Any advice for flying over class B airspace?

cowman

cowman

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Planning on a trip tomorrow UIN -> SIK which takes us right over the heart of STL airspace. I note that the forecast is clear and the top of that airspace is at 8000.... plan is to fly 9500 and go right over it and be on flight following. I know it's legal, just wondering if there are any tips/suggestions/hazards that I'm not aware of.

Return trip will probably be 10,500 on the reverse course... unless headwinds are gonna be really bad then I might try to opt for 8500 but that seems close for comfort.... other option would be to divert around/under.

Guess another option would be to get cleared through... IDK what the odds of that actually happening would be though... my direct course would take me close to but not into the inner ring ~6-7nm from lambert field.
 
Stl approach has been very accommodating in my experience. Just call far enough out and they will most likely work you in

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 
I just requested clearance through MSP class B a couple weeks ago. First time through class B for me. 7500' NW to NE - no problem. My biggest concern was that I wasn't handed to approach until 5-10 miles out. So, being the first time, I was unsure what would happen and feared being denied and having to make a hard right to skirt around or go under at the last minute. In the end it was really a non-event.
 
Direct to KFYG, then direct to FAM would add only 5 miles to you distance over the ground and keep you out of the class B. Stay below 5,000'msl to avoid the jet traffic arriving and departing in that area.

If you're set on flying direct, definitely get flight following. Also, if you want to know where the traps are for transient VFR aircraft, look at the STL VFR Fly Way chart. The pale grey arrival and departure paths show you where you should try to avoid conflicts with commercial aircraft arriving and departing the STL area. The pale blue flyways are recommended VFR routes within the class B.
 
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I fly through STL Class B often. Not a big deal at all. I have flown as low as 4500 right through STL just outside of their inner ring.
I always use flight following and follow directions promptly if asked to deviate from my direct path. I was vectored once for traffic.
Be professional and they will treat you the same. I communicate no differently than the commercial traffic that they are handling.
 
You didn't mention whether or not you plan on being on flight following. Assuming you will, it is most likely a non-event. If not, you aren't obligated to talk to them, but I probably would let approach know what my intentions were. They may want to assign you a code while you are in/near the airspace.
 
STL is a sleepy Class B airport nowadays. Maybe it should be demoted to Class C.

It was once a busy hub for TWA. Then American bought TWA with the promise of keeping the hub, but they broke that promise, leaving huge concourses sitting idle. So now STL mainly gets regional jets, flying the locals to big hubs. It's much like any Class C or D airport.

Anyway, STL is now so slow there's no reason to worry about flying through their airspace. Just ask for flight following and make sure they say you are cleared into Bravo.

I flew VFR through their Bravo a week ago, and they just asked me to keep my present altitude and heading until I was past a tiny bit of traffic, then they let me do as I pleased. I heard Approach talking to another VFR pilot who was sightseeing down the river near the Cardinals baseball game, and they were very welcoming to him -- I remember hearing them offer that he could even fly over the TFR as long as he talked to them.
 
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If you're not in a hurry... LAND at KSTL! Rnwy 11/29 is 9,001 x 150 and not used much. You can get 2 or 3 touch and goes on a single pass. The airliners don't like it because it's further away from the (empty) terminals.

Really good place to get landing at a Bravo airport checked off your bucket list.
 
STL ,is fine,if your on flight following ,they will clear you through,and if your not looking to go above,they will usually clear you through the class B ,at an altitude that is convenient to them.
 
woodchucker said:
You didn't mention whether or not you plan on being on flight following. Assuming you will, it is most likely a non-event. If not, you aren't obligated to talk to them, but I probably would let approach know what my intentions were. They may want to assign you a code while you are in/near the airspace.
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The challenge there is that the class B's I'm familiar with love to vector you under flight following, even if you're outside their airspace. That kind of ruins the point of staying outside their airspace.
 
The risks of a B overflight include hypoxia. You're not required to have oxygen at 10500, but it's a good idea.

The first symptoms are that you get stupid, slow, uncoordinated, and unaware, rather like getting drunk. If this is at night, night vision suffers early.

B transitions really aren't that bad. Just have a plan in case you are told to remain clear. The easiest place to cross is often right over midfield, crosswise to the runways in use.
 
It's just like flying at 9500 or 10500 over class C, D, or G airspace.
 
On a more general view:

What's with the fear of Bravo?
I see many posts about going over, under, or around it. What stops people from going THROUGH it? Maybe I've done too much flying in the Los Angeles basin and Dallas / Fort Worth metroplex. I tell them where I want to go and they route me through.

If you can articulate your question on this forum, you can key the mike and make the request to a controller.
 
rolivi said:
On a more general view:

What's with the fear of Bravo?
I see many posts about going over, under, or around it. What stops people from going THROUGH it? Maybe I've done too much flying in the Los Angeles basin and Dallas / Fort Worth metroplex. I tell them where I want to go and they route me through.

If you can articulate your question on this forum, you can key the mike and make the request to a controller.
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It's not fear, it's if they do talk to you around here (I'm looking at you ORD) expect them to tell you to go 70-90 miles out of your way. Chicago will almost never let you go over - and even more rare let you through the airspace VFR if transitioning. Detroit isn't as bad, but they usually say remain clear.

I got an ORD over flight once. I departed RFD at midnight local. At 3pm - ain't never gonna happen.
 
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I've flown on top of the NYC Bravo several times. The Bravo ceiling is at 7,000 msl so you don't find yourself in hypoxic altitudes. Flight following is easy to get as I think they want to be talking to overflights...
 
I need to try out ATL and ORD.

I do the 2nd and 4th busiest BRAVO airports routinely. Doesn't seem like much of a thing to me.

And for the readers... I'm a 360hr PPL. Working on that IR.
 
cowman said:
I note that the forecast is clear and the top of that airspace is at 8000[.]

Return trip will probably be 10,500 on the reverse course[,] unless headwinds are gonna be really bad then I might try to opt for 8500 but that seems [too] close for comfort[.]
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Why are you uncomfortable with being 500' above Class B? Are you worried you might make a 500' altitude deviation, or do you have other concerns? (I wouldn't want to deprive myself of oxygen unless the alternative is a worse hazard.)
 
wilkersk said:
Direct to KFYG, then direct to FAM would add only 5 miles to you distance over the ground and keep you out of the class B. .
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In his scenario he is out of the class B. He's above it.

In terms of above with flight following, I would expect to get a periodic vector for traffic if my route crosses IFR arrival or departure paths.

Those same paths, at a higher traffic density, typically make the difference between hearing "cleared into Class B" and "remain clear of Class B".

I guess it goes without saying (or should) that different Class Bs will have marginally different procedures and even individual controllers may vary on how much the like extra workload.
 
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My advice? Make sure your Mode C transponder is turned on. That's the only thing that is different than overflying any other airspace.

I take that back. I don't know if you need a transponder if you're overflying class A.
 
Sac Arrow said:
My advice? Make sure your Mode C transponder is turned on. That's the only thing that is different than overflying any other airspace.

I take that back. I don't know if you need a transponder if you're overflying class A.
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Not just on while you're over the airspace, but any time you're within the 30nm Mode C Veil around Class B airspace.

If you're overflying Class A (assuming you have an aircraft that can get to 60,000ft), yes, you'll need Mode C unless your aircraft was originally certificated without an electrical system.
 
I would just overfly it. no different than overflying any other controlled airspace, just like Ed said. I would make certain to get an update altimeter setting though.

Every time I go into controlled airspace I get vectored somewhere I don't want to be. I don't fly VFR to be told where to go.
 
STL is a very quiet Bravo. Most likely the'll clear you through if you pick a lower altitude.
 
If you are ABOVE the shelf like you mentioned you don't have to worry about being vectored around. You're VFR. Period -

I was IFR the other day around Charlotte and we had bad turbulence and I asked to go higher - they said unable. I asked again a few minutes later- unable. I cancelled IFR and told them I was VFR climb 10500 - not much they could do - perfectly legal and fine.
 
Just use flight following or call up approach. St. Louis controllers are very accommodating. I flew into Creve Coeur about a year ago intending to fly under the Bravo, and St. Louis Approach just cleared me into the Bravo without asking. I was on flight following.
 
rolivi said:
I need to try out ATL and ORD.

I do the 2nd and 4th busiest BRAVO airports routinely. Doesn't seem like much of a thing to me.

And for the readers... I'm a 360hr PPL. Working on that IR.
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You are correct. It's no big deal if you are over the shelf. Non issue. I don't see the hypoxia issue at 10,500 either - I do 11 - 12K in every time I fly... but maybe that's just me.
 
EminiTrader said:
You are correct. It's no big deal if you are over the shelf. Non issue. I don't see the hypoxia issue at 10,500 either - I do 11 - 12K in every time I fly... but maybe that's just me.
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If I fly all day at those altitudes I feel it later, but I certainly don't have any aeromedical issues in flight.
 
EdFred said:
It's not fear, it's if they do talk to you around here (I'm looking at you ORD) expect them to tell you to go 70-90 miles out of your way. Chicago will almost never let you go over - and even more rare let you through the airspace VFR if transitioning. Detroit isn't as bad, but they usually say remain clear.

I got an ORD over flight once. I departed RFD at midnight local. At 3pm - ain't never gonna happen.
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In my experience, though Detroit will usually tell you to stay clear at first, if you specifically ask for a Bravo clearance, and ask early enough, they will usually give it to you.

When it's not too busy, sometimes they will clear you without asking.
 
azure said:
In my experience, though Detroit will usually tell you to stay clear at first, if you specifically ask for a Bravo clearance, and ask early enough, they will usually give it to you.

When it's not too busy, sometimes they will clear you without asking.
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I ran into a string of "remain clear" from them, so I just fly to TOL and then east. Then I don't need to worry about a flight plan if VFR.
 
Mike I said:
If you're overflying Class A (assuming you have an aircraft that can get to 60,000ft), yes, you'll need Mode C unless your aircraft was originally certificated without an electrical system.
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Doesn't the airspace above Alpha revert to class Echo again? Class Echo doesn't require a Mode C transponder, right? What am I missing?

(Not being a smart alec, as a low time pilot, your comment is different from my understanding and I genuinely would like to know -- not that I'll ever own a plane capable of overflying Alpha lol!)
 
ettsn said:
Doesn't the airspace above Alpha revert to class Echo again? Class Echo doesn't require a Mode C transponder, right? What am I missing?
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How are you going to get there?

ettsn said:
(Not being a smart alec, as a low time pilot, your comment is different from my understanding and I genuinely would like to know -- not that I'll ever own a plane capable of overflying Alpha lol!)
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I'm not even sure there is an airplane you can buy that has a maximum operating altitude over 60,000'. If there is, I'm sure people will chime in.
 
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ettsn said:
Doesn't the airspace above Alpha revert to class Echo again? Class Echo doesn't require a Mode C transponder, right? What am I missing?

(Not being a smart alec, as a low time pilot, your comment is different from my understanding and I genuinely would like to know -- not that I'll ever own a plane capable of overflying Alpha lol!)
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From FAR 91.215(b)(5):
(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies—

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface;
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Since there's no way one can be less than 2500ft AGL and above Class A airspace, the transponder is a must-use when above Class A (well, in the lower 48 states, at least)
 
steingar said:
If I fly all day at those altitudes I feel it later, but I certainly don't have any aeromedical issues in flight.
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Yaeh I'm not sure what plays into that. Any flight for me that is over 1 hour (most of my flights) I generally go above 10 - depending on winds, weather, etc.

In fairness seriously considering adding onboard oxygen as I'd like to go higher.

I was IFR near ATL and she told me she'd let me go right over at 16K.. Couldn't do that. Couldn't cancel as it was solid IMC - so had to go around :)
 
Mike I said:
Not just on while you're over the airspace, but any time you're within the 30nm Mode C Veil around Class B airspace.

If you're overflying Class A (assuming you have an aircraft that can get to 60,000ft), yes, you'll need Mode C unless your aircraft was originally certificated without an electrical system.
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Yes, it is needed within the Mode C veil. Actually come to think of it, you need Mode C above 10,000 feet MSL anyway (except within 2,500 feet AGL). So I guess that would cover the Class A overflight scenario.
 
You get a great view of ORD and MDW operations when overlying that class B. ATC wasn't giving VFR flight following to anyone below the bravo, but as soon as they confirmed that I was overflying the bravo they were all of a sudden willing to talk!

The folks at Chicago just requested that I notify them of any course and altitude changes, and preferred I not change anything until I passed through.

It really felt like they weren't used to VFR traffic going 145 knots above 10k.
 
midlifeflyer said:
In his scenario he is out of the class B. He's above it.

In terms of above with flight following, I would expect to get a periodic vector for traffic if my route crosses IFR arrival or departure paths.

Those same paths, at a higher traffic density, typically make the difference between hearing "cleared into Class B" and "remain clear of Class B".

I guess it goes without saying (or should) that different Class Bs will have marginally different procedures and even individual controllers may vary on how much the like extra workload.
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I don't like climbing to nose-bleed altitudes unless I've got a good reason, like a nice fat tailwind, or terrain.

Flying over the class B isn't that big a deal. But, keep in mind, ATC still uses that thinner air up there. Take a look at the VFR flyway chart and check out the altitudes posted on the various arrival and departure corridors. Also, check out the gaggle of DPs and STARS listed for that class B.
 
rolivi said:
On a more general view:

What's with the fear of Bravo?
I see many posts about going over, under, or around it. What stops people from going THROUGH it? Maybe I've done too much flying in the Los Angeles basin and Dallas / Fort Worth metroplex. I tell them where I want to go and they route me through.

If you can articulate your question on this forum, you can key the mike and make the request to a controller.
Click to expand...

I think it really depends on what Bravo you are in. Im based inside the BOS bravo, and I have never been cleared through any of the bravo VFR. Honestly even on an IFR flight plan most of the time they just vector you around the Bravo.


On the other hand the NYC bravo is the total opposite. They have given me clearance through the bravo VFR all the time- sometimes without even asking!

To answer the OP question: like other have said flying over the bravo is a total non event- especially when getting FF
 
steingar said:
If I fly all day at those altitudes I feel it later, but I certainly don't have any aeromedical issues in flight.
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How would you know?

Hypoxia doesn't feel bad. It actually can feel pretty good -- one common symptom is euphoria. You just don't work as well, though you think you do.

It's most apparent with night vision, at MUCH lower altitudes.

Getting independent observations and especially objective tests may surprise you.

If you feel it later, you do have aeromedical issues at those altitudes.
 
neilw2 said:
I think it really depends on what Bravo you are in. Im based inside the BOS bravo, and I have never been cleared through any of the bravo VFR. Honestly even on an IFR flight plan most of the time they just vector you around the Bravo.
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Now this I can work with... if it's a question of how are the controllers at KSTL I'd read it differently and offer that they are angels to work with.

In my experience KDFW, KPHX, KLOS, and KSTL are easy Bravos.

KLAS seems to be a headache.

YMMV.
 
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