Another wide vs close pattern question

[Palmpilot]

But it doesn’t say “outside the pattern”, which, being in quotes I would assume came verbatim from somewhere.

I could be mistaken about what BradW was referring to.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I could be mistaken about what BradW was referring to.

Well, as I told a former General Manager, “You know what happens when you assume…you look like a ****ing idiot.”

maybe I shouldn’t assume.

 

[Brad W]

I was using quotes.... meaning air quotes I suppose.... in a casual conversational way. Not in an English class kind of way. Knowing that outside is a very subjective and fuzzy concept that a lot of folks here seem to have very strong and very different definitions. Not quoting any specified source.

 

[Palmpilot]

I was using quotes.... meaning air quotes I suppose.... in a casual conversational way. Not in an English class kind of way. Knowing that outside is a very subjective and fuzzy concept that a lot of folks here seem to have very strong and very different definitions. Not quoting any specified source.

Could you say a little more about why you asked the question, and to what uses the answer could be put?

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you fly 2 miles beyond the runway BEFORE you begin your descent to pattern altitude, then make that big turn to intercept the 45, in most typical light GA airplanes, you'll be at least 2.5 -3 miles away from the runway by the time you intercept the proper 45 entry and roll wings level. If there's somebody at pattern altitude that claims to be on downwind that far out, they seriously need to reconsider flying as a desirable activity.

And if you fly two miles beyond the traffic pattern, as the recommendation states, you’ll be even further away from the runway.

 

[Kritchlow]

I do standard rate turns in the pattern. I am simply responding to the sorts of accidents I see. I also fly a faster, more complex aircraft, and might do things differently were I in a Skyhawk. You do you, I'll do me. No need for snark.

Until you goober up the pattern for everyone else.

 

[wilkersk]

Here's what I've found:

If you fly a typical light GA single engine aircraft (C-172, PA28-140, etc...) with average skill, and turn cross wind when you are not less than 300' agl below the published pattern altitude, turn downwind once you reach pattern altitude, reduced power and trim for published approach speed abeam the downwind numbers, then turn base when the approach end of the runway is at about your 7:30 position, then initiate your turn to final so as to roll out on final course and glide slope, it looks something like the image below. This image is from Foreflight. If you use Foreflight, you can add the entry and pattern to your flight plan and it will show you about where you should be based on your aircraft's performance profile that you have selected in Foreflight.

According to Google, the downwind depicted in the pic above is slightly more than 3/4 of a mile from the runway for a generic profile Cessna 172N. At pattern altitude, that puts the runway about 3/4 of the way up the wing strut on that C-172.

 

[dtuuri]

Here's what I've found:
<snip>

Something doesn't look right. Where's the straight descending segment (after the 2-mile point) before beginning the right turn and why is that turn radius so wide compared to instant changes in heading onto and off the base leg?

 

[Brad W]

Could you say a little more about why you asked the question, and to what uses the answer could be put?

sure.... the question starting this thread.... really just curious what other pilots thought and did.

Personally I was taught to keep it tight...from my 1st discovery flight I was taught that it's good safe practice to keep it tight whenever possible...safety and all of that.

and when I get into those situations where I approach a busy pattern where the pilots are flying crazy wide patterns I've felt a bit pushed into doing something that is a bit risky.
Ditto when flying at a towered field and I'm asked to extend my base turn...and they keep me going out well past what I was taught to be a normal pattern dimension.
It makes me a touch nervous and therefore more awake....and to be honest I get a little miffed being pushed into a bad situation by somebody else's bad decision.

So I was just curious about the thought process from other similarly trained pilots.

and to what uses the answer can be used?....well satisfy curiosity + perhaps learn a little something I guess...

 

[SkyChaser]

I was taught tight patterns as well. They came in handy when I was trying to perfect landings, as I could land a lot more times in an hour.

When I end up having to make a wider or larger pattern due to other people or tower instructions, I try not to slow down as much or lose as much altitude before final, just to provide a little bit of margin in case something did go wrong. I already prefer to come in high on the base-to-final turn, and then pull the power and slip if necessary to get down, so it's not much of a change, it just takes longer to fly the pattern.

 

[ateamer]

I was taught to keep the runway halfway up the strut on a 172 on downwind. In the RV-8 I keep the wingtip just brushing the runway.

I know we were all told to fly a tight pattern so we can make the runway if the engine fails, but I contend that while it’s the best practice, the reasoning is faulty. At the planned of a flight is the least likely time for a failure. A better explanation would be that if you lose the engine, being skilled at flying a precise, tight pattern increases your chances of making an off-field landing where you planned it because you’re used to flying the pattern inside glide range.

 

[Dana]

A better explanation would be that if you lose the engine, being skilled at flying a precise, tight pattern increases your chances of making an off-field landing where you planned it because you’re used to flying the pattern inside glide range.

An engine quilting on final with the throttle closed isn't unheard of, though, it's happened to me.

 

[Brad W]

I don't look at it as the least likely time
and any moment in the entire flight isn't there a chance that the engine will keep running and a chance that it will quit?

Instead, I look at it as a time when I'm lower and have fewer options IF it quits.

Enroute, my glide ring is larger because I'm higher so odds are there are more potential spots to land. If there are not any spots such as flying over water or over the Great Dismal Swamp, I'm thinking about maybe going even a bit higher.
No different than if anywhere along a route I decide to descend to have a better look at something on the ground, or to do ground reference maneuvers, etc.... I'm more likely to do so while staying closer to a potential landing spot.

 

[Palmpilot]

The fact that you are closer to the ground than typical cruising altitudes sounds like a reasonable concern. I think people sometimes overestimate that risk in comparison to certain other risks, however. For example, the pattern is also a high traffic area, so I think it is justifiable to fly beyond gliding distance of the runway when it's necessary to mitigate collision risks.

 

[dbahn]

so then, can we officially consider 2 miles beyond downwind to be "outside the pattern"?

"The pattern" is a dynamic concept so there can't be an "official" consideration. The pattern is often changing dimensions to accommodate faster aircraft and in some cases to handle slower aircraft efficiently. It has to handle other issues, too, such as when someone extends downwind but continues the approach to land. Assuming that they are following an aircraft on final, that's where the pattern is at that moment.

If you define the pattern as having fixed dimensions, then you need a whole additional set of rules and recommendations to address what action should be taken when you fly outside of those dimensions. No thanks for an effort going down that path. There's enough misunderstanding as is.

 

[dbahn]

I don't look at it as the least likely time
and any moment in the entire flight isn't there a chance that the engine will keep running and a chance that it will quit?

Instead, I look at it as a time when I'm lower and have fewer options IF it quits.

If you don't like the option of extending your downwind or any other leg, you DO have the option of simply exiting and re-entering the pattern at pattern altitude or even higher and staying within gliding distance of a runway.

But I don't think many pilots would actually do that, as evidence by the fact most pilots are used to being vectored into the tulies by the tower at towered airports and rarely use the "unable" option to exercise alternatives.

 

[FastEddieB]

For example, the pattern is also a high traffic area, so I think it is justifiable to fly beyond gliding distance of the runway when it's necessary to mitigate collision risks.

Of course. I think the idea is to adjust speed and maneuver so as to remain as much within gliding distance of the runway as practicable. Even if you can’t make the runway, just making to the airport environs will often provide pretty hospitable open spaces to put down on.

What I sometimes see is a pilot being dragged way wide and yet still descending on cue, often passing through 500’ while still miles from the runway. That’s what one should avoid, as you say to mitigate risk if something were to go wrong.

 

[dbahn]

I do standard rate turns in the pattern. I am simply responding to the sorts of accidents I see. I also fly a faster, more complex aircraft, and might do things differently were I in a Skyhawk. You do you, I'll do me. No need for snark.

I'm going to need to adjust my attitude now that gliding season has ended at our operation. I'm so used to making a tight pattern with steep turns (in the tow plane), sometimes 60 degree bank or more, that it feels weird making shallow turns.

 

[Palmpilot]

Of course. I think the idea is to adjust speed and maneuver so as to remain as much within gliding distance of the runway as practicable. Even if you can’t make the runway, just making to the airport environs will often provide pretty hospitable open spaces to put down on.

What I sometimes see is a pilot being dragged way wide and yet still descending on cue, often passing through 500’ while still miles from the runway. That’s what one should avoid, as you say to mitigate risk if something were to go wrong.

"Dragging it in" has always been considered poor form by the instructors I've flown with. And in an urban area, it's not nice for the neighbors.

 

[steingar]

Until you goober up the pattern for everyone else.

The only way that'll happen is if the others are crap pilots.

 

[Dana]

 

[bflynn]

See, threads like this is why pilots just fly straight in.

 

[Larry in TN]

I flew a 40nm Final, earlier today.

 

[FrankBravo]

Fly as tight as you and your planes ability and pax comfort allow


As far as others, if you don’t feel safe exit the area or stay on the ground

 

[DaleB]

Saw a guy a few months back, and I swear I’m not exaggerating this, fly his downwind leg at least two, maybe three miles out. I seriously did think he was going XC but kept an eye on him. We have lots of student pilots and a nearby Air Force base, and I swear some of the students must think they’re flying bombers or something. I was on downwind and just about to turn base when this guy in a 172 calls his base turn. Screw it, I figured… I announced I was making a 360 to make room for him. Then I watched him drag that thing in the last few miles at 500 AGL. I’m not the world’s greatest pilot, but it left me shaking my head in disbelief.

And yes, I tend to fly a fairly close pattern but readily adapt if there’s someone in front of me. I don’t mind exceeding 30 degrees if the situation calls for it. That’s what rudder pedals and the stick are for.

 

[Brad W]

reminds me of the time...I think it was Langley AF base that was repaving their runway, or some such thing, and the base's aero club relocated temporarily to our little 3,000 ft long uncontrolled field.

 

[ateamer]

Something I’ve noticed lately is pilots in 172s and Cherokees calling “short final” when they’re half a mile, or even more than a mile, out. They’re often a good 30 seconds from touchdown when they’re calling short final. Maybe a “normal” pattern to them starts a couple counties away?

 

[Bob Noel]

Is “short final” a distance or time?

 

[ateamer]

Is “short final” a distance or time?

To me, it’s time. I pretty much don’t use the phrase “short final” but the occasions that I do, it’s 10 seconds or less to touchdown. I aim to have final be around 15 seconds, roughly a quarter mile for my plane (RV-8A, flying final at 62 knots).