If you are on a hot approach and have the visual opportunity, you can always throw in a slip...
Approach procedures in a retract
- Thread starter MAKG1
- Start date
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wow.....a slip in IMC.
Wow.....a slip in IMC.
As I said, "if you have a visual opportunity."
It's not infrequent to pop into visual pockets on approach. If the opportunity presents, why not?
Besides, with SVT it's not a big deal in solid...
Maverick
Line Up and Wait
I sold my 177RG about 9 years ago so its been a while but here's what I remember. I always liked to be at 10 degrees flaps, gear up and stable at 100 knots prior to the FAF. As I recall 19 inches MP with 10 degrees flaps would have me flying level at 100 knots. Upon arrival at the FAF or GS intercept I would put my gear down. Without making a change in my power setting I would maintain 100 knots at a 400 FPM descent due to the increased drag of the gear. This worked out very well for me on ILS approaches.
I have not flown any approaches since I sold the airplane.
Jean
Realistically though, any IR rated pilot should be able to throw the plane into a hard full deflection slip while holding the nose at 5°up and release it and be able to recover from the result. If you couldn't you wouldn't have passed unusual attitude on your check ride. Unusual attitudes are in your bag of tricks.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
well....so much for that stabilized approach....As I said, "if you have a visual opportunity."
Besides, with SVT it's not a big deal in solid...
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
It is. Guaranteed. Even "clean."
Why do you bother asking when you've already decided on the answer.
I'm looking for a better answer.
Just 'cause I found something that met spec doesn't mean I'm all that happy with it.
Henning's engine failure point is a good one as well. Not that I'm going to glide to the airport on an approach, but I'll be able to get further from the mountains.
I'm not sure how you can guarantee it's possible to descend at 500 FPM and 90 knots clean without setting off the gear warning. This isn't a 172RG or even a 182 retract. It's worth taking the airplane up again and experimenting with that, 'cause it might be possible. Then, I need to know what it takes. It's not something I ever needed to do in this airplane VFR.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why do you want to fly the whole segment (IF all the way to the FAF) at 90 kts? You just trying to build time/maximize your time in the air?
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
That still doesn't make any sense. 121 guys don't fly the same speed for that whole segment.
If that's how you want to fly it, that's your prerogative. But it really is junior varsity flying. If you ever start doing serious IFR into busy Class B airports, it is going to bite you....or you are going to tick a lot of people off.
FWIW, the CFII that I finished up my IR rating taught me the same.....and the DPE (active United captain) specifically asked why I was slowing down so early.
![brian]](/community/data/avatars/m/21/21096.jpg?1456258959){kind=avatar}
brian]
Cleared for Takeoff
This is me right now. Even at idle, it can be a challenge in some weather conditions to get a -35 down to the 100MHP gear/flap speed without initiating a climb. I'm trying to get the power settings figured out such that when I'm at the final approach fix, it's time to drop the gear..
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
Well, JV flying is appropriate for a guy who just finished his IR.
Things happen slower at the slower speed, and I was trained that way as well.
Though I did do one "best forward speed" ILS at KSJC on my check ride, with a FedEx "heavy" behind me. So, yes, it's an option to fly it faster, and perhaps I'll try that out. VFR the first time, of course, as the result is likely to be excessive speed at the FAF and an unstabilized final segment. It wasn't a big deal in the 172, as it couldn't go all that fast anyway.
Note there is a similar issue in a hold. Slower (timed) holds are safer holds, as they take up less space.
Last edited:
well....so much for that stabilized approach....
For VFR I never particularly believed in it, and for IFR I want to be stabilized on profile and on energy crossing the IAF, which is why I choose to address my excess energy issues early and completely rather than try and do this bit an piece reduction while also trying to maintain precision flying. Even at the worst ATC has ever slam dunked me I've always managed my target speed by IAF. Now sometimes they request higher than target, but then I fly the whole approach up one speed category and take care of the energy visual at the bottom. No, I don't believe I can cause shock cooling with the throttles. Most planes if you close the throttle an keep trimming nose up as you hold the plane level will slow down quit rapidly with just a touch of added cross control to 'pizza' with and scrub a bit extra to drop it through gear and flap speeds.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
If that is your reason and what you want to do, that's fine. Although I would recommend putting out 10 degrees of flaps between the IF and FAF rather than the gear. Cessna gear takes a long time to suck back up if you have to and I personally don't like the idea of running that slow clean - I think you'd have to have the power waaay back. I'd rather run a higher MP and drop the gear just before GS intercept.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
"Should" being the operative word...you ask somebody to demonstrate a forward slip, and as often as not, they demonstrate a skid.
"Should" being the operative word...you ask somebody to demonstrate a forward slip, and as often as not, they demonstrate a skid.
If they do that then they shouldn't have passed their PP ride.
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, I've only had my IR for 5 years, and I'm not current, so it may well be JV flying. But doesn't it depend on the approach? Obviously I wouldn't slow down at the IAF on an RNAV approach, but what about these ILS and GPS approaches? Don't you slow it down on your outbound procedure turn so you don't go too far out?
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1511/05078IL10.PDF
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1511/05078VA.PDF
Even on the ILS I'm more often than not vectored for the approach, so when I intercept the localizer inside of WENBU, I'm configuring and slowing down.
I've only done 80 knot approaches in a 172, so I'm anxious to do them in a Cutlass.
Last edited:
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've got a few hundred hours in a 177RG but that was many years ago. But in every certified retract I've flown, it's quite possible to slow below Vle sans flaps as long as you can fly level for a few miles. The key is to make a power reduction to something just a little above where the gear horn kicks in and do it prior to reaching the IAF. Then use the gear to descend at the FAF or when starting down when you're inbound on an approach with no FAF.
Using the gear to initiate your final descent is a habit that makes it far less likely you'll ever find yourself sliding instead of rolling on the runway. For similar reasons I strongly recommend you avoid extending any flaps before the gear is confirmed down.
I'm also opposed to any SOP that involves closing the throttle far enough to activate the gear horn other than an occasional and very brief event to verify that the horn actually works. If you regularly hear the horn during approaches you're making it more likely you'll ignore the horn when it counts.
I like maintaining a constant speed since it makes backing up with time simpler.
Last edited:
denverpilot
Tied Down
I had an instructor who disliked very much the negative reinforcement of slow flight and air work that was done with the gear horn blaring and everyone on board ignoring it.
He mandated an out loud call out anytime the gear horn was on about exactly why it was on, and why it was deferred not to drop the gear and never allowed any chain of events that wouldn't either silence it or drop the gear, such that you'd ignore it for any length of time with the result eventually being a landing.
A callout of "gear horn deferred for slow flight" was allowable only if the intention was to speed back up to silence it at altitude.
Allowing it to be blaring down an approach to a landing was absolutely taboo. You either immediately dropped the gear and added power to deal with the drag, or you went around and set the whole thing up better. If you were too fast to drop it, you probably did something wrong.
He didn't want anyone he taught learning to ignore the thing.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
What's the point of slow flight with the gear up? Isn't slow flight supposed to be flare practice? Same deal with power off stalls.
The only reasons I can come up with for a gear horn going off intentionally are a nose down unusual attitude recovery or spin recovery, and those won't last long.
I won't tolerate a gear horn either. If it goes off, gear goes down, or it gets silenced some other way.
The only reasons I can come up with for a gear horn going off intentionally are a nose down unusual attitude recovery or spin recovery, and those won't last long.
I won't tolerate a gear horn either. If it goes off, gear goes down, or it gets silenced some other way.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Great question. Hell if I know. We didn't do it. Haha. He'd say, "let's get the gear down and slow up" but he'd obviously run into some fellow CFIs at that club who were doing it and he wasn't impressed. I got the distinct impression there were some CFIs that were just time building and people seem to love to tell me stuff like this when we're flying together. I'm that guy who everyone tells their life story to, even in non-aviation life, who just goes home and wonders aloud to his wife why people tell me these things. Haha. She's a magnet for it too. If someone is having a life crisis, they're telling her all about it.
Best I've ever figured is we both listen pretty well and tend not to be overly judgmental about stuff since it's just real life and stuff happens to people.
I've been pretty damned luckily overall with CFIs, in all honesty. Some of the stories I've heard from mine about some other CFIs have downright made me angry that other people have had to learn from them, really. And they're real stories, not just people with axes to grind. But stuff that makes you wonder what the ****?
All of my CFIs have had different personality types in some ways, but all have had a particular drive to be really good at teaching. I really like that. When I've toyed in my head with going on through with more ratings and maybe teaching I think, "Man, I'd have to really be on my game to do that right. It'd be embarrassing not to be at least as good at it as the folks who taught me, if I'm going to do that someday and pay it all forward."
Even the one I totally disagreed with his style was still doing it because he thought what he was passing on was damned important, and I can't fault that in the big picture.
Only weird one was that I did a BFR once with one CFI that I wouldn't bother hiring again, but it was more because he really seemed distracted the whole time and didn't really challenge me on anything.
Last BFR was with Jesse and he messed with my head mostly, asking some regulation questions that had me thinking too hard for non-obvious stuff. The flight portion wasn't particularly difficult, but he did make it interesting enough that I had to think.
The distracted guy kinda just hurried through all the requirements and bailed quickly back to his motorcycle to get somewhere. I suspect he had an appointment and was just running behind that day. That was a weird day. I wouldn't go so far as to say the BFR was pencil whipped but it was over and done with so fast I was wondering if I missed something. I was referred to him by someone else I knew, and even he said that wasn't normal for him. Everyone has a distracted day at work I suppose. No big deal.
Anyway, sorry about the side topic, but I'm damned grateful for the CFIs I've had. Their professionalism and ability to sit there calmly while I figured it all out, has been pretty impressive to me for the last 23 years.
Bill
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 15,113
- Location
- Southeast Tennessee
- Display Name
Display name:
This page intentionally left blank
I don't like it, I will keep the throttle above the point where the horn comes on.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
Gear horns, whatever.
Just have a system, and don't change from it.
I have my gear down at latest 3nm from the FAF, or 1 dot off the GS, I say out loud 3 green, or gear down for landing land, or gear up for landing water, then run checklist.
On short final I do the same, minus the checklist, plus a GUMPS
In my flare sight picture, at the point slightly before I'm too low on energy, I make the gear check one more time with the same verbal call out.
Just have a system, and don't change from it.
I have my gear down at latest 3nm from the FAF, or 1 dot off the GS, I say out loud 3 green, or gear down for landing land, or gear up for landing water, then run checklist.
On short final I do the same, minus the checklist, plus a GUMPS
In my flare sight picture, at the point slightly before I'm too low on energy, I make the gear check one more time with the same verbal call out.
Bill
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 15,113
- Location
- Southeast Tennessee
- Display Name
Display name:
This page intentionally left blank
And I do. Clean 90kts to the FAF, then gear down and 1st notch of flaps. Slight throttle adjustments as needed to stay on the slope, full flaps when runway is in sight.
I think your point is well taken. It would seem to me that there is no reason not to slow down after the IAF if you are simply running a timer as to when to start the procedure turn inbound. It's going to take the same time whether you are going 90 knots or 120knots. But as you say, it's going to keep you closer in.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's a choice he's making which is just as legit as any other.
In retracts, it sounds like I do what you do - plan for two different "approach level" speeds. The first I refer to as my "vectoring" speed although it applies to full approaches as well. It's the speed I initially use after leveling off from the en route environment. It's higher than my FAF/GSI speed - no reason to go that slow that early - but it makes it easier to slow down later on.
My final approach level speed is the same as the one I use for my gear-down, no-flap ILS descent speed. I generally move to that when about to receive that final intercept vector or just reaching the entry of a PT but it will vary with the aircraft I'm flying since some slow down more quickly than others.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
It is very situational. An example:
When flying the Mooney 201, my initial approach (or "vectoring" speed - see my previous post) is 120 KTS. I prefer to fly the ILS itself with no flaps at 105.
Last year I was heading to an airport where there was going to be a weekend fly-in. Like me, a good number of others headed in on Friday IFR when the weather was marginal. As I was vectored downwind, ATC accompanied the vector with, "You are 6th in line for the approach."
Figuring that I didn't want to fly all the way to West Yehupetz, I replied, "If it helps any, I can slow to 105."
ATC's response? "Thank you!"
Kind of the opposite of being asked to keep your speed up.
Good on OPs desire to develop a reliable and effective SOP for phases of flight , over time they become subconsciously activated and it makes IFR flying so much easier , you can focus more on the big picture and the procedure as flying the plane just become a natural habit .
When I instructed a lot this was one of the biggest things commonly missing for rich guys in bonanzas boring holes in the clouds .
When I instructed a lot this was one of the biggest things commonly missing for rich guys in bonanzas boring holes in the clouds .
OK... if you really insist on being at 90 at the IAF in a 177RG with the gear up, you will need to bring MP to close to 15in and 2100rpm. Even then, you may need some flaps. And you will need to be in level flight, so advanced planning (as per some folks, here) will be needed.
Now... why you insist on doing that (I know you said that's how you were taught and trained) when you move into higher performance aircraft, really baffles me (as well as some others here). Yes, there is something to be said for sticking to SOP, but there are practical limits. (I'm sure the CRJ captain won't be at 90 at anytime in the air...and when he gets into a 172, I'm sure he won't be trying to do 140 at the IAF).
The bigger picture of this aspect of aviation is to seek to fly to the practical capabilities of the machine you are flying. You should be able to enter the IAF at moderate cruise in a 177RG, slow down to around 110 just before the FAF. Your power would be around 17in/2100rpm. Then, drop gear, flaps 10 and descend on the glideslope at 90 (if that's what you wish - I do it faster). You missed some valuable instruction somewhere along the way (either you weren't taught or you missed it).
It's your perogative if you don't want to do that. I just hope I don't find myself behind you waiting to do an approach.
Now... why you insist on doing that (I know you said that's how you were taught and trained) when you move into higher performance aircraft, really baffles me (as well as some others here). Yes, there is something to be said for sticking to SOP, but there are practical limits. (I'm sure the CRJ captain won't be at 90 at anytime in the air...and when he gets into a 172, I'm sure he won't be trying to do 140 at the IAF).
The bigger picture of this aspect of aviation is to seek to fly to the practical capabilities of the machine you are flying. You should be able to enter the IAF at moderate cruise in a 177RG, slow down to around 110 just before the FAF. Your power would be around 17in/2100rpm. Then, drop gear, flaps 10 and descend on the glideslope at 90 (if that's what you wish - I do it faster). You missed some valuable instruction somewhere along the way (either you weren't taught or you missed it).
It's your perogative if you don't want to do that. I just hope I don't find myself behind you waiting to do an approach.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
Well, like most people, I never got any instrument training in a high performance or complex aircraft as part of my IR, which is why I'm exploring it now. I'll try out your procedure.
At some point, you probably will get behind me on an approach. You're at KHWD, right?
What one learns in training and what happens in practice often differ somewhat, at least for technique. Though I'll suggest a CRJ is not relevant. The V-speeds for a 177RG are much closer to a 172 or 182 than they are for any jet.
Though, having been in the back of an ERJ recently, the approach speed was a LOT slower than I expected. Less than 140 ground speed on the final approach segment.
At some point, you probably will get behind me on an approach. You're at KHWD, right?
What one learns in training and what happens in practice often differ somewhat, at least for technique. Though I'll suggest a CRJ is not relevant. The V-speeds for a 177RG are much closer to a 172 or 182 than they are for any jet.
Though, having been in the back of an ERJ recently, the approach speed was a LOT slower than I expected. Less than 140 ground speed on the final approach segment.
JimNtexas
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2006
- Messages
- 2,259
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Display Name
Display name:
Jim - In Texas!
I'm coming up on 300 hours in the C177RG and am current in it.
First, you're correct in that those comparing the Cardinal to the Gutless are way off base. The closest GA comparison is a Mooney, not the poor fat old Gutless.
It certainly is possible to slow down to 90 knots at the IAF. Ten degrees of flap, power just above the gear horn, level flight will do it. As several of us have suggested.
My question for you is 'why are you flying so slow in a fast airplane'? I fly out of Austin Bergstrom, which is a busy class C airport. You won't make friends in the TRACON if you are at 90 knots at the IAF.
I am at 110 - 120 or so at the IAF and probably 90-100 at the FAF, where I lower the gear using the one dot technique.
Frankly, because a CFI has 10000 hours in airliners doesn't impress in and of itself. Hopefully your guy has enough GA experience and ego control to respect and understand how GA airplanes differ from airliners.
I suspect he wants you to fly slow because you're new at this. If so, that's fine, but I hope at some point he takes you to a busy airport to learn how its done there.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
Actually, my CFII was a part timer. He's a Ph.D. scientist at LBNL. He's never going to airlines.
We did very little training at airliner airports, just because you can't get approaches (and especially missed approaches) in the busy airspace easily at all. But we did train at busy GA airports. For those, you want slow approaches because they are full of student pilots in slow airplanes.
Now, I have gotten "best forward speed" requests before when I have flown into busy airports. And it's not a problem in a draggier airplane. Flying into Fresno in a CAP 182 when it was absolute nuts most recently (ANG and CalFire and a major CAP exercise at the same time, plus the usual airliner traffic). And my IR check ride took us to San Jose International where we had to shoot an ILS with a FedEx DC10 on our tail. Definitely not a 90 KIAS approach.
So, I'll try it out on the Cardinal. VFR, in case the approach isn't so good.
We did very little training at airliner airports, just because you can't get approaches (and especially missed approaches) in the busy airspace easily at all. But we did train at busy GA airports. For those, you want slow approaches because they are full of student pilots in slow airplanes.
Now, I have gotten "best forward speed" requests before when I have flown into busy airports. And it's not a problem in a draggier airplane. Flying into Fresno in a CAP 182 when it was absolute nuts most recently (ANG and CalFire and a major CAP exercise at the same time, plus the usual airliner traffic). And my IR check ride took us to San Jose International where we had to shoot an ILS with a FedEx DC10 on our tail. Definitely not a 90 KIAS approach.
So, I'll try it out on the Cardinal. VFR, in case the approach isn't so good.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
No argument there...unfortunately it doesn't change anything.
brian]
Cleared for Takeoff
Pfft.. dude needs to take a ride in a 1947 or 1948 -35 in the winter. In the summer - no big. I can get down to gear speed (100 MPH) with just above the MP that causes the gear horn. Winter time - forgetaboutit... Might even need to initiate a climb to get to down to 100MPH.
Anyone see an STC for a drag chute on an old -35 ??!! These sucker are SLICK!!
denverpilot
Tied Down
brian];1939321 said:
What's any of that got to do with whether or not you ignore it or acknowledge it with a plan to make it stop?
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
What ever he is comfy with, personally in a 177RG I'd just take it to the FAF at normal cruise speed, shoot the ILS at VFE, but that's me. Whatever
The guy should go the speed he feels most confident at, he'll speed up with experience, but no way would I try to push him to fly a IAP faster than he is comfy with.
If I'm behind him on the approach, I'll do a lap or two in the hold, no biggie, who cares, if it's a towered airport they shouldn't expect a 177 to be flying the approach at warp speed, they shouldn't be stacking fast movers right behind him.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree. I had a cousin who retired after many years as a captain at United, and his favorite saying was "Know your limitations." The day I got my instrument rating, I suddenly understood exactly what he was talking about, because it was obvious to me that I was licensed to get into trouble to a far greater degree than ever before.
It's pretty normal though, for controllers at an airline hub to ask slow movers to keep their speed up.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
It occurs to me that I normally made an exception to the above for a precision approach. In that case I usually left the gear up until intercepting the glide slope, because it simplifies the task of establishing the desired rate of descent at a high workload time.
Although I've flown some long cross countries in a Cardinal, I'm not sure how many instrument approaches I'm flown in one, but the method described by JimNtexas, using ten degrees of flaps at 100 knots, sounds pretty reasonable.
By the way, did your instrument instructor teach you to make "gait charts" for the aircraft you commonly fly? They are tables of settings for the six configurations commonly required for instrument flight, i.e., climb, cruise, cruise descent, approach level, approach descent, and non-precision descent. (Peter Dogan refers to it as a "power sheet" in his book.)
Last edited:
Maverick
Line Up and Wait
I remember my primary instructor telling me about a time when he was in the traffic pattern in a 172 at Detroit City Airport (KDET) and the tower controller had him extend his downwind leg all the way out to the Detroit river because they had a Lear Jet over the river and they wanted to bring the Lear in before allowing my instructor to land. That is a pretty good distance between the airport and the river. Being over the city he was not about to stay at pattern altitude as he got further away from the airport so he started climbing. We was a bit ticked off at the tower controller for extending him out so far because he had plenty of time to land and get off the runway before the Lear Jet landed. When they finally turned him in behind the Lear Jet, he started a cruise power descent back to pattern altitude and the controller had to call him and tell him to slow down as he was overtaking the Lear. He did that purposely to show the controller that there was no need for what they did in extending him that far downwind. To my knowledge he did not get in any trouble for doing that. From what he said that was a frequent thing he had to put up with at that airport and it really ticked him off.
Last edited: