Altitude Error in Bravo - ASRS?

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Oops! Recently while in Bravo over LAX VFR on the Coastal Route, VFR, I thought the controller cleared me to 5,000 feet so I descended. A few minutes later, he admonished me for descending below my 5,500 clearance.

Question: Should I ASRS this?

Lesson Learned: I was battling a 25 knot crosswind, trying to stay on the radial, and I may have been distracted. Take away is to focus even more on altitudes. Still, I could swear he said 5,000. Before doing anyting, I will listen if I can find the recording on LiveATC.

If I made a mistake, shoull I file ASRS? (The controller didn't seem that concerned, and he handed me off to next controller.)
 
Odds are, it's nothing if you didn't get a phone number to call.

The ASRS doesn't hurt. Whether you were right or wrong.

I have had controllers clear me for a VFR descent inside the B off the coastal route before. I don't think there is much going on below there off the runway centerlines.
 
I'm with MAKG -- you can never go wrong by filing the ASRS report, and it could save you a certificate action. Since you must report within 10 days of the event to get that "waiver of sanction", do it right away.
 
I am a big fan of ASRS/ASAP reports.
If you have to ask the question "should I file", the answer is yes.
It's free insurance.
 
nddons said:
Do you recall reading back your clearance as 5,000 ft or 5,500 ft?
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NDDONS - I always read back altitudes. I remember reading back my altitude and could swear it was 5,000, but this could be my mistake. I even entered into the autopilot as 5,000, which I always do even if I'm not on Autopilot (just another way to make sure I remember).

That's why I'm going to search the audio archives. My guess is it's my mistake though. I was very distracted by the howling winds pushing me off the VOR radial. At one point, I was crabbed 25 degrees.
 
That sounds like a good report either way. If you mis-heard and entered incorrectly due to expectations, that's a good lesson. If, instead, the controller made the mistake also due to expectations or something else, or there was a miscommunication somewhere on both sides, also good data for the reports.
 
rbridges said:
so, how does that help with educating the controllers? are blanket memos sent out when common problems are noted?
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The ASRS system collects reports from pilots, controllers and others in order to identify trends and areas where there may be safety issues. NASA publishes periodic reports and alerts. People doing controller training are as likely to search the database as are pilots, instructors, manufacturers, or anyone else.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The ASRS system collects reports from pilots, controllers and others in order to identify trends and areas where there may be safety issues. NASA publishes periodic reports and alerts. People doing controller training are as likely to search the database as are pilots, instructors, manufacturers, or anyone else.
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ASRS only gets reports from ATSAP that the submitter has allowed to be shared, it doesn't get all of the data by default, it asks you.
Controllers very unlikely to search database. Most are unaware it exists.
 
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PeeGee said:
ASRS only gets reports from ATSAP that the submitter has allowed to be shared, it doesn't get all of the data by default, it asks you.
Controllers very unlikely to search database. Most are unaware it exists.
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Interesting. Out of curiosity, according to the ASRS database, since January 2012 there have been no reports filed by Approach, departure, Enroute, Ground and Local controllers.

However, there have been 193 filed by ATC Coordinators, Supervisor/CICs and Instructors, so some involved with working with controllers on issues apparently are using the database, even to the point of adding reports to it. It obviously isn't searching for who is searching, but, based on the reporting of events, I'd still go with the concept that people doing controller training are using it.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Interesting. Out of curiosity, according to the ASRS database, since January 2012 there have been no reports filed by Approach, departure, Enroute, Ground and Local controllers.

However, there have been 193 filed by ATC Coordinators, Supervisor/CICs and Instructors, so some involved with working with controllers on issues apparently are using the database, even to the point of adding reports to it. It obviously isn't searching for who is searching, but, based on the reporting of events, I'd still go with the concept that people doing controller training are using it.
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Dunno.
the ATSAP stuff is pretty sterilized, so it might be that the source data doesn't make it to the ASRS system. I know of at 3 three that should be there.

My assumption is QA is doing something with the reports if something needs to be done.
Not once have I seen a OTJI use, or even mention thinking of using the ASRS database for training. Why would they? We have radar data and can play back a session with audio immediately after a training session, why would I wait several months and then try to remember what happened? It serves no purpose and we have our own internal reporting, safety council etc. In fact it could be safety council doing post review on an event.

As far as sharing ATSAP reports with ASRS I have no idea what the mix of people clicking yes or no is, I suspect many don't even know what it really means.
 
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Just file one....if they didnt give you a "Brasher warning" The FAA's slang for a phone number and the "possible pilot deviation call this phone etc...) then the FSDO cant even send it to legal anyway...

Always better to cover your a$$ its no big deal.. to file a ASRS
 
taters said:
Just file one....if they didnt give you a "Brasher warning" The FAA's slang for a phone number and the "possible pilot deviation call this phone etc...) then the FSDO cant even send it to legal anyway...
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it's a no brainer, file the nasa.

on the second part, I don't think I agree but I'm not the attorney.
 
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taters said:
Just file one....if they didnt give you a "Brasher warning" The FAA's slang for a phone number and the "possible pilot deviation call this phone etc...) then the FSDO cant even send it to legal anyway...
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Yes they can. The lack of a Brasher warning means that, for certain types of violations - primarily altitude and separation instructions, they can't impose the sanction without giving the warning in the ATC Handbook. But the FSDO can definitely send it to legal and legal can begin formal enforcement action and violate you.
 
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From the OP...

When I filed the ASRS, I spent a bit of time on this website...found it super interesting. There's a monthly newsletter consolidating reports with useful insights. Old archives are there too.

Some of the reports are really amazing...ATP pilots carrying passengers and the mistakes they make for one.

I found the ASRS site to be very educational, and also a bit of a stress reliever when I saw that I'm not the only one who makes mistakes from time to time.

PeeGee said:
Dunno.
the ATSAP stuff is pretty sterilized, so it might be that the source data doesn't make it to the ASRS system. I know of at 3 three that should be there.

My assumption is QA is doing something with the reports if something needs to be done.
Not once have I seen a OTJI use, or even mention thinking of using the ASRS database for training. Why would they? We have radar data and can play back a session with audio immediately after a training session, why would I wait several months and then try to remember what happened? It serves no purpose and we have our own internal reporting, safety council etc. In fact it could be safety council doing post review on an event.

As far as sharing ATSAP reports with ASRS I have no idea what the mix of people clicking yes or no is, I suspect many don't even know what it really means.
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I signed up for the newsletter a while ago. It's definitely good reading.
 
Unregistered said:
I found the ASRS site to be very educational, and also a bit of a stress reliever when I saw that I'm not the only one who makes mistakes from time to time.
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LOL. Far from it!

I used to have dinner from time to time with one of the FAA's enforcement attorneys (the guys who prosecute violations). Over dinner and a beer we would sometimes trade stories about stupid things we did as pilots.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The lack of a Brasher warning means that, for certain types of violations - primarily altitude and separation instructions, they can't impose the sanction without giving the warning in the ATC Handbook.
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For the most part this (which are your garden variety offenses anyway) but a lack of a warning seriously undermines the process....Honestly I could go into alot more detail here but cannot on this forum...bottom line if you "wonder" if you should file an ASRS then you SHOULD file one....
 
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If you goofed on the assigned altitude, file an ASRS.
If you read back 5000 and the controller did not catch it, DEFINITELY file an ASRS.
But I would pull the LiveATC tape first to make sure what you read back.
 
Your readback might make a difference. When I get:

1. Descend and maintain 5500
2. Remain VFR at or above 5500
3. Etc

My response is:

1. RESTRICTED 5500
2. On handoffs "Tiger 123 5500 restricted"

I think it keeps both sides alert.
 
I wouldn't understand that terminology on a hand off. I would use that if I was telling the controller that I was the one restricting myself due to a failure or MEL of some sort.
 
Kritchlow said:
I wouldn't understand that terminology on a hand off. I would use that if I was telling the controller that I was the one restricting myself due to a failure or MEL of some sort.
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SoCal understands it. I've heard it many times out there on trips. From Blythe to Fullerton I think there are like 7 ATC handoffs. The Banning sector usually wants everyone level flying through the pass, and I've always been held high there on arrival.

"Tiger 123, Restricted 8500 request descent" on a heavy freq seems easier then "Tiger 123, level 8500 we'd like to begin our descent now or as soon as you think we can based on your traffic"
 
danhagan said:
SoCal understands it. I've heard it many times out there on trips. From Blythe to Fullerton I think there are like 7 ATC handoffs. The Banning sector usually wants everyone level flying through the pass, and I've always been held high there on arrival.

"Tiger 123, Restricted 8500 request descent" on a heavy freq seems easier then "Tiger 123, level 8500 we'd like to begin our descent now or as soon as you think we can based on your traffic"
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I have heard similar, such as "restricted to 200 kts", just not exactly as you phrased it.
Regardless, if it works for you that's a good thing!
 
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