descent to blue arc speed and in the 310 at the bottom of the green that takes around a mile. When the flaps come in if I trim for 120, I'll adjust the power a little bit to hit the slope depending on wind to determine which way. At the FAF I'll drop the gear and add power to make the glide slope or rate of descent. Once I break out, if close, I throw in the rest of the flaps, trim for Vmc, and adjust power to meet the visual glide slope/rate of descent desired.

 

[Henning]

Thanks, but getting the gear down is not the problem. In a 120 knot descent, I can just drop it. Vle is 126 knots.

It's a question about whether dropping gear that early is appropriate in an instrument approach.

No, especially not in a twin, but even in a single, if you have an engine failure on approach in the clag, you want to be able to just pull back the prop and glide as close to airport property and CFR as you can get.
You can do it if you get held for a slam dunk, or mismanage your descent, but you want to avoid it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sure. That exercise is what motivated this thread.

I wanted to shoot the approach at 90 knots from the IAF, clean. I questioned (and still question) whether that's possible in this airplane. In practice, I gave up the "clean"part to get the 90 knots without an altitude excursion.

It is. Guaranteed. Even "clean."

Why do you bother asking when you've already decided on the answer.