Another “How do I log this time” thread

[flyingpreacher]

So for reference, I’m an instrument rated ASEL pilot with High Performance and complex endorsements.

Tonight I had the awesome privilege of my first flight in a Cirrus SR22T. Super cool and I loved every second. I was “along for the ride” with a fellow pilot, but he let me be “sole manipulator of the controls” for a while, even in IMC. So I know what amount I can log for PIC (the amount of time I was sole manipulator) and the amount I can log for IMC. My question is, what do I put down for the flight time? The total duration of the flight or just the portion I flew?

On the one hand it doesn’t seem that I COULD log the whole flight since he (or the AP) flew most of the way.

On the other hand, it seems weird to have a flight that is only logged as being 0.2hrs total time. I know that for the rest of the flight I was what @Brad Z called in another thread a “pilot rated passenger.”

I don’t have aspirations of flying for the airlines, but I am working toward commercial/CFI/CFI-I, so I don’t want to be inaccurate with my logbook.

 

[Brad Z]

So for reference, I’m an instrument rated ASEL pilot with High Performance and complex endorsements.

Tonight I had the awesome privilege of my first flight in a Cirrus SR22T. Super cool and I loved every second. I was “along for the ride” with a fellow pilot, but he let me be “sole manipulator of the controls” for a while, even in IMC. So I know what amount I can log for PIC (the amount of time I was sole manipulator) and the amount I can log for IMC. My question is, what do I put down for the flight time? The total duration of the flight or just the portion I flew?

On the one hand it doesn’t seem that I COULD log the whole flight since he (or the AP) flew most of the way.

On the other hand, it seems weird to have a flight that is only logged as being 0.2hrs total time. I know that for the rest of the flight I was what @Brad Z called in another thread a “pilot rated passenger.”

I don’t have aspirations of flying for the airlines, but I am working toward commercial/CFI/CFI-I, so I don’t want to be inaccurate with my logbook.

Per 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i), you can log just the portion of the flight time you were the sole manipulator of the controls. Nothing wrong with logging .2 flight hours with no take offs of landings. As far as autopilot, it comes down to whoever is responsible for manipulating the buttons on the autopilot.

 

[RussR]

I have several 0.1 flights in my logbook, and even a couple of 0.0's. Jeppesen/ASA/etc may call the column "total time of flight" or whatever they want, but there is no provision in the FARs for logging time where you were NOT acting as a pilot or authorized crew member in some capacity. "Riding along as a passenger" is not a flight time category.

 

[EdFred]

What's the story of 0.0 flight time?

 

[Brad W]

I get it....but I've thought this is maybe a bit of a flaw in the system....
rarely is a "pilot-rated-passenger" not at least engaged in the flight. Paying attention at least, maybe working radios, navigating, spotting traffic, backing up the pilot.... and at the same time gaining experience and learning.

 

[EdFred]

I get it....but I've thought this is maybe a bit of a flaw in the system....
rarely is a "pilot-rated-passenger" not at least engaged in the flight. Paying attention at least, maybe working radios, navigating, spotting traffic, backing up the pilot.... and at the same time gaining experience and learning.

I can also learn math, physics, engineering on my own, but it doesn't mean I get college credit for them either.

 

[eman1200]

I get it....but I've thought this is maybe a bit of a flaw in the system....
rarely is a "pilot-rated-passenger" not at least engaged in the flight. Paying attention at least, maybe working radios, navigating, spotting traffic, backing up the pilot.... and at the same time gaining experience and learning.

log 'sole manipulator of the radio' time

 

[asicer]

Per 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i), you can log just the portion of the flight time you were the sole manipulator of the controls. Nothing wrong with logging .2 flight hours with no take offs of landings. As far as autopilot, it comes down to whoever is responsible for manipulating the buttons on the autopilot.

Two instrument rated pilots, both current and proficient, decide to fly together in a glass cockpit 172. Before the flight, they determine that Alice will be PIC and she flies the takeoff. At the departure end of the runway, Alice gives the controls to Bob whereupon he dials 8000 on the altitude bug, pitches for 85 and presses the FLC button. After 4 hours on autopilot, Bob presses the VPTH and APR buttons so that it can capture the glide path. At DA, they see red terminating lights but nothing else so they continue descending. At 50 feet they spot the runway numbers so Alice disengages the autopilot and lands the plane.

Who logs what and how much?

 

[Brad W]

I can also learn math, physics, engineering on my own, but it doesn't mean I get college credit for them either.

well yeah...sure...but it'll make getting a degree a lot easier!
but I guess that points to part of the shortcoming with the logbook concept..... it's not ALL just about getting "credit"

 

[Brad W]

ok, so you're a 300 hour single engine PPL, no plans to fly for a living (although that has no bearing on the scenario). A friend is an airline instructor pilot (not a CFI) and gets an opportunity to give you 1.5 hours in the Airline's Level D Boeing 777 simulator. Do you log it?

 

[EdFred]

Two instrument rated pilots, both current and proficient, decide to fly together in a glass cockpit 172. Before the flight, they determine that Alice will be PIC and she flies the takeoff. At the departure end of the runway, Alice gives the controls to Bob whereupon he dials 8000 on the altitude bug, pitches for 85 and presses the FLC button. After 4 hours on autopilot, Bob presses the VPTH and APR buttons so that it can capture the glide path. At DA, they see red terminating lights but nothing else so they continue descending. At 50 feet they spot the runway numbers so Alice disengages the autopilot and lands the plane.

Who logs what and how much?

One of them should log a violation for coming down to 50' before breaking out.

 

[Brad W]

I thought of another example that kinda sorta relates to my thinking here.
I used to be an avid SCUBA diver. I have in my SCUBA logbook I think two snorkel only dives that were downright awesome. One was I think something like over two hours long. Those two extra dives in my total dive count don't make a hill a beans worth of a difference to anything...and whenever or if ever I went for additional certifications that required a minimum total dive count, I had well over the required number taking away those two.... and besides...it was in water experience just the same as any 20 minute shallow dive on SCUBA

 

[PaulS]

I've never even thought to log time when someone hands me the controls. Not sure that will change honestly.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I've never even thought to log time when someone hands me the controls. Not sure that will change honestly.

I did. 0.2 in a Twin Beech. No landings, though.

 

[RussR]

I thought of another example that kinda sorta relates to my thinking here.
I used to be an avid SCUBA diver. I have in my SCUBA logbook I think two snorkel only dives that were downright awesome. One was I think something like over two hours long. Those two extra dives in my total dive count don't make a hill a beans worth of a difference to anything...and whenever or if ever I went for additional certifications that required a minimum total dive count, I had well over the required number taking away those two.... and besides...it was in water experience just the same as any 20 minute shallow dive on SCUBA

Just because it was awesome doesn't make it loggable. I went and swam in the neighborhood pool for a couple of hours. I held my breath a few times and went to the bottom of the deep end. Should I log it as a dive? What's the difference? It may be good training and exercise, but that doesn't mean it should be in my log. Put in it your diary or journal if you like.

 

[RussR]

What's the story of 0.0 flight time?

Nothing cosmic. I remember the one was a flight with a friend in Hawaii in a 172. We were coming into Lanai, and I thought it would be cool to have a landing in Lanai in my logbook. So I took over on short final and landed. Total time at the controls was less than a minute. That didn't warrant "rounding up" to 0.1 to me. Besides, it stands out more as a 0.0 and raises eyebrows, and that appeals to me.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have several 0.1 flights in my logbook, and even a couple of 0.0's. Jeppesen/ASA/etc may call the column "total time of flight" or whatever they want, but there is no provision in the FARs for logging time where you were NOT acting as a pilot or authorized crew member in some capacity. "Rising along as a passenger" is not a flight time category.

There was actually some nebulous category of other flight time that was mentioned in a very old Chief Counsel letter (with no examples). But literally everything other than since the tells us that loggable "flight time" is limited to meeting one of the 61.51 boxes. If you fit into one of the categories of the Universal Ruyle of Logging Flight Time, you have loggable flight time. And if you don't, you don't.

To clarify, I am using "loggable" in the regulatory sense of something countable toward FAA certificates, ratings, privileges and other qualifications. Sure, if you want to use your logbook as a scrapbook of fun experiences, go ahead, but to avoid any hint of a problem, don't include it in any regulatory column.

 

[Salty]

Just because it was awesome doesn't make it loggable. I went and swam in the neighborhood pool for a couple of hours. I held my breath a few times and went to the bottom of the deep end. Should I log it as a dive? What's the difference? It may be good training and exercise, but that doesn't mean it should be in my log. Put in it your diary or journal if you like.

A dive log has even less legal meaning than a pilots log. Faking a dive log is trivial and also pointless. It’s for your purpose even more than a pilot log, therefore log based on any damn criteria you want. If you want to log bathtub time with a rubber ducky, go for it.
It’s easy enough to filter that type of dive out for the one or maybe two times in your life someone else looks at your logbook - more likely nobody but you will ever care. At most I’ve only ever been asked what certs I hold and when /where was my last dive. And I could have made up anything I wanted.

A dive log is only a journal / diary.

 

[asicer]

One of them should log a violation for coming down to 50' before breaking out.

The TDZE is 50' below sea level.

(I've never even come close to exercising that rule. Hopefully I'll get it right if the occasion ever arises, which I doubt will ever happen.)

 

[Brad W]

as is a flight log. the only difference being a legal portion (governmental) of it vs standardization (industrial)

there is no requirement to log any flight...unless you want to use it towards some future requirement or to prove currency. In which case you record it somewhere and somehow.
and so it seems to me there's not reason you can't log every single flight if that's what you want to do
Where does it say you can't or shouldn't have interspersed in the log book things like memories, stories, zero hour flights, flights that don't count for anything, flights in things you are not rated for and never plan to be, every trip you've made to airventure, or whatever.... You just need to be able to parse out number of takeoffs and landing in the last 90 days, total PIC time for future ratings or for the insurance man, etc....
so yeah....pretty much exactly like a dive log book

and yeah, if a person were to mess up and write on their application for say for example a future commercial rating that they had 0.8 hour more total time (not PIC) than they really do, because they counted the entire 1.0 flight in their friend's Cirrus rather than the 0.2 that they can count...then yeah problem..... especially if they are right on the edge of the requirement

 

[midlifeflyer]

as is a flight log. the only difference being a legal portion (governmental) of it vs standardization (industrial)

there is no requirement to log any flight...unless you want to use it towards some future requirement or to prove currency. In which case you record it somewhere and somehow.
and so it seems to me there's not reason you can't log every single flight if that's what you want to do
Where does it say you can't or shouldn't have interspersed in the log book things like memories, stories, zero hour flights, flights that don't count for anything, flights in things you are not rated for and never plan to be, every trip you've made to airventure, or whatever.... You just need to be able to parse out number of takeoffs and landing in the last 90 days, total PIC time for future ratings or for the insurance man, etc....
so yeah....pretty much exactly like a dive log book

I'm going to disagree. Your dive log (and mine) has zero regulatory relevance. Your pilot logbook has a lot.

There's no legal problem using your pilot logbook as a scrapbook or diary, so long as no one, especially the FAA when they are investigating you for a claimed pilot deviation (y'know, when you have limited credibility and they are not happy with you) can look at it and know without any explanation from you, what counts as regulatory flight time and what doesn't. Otherwise, the FAA would be well within its rights to claim logbook falsification, the standard penalty for which is revocation of all certificates and ratings. Even without that, there's an perhaps undeserved aura of lack of seriousness and professionalism that I doubt will help in terms of how the FAA would handle the deviation.

(I actually know a guy who was denied admission to a flying club because he treated his logbook as a scrapbook. Silly, I know, but that's the way it goes.)

If you think the risk of logging PIC in a an Airbus for sitting in seat 23E is ok, by all means, go ahead. Or keep the fun stuff for the comments and leave the flight time entries for regulatory flight time, and buy a journal at Walmart for your memories.

 

[Pinecone]

One of them should log a violation for coming down to 50' before breaking out.

He said they say the REIL so continued. So legal.