Am I allowed to sign off on my own work?

azblackbird

azblackbird

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azblackbird
To all the A&Ps here...

Let's say I complete my A&P schooling and get my certs. As a freshly minted student, would I be allowed to immediately sign off on my own work, or would I be required to do an "apprenticeship" program with an established shop to build time/experience before being allowed to do so?

Haven't done any research on the matter yet, so I'm just throwing it out there... ;)
 
This is something that you will learn in A&P school.

From 14 CFR:
§65.81 General privileges and limitations.
(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.
 
That is the rule, and it is probably violated frequently with no recourse unless that mechanic's work is deemed to have contributed to an incident or accident. The airlines I've worked at have had mechanic's orientation and on job training procedures to cover most aspects of maintaining a particular airframe in order to satisfy the regulation.
 
DutchRoller said:
This is something that you will learn in A&P school.

From 14 CFR:
§65.81 General privileges and limitations.
(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.
Click to expand...

Here's the way I read it, so let's use this scenario and let me hear your opinion...

I buy a run out T210 Cessna for pennies on the dollar. The panel is outdated, paint is outdated, the interior is worn/outdated, engine needs an overhaul, etc, etc. However the airframe has zero damage history and zero signs of any corrosion.

Obviously I will pull and read every manual, spec sheet, AD, STC, etc. etc. for that specific aircraft before I even think about taking anything apart.

So let's say I rebuild the engine to manufacturer specs with some Victor magic thrown in the mix. I pull the interior and have that professionally re-done. I cut a panel and install updated avionics, I strip and re-paint the exterior. I remove, clean/repair/replace and spec out all wearable components. Basically I turn it into a brand new plane.

Now my understanding of the rule of that particular FAR... is that I would be allowed (as a new A&P) to do everything proposed as long as I had an "understanding" of the manuals, had periodic FAA inspections (since having no prior experience with type) and could show I was knowledgeable and could demonstrate the ability for the work required.

Is that a fair assumption? :dunno:
 
A&P scool is a minimum of hours to complete, last I heard was 2000 or so. The schools run the program over 20 months, full-time. How are you going to fit in full time A&P school, working on your pilots license and run your company at the same time?
 
Look into experimentals. They can be built and maintained by anyone. Annual has to be signed off by an AP or IA.
 
Jeeze, I thought the POA crew was being unnecessarily harsh on this guy, but it seems that the collective had him pegged earlier than I did.

I mean, if someone has such a successful company that they can fund flying around for it then where do you have the time to become a A&P while simultaneously training for your PPL?
 
murphey said:
A&P scool is a minimum of hours to complete, last I heard was 2000 or so. The schools run the program over 20 months, full-time. How are you going to fit in full time A&P school, working on your pilots license and run your company at the same time?
Click to expand...
Current company runs itself. The new start-up I'll be launching is designed to allow me to fly as much as possible, with the least amount of actual work possible. It's all about automation. It's not like I'm going to do all this in one year. I figured I would fly for awhile, and then entertain the thought of going to an A&P school down the road just to say I've done it. Plus I think it would be cool to eventually have a project plane to work on. ;)
 
The Carbon Cub is a cool airplane, but because it is a light sport (and can be flown without a medical), it is flimsy and doesnt have much range and is really a one person airplane (except for short trips or superlight people). They do land supershort! The Xcub or the Top Cub can be flown anywhere on the planet, carry a heavy load and are much sturdier. Xcub is faster and is a better long range performer. Top Cub is a traditional Super Cub, pretty much through and through. Also they are fabric and can be built by one person. The riveting of RV's is two person job. The RV's are good experimentals also. Consider a Husky.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
You also wont be able to do annual inspections without an IA certificate.
Click to expand...
Thus the question of whether I need an "apprenticeship" under a rated shop. Apparently I can do (as a new A&P) a lot of the work on my own in re-furbing a plane and be legal under the guise of periodic FAA inspections. But for actual annuals, I would need to get a cert and do the time.
 
azblackbird said:
Here's the way I read it, so let's use this scenario and let me hear your opinion...

I buy a run out T210 Cessna for pennies on the dollar. The panel is outdated, paint is outdated, the interior is worn/outdated, engine needs an overhaul, etc, etc. However the airframe has zero damage history and zero signs of any corrosion.

Obviously I will pull and read every manual, spec sheet, AD, STC, etc. etc. for that specific aircraft before I even think about taking anything apart.

So let's say I rebuild the engine to manufacturer specs with some Victor magic thrown in the mix. I pull the interior and have that professionally re-done. I cut a panel and install updated avionics, I strip and re-paint the exterior. I remove, clean/repair/replace and spec out all wearable components. Basically I turn it into a brand new plane.

Now my understanding of the rule of that particular FAR... is that I would be allowed (as a new A&P) to do everything proposed as long as I had an "understanding" of the manuals, had periodic FAA inspections (since having no prior experience with type) and could show I was knowledgeable and could demonstrate the ability for the work required.

Is that a fair assumption? :dunno:
Click to expand...

The FAA is unlikely to spend their time being your supervisor and/or QC. They will probably tell you to find a qualified mechanic to work under.
 
coloradobluesky said:
The Carbon Cub is a cool airplane, but because it is a light sport (and can be flown without a medical), it is flimsy and doesnt have much range and is really a one person airplane (except for short trips or superlight people). The Xcub or the Top Cub can be flown anywhere on the planet, carry a heavy load and are much sturdier. Xcub is faster and is a better long range performer. Top Cub is a traditional Super Cub, pretty much through and through. Also they are fabric and can be built by one person. The riveting of RV's is two person job. The RV's are good experimentals also.
Click to expand...
I'd be going with the FX, mostly just to play around here in the AZ backcountry. I like prospecting for gold, so that type of plane would be perfect for finding new ground.
 
DutchRoller said:
The FAA is unlikely to spend their time being your supervisor and/or QC. They will probably tell you to find a qualified mechanic to work under.
Click to expand...
What do they do for the home-builds? Do they have FAA designated A&Ps that can conduct those type of inspections? Or can any AI sign-off on a home-build?
 
azblackbird said:
On the bucket list is a CarbonCub. I like their "builder-assist" program. Would make for a great learning experience.
Click to expand...
Why go the school route? Get ahold of the latest edition of Kitplanes. The editor just got his A&P after a goodly number of years building experimental aircraft. He tells you pretty much how to do it. Here is the deal. You need X hours of working on airframes and engines. I misremember the exact number of hours, but I'll bet somebody on here can tell you (whether or not they actually know). The scam is that most of us that got our tickets working for large companies/airlines did NOT spend 100% of those hours with wrenches in our hands (or wenches, either). Part of the experience is being able to understand maintenance manuals and other time consuming non-mechanical times. As a matter of fact, you could PROBABLY sneak in a few hours of time on this group because you are educating yourself on aircraft. Let your conscience be your guide. But get a good supply of pens and a lot of ink refills because the FAA wants to see full documentation on exactly what you are basing your experience on. I'd call this one "online research" and let them ask what that means. You can't believe that an FAA inspector is going to go through several hundred sheets of paper (large type in Excel is your friend) just to pick the flyspecks out of the pepper. Ain't gonna happen.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Not quite. They don't have "annuals", they have "condition inspections". They can be done by an A&P, no IA required.

Jim
Click to expand...

Or by the holder of the repairman's certificate for that airframe.
 
weirdjim said:
Why go the school route? Get ahold of the latest edition of Kitplanes. The editor just got his A&P after a goodly number of years building experimental aircraft. He tells you pretty much how to do it. Here is the deal. You need X hours of working on airframes and engines. I misremember the exact number of hours, but I'll bet somebody on here can tell you (whether or not they actually know).
Click to expand...
Here's the program I'd be taking. The school is just down the street from me. It's $15k which would be about the price of a minimal engine overhaul. I'd be doing night classes for about a 2 year period. I've never been to school, so maybe it's about time. Too bad they didn't have an A&P program (I took auto mechanics and auto body) when I was in high school as it would be free. :(
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Ah....yup.
Click to expand...


Hmmm ok-- that's a new one to me. Never heard of anyone other than an A&P or repairman's certificate holder being authorized to sign off on the condition inspection but I'll be the first to admit my knowledge of the regs isn't perfect.
 
maybe even a DAR could do the deed.....that's another kind of designee;)
 
Good luck

Iirc the A&P requires three years experience or a certificated school.

Inspection Authorization requires three consecutive years "actively engaged in maintaining aircraft". Then yearly minimums to maintain it, which are pretty easy.

Major alterations and major repairs require an IA to return to service.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
maybe even a DAR could do the deed.....that's another kind of designee;)
Click to expand...

Well my OPLIMS, which are right out of 8130, state: "An experimental aircraft builder certificated as a repairman for this aircraft under
14 CFR § 65.104 or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated mechanic may perform the condition inspection required by these operating limitations." Don't see the words "Designee" or "FAA Administrator" anywhere. Do you have a reference for anyone other than A&P or repairman being granted authorization?
 
bnt83 said:
Iirc the A&P requires three years experience or a certificated school.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that I could actually go to work for an A&P shop for three years, then take the tests and get my certs... rather than going to school? That sounds like a cool alternative also.
 
...he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date.
Click to expand...

So what happens in the case of a brand new unique aircraft or component that no mechanic has ever worked on before? How then could an A&P ever legally sign off the condition inspection of a one of a kind homebuilt?
 
I'm in shock azbb is asking here. Shouldn't his capable aviation lawyer already have provided him the only answer he is capable of representing as truth?


And on another thought... where is @Tom-D when we need him?
 
Dana said:
So what happens in the case of a brand new unique aircraft or component that no mechanic has ever worked on before? How then could an A&P ever legally sign off the condition inspection of a one of a kind homebuilt?
Click to expand...

Because unlike an annual all you are saying signing off the condition inspection is the aircraft is in a safe condition for operation and not that its airworthy and conforms to a type certificate.
 
tsts4 said:
Well my OPLIMS, which are right out of 8130, state: "An experimental aircraft builder certificated as a repairman for this aircraft under
14 CFR § 65.104 or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated mechanic may perform the condition inspection required by these operating limitations." Don't see the words "Designee" or "FAA Administrator" anywhere. Do you have a reference for anyone other than A&P or repairman being granted authorization?
Click to expand...
They way I understand it, if you build your own (experimental) aircraft, once it passes inspection, you can do your own maintenance, alterations, inspections, etc, under your own builder certificate.
 
azblackbird said:
They way I understand it, if you build your own (experimental) aircraft, once it passes inspection, you can do your own maintenance, alterations, inspections, etc, under your own builder certificate.
Click to expand...

Not quite. Anyone, not just the builder, and I mean anyone (your neighbor's teenage kid) regardless of experience can perform any maintenance on an E-AB with no supervision or signoff. Only the condition inspection requires credentials (such as an A&P or repairman's certificate for that airframe). Also the builder has to apply at their local FSDO in person for the repairman's certificate. It's not part of the E-AB AWC process nor is it automatic.
 
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azblackbird said:
They way I understand it, if you build your own (experimental) aircraft, once it passes inspection, you can do your own maintenance, alterations, inspections, etc, under your own builder certificate.
Click to expand...

That's actually correct information... but only for that exact airframe.

Without the repairman's cert for that exact airframe you can do everything EXCEPT the (annual) condition inspection.
 
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