Alice: Electric plane

United Airlines has been using biofuel for a while now, but in limited quantities.
FYI: True. But the only certified biofuel now is a 50/50 mix of sustainable and fossil. The ones I mentioned above used 100% sustainable mix in an experimental category.
What superconductor do you mean, and how would you use it?
The ambient temp superconductor you mention that is not there yet. Until that happens battery technology will not get us beyond fossil fuels on a global scale. At least that is what I'm learning in my circles. For the world to go 100% sustainable its the only current path on the electrical side or to replace existing petroleum based fuels with clean fuels like hydrogen, etc. which is currently being used to power various types of turbine engines today in realtime. GE is a big player as is a number of other top 100 companies.
 
FYI: True. But the only certified biofuel now is a 50/50 mix of sustainable and fossil. The ones I mentioned above used 100% sustainable mix in an experimental category.

The ambient temp superconductor you mention that is not there yet. Until that happens battery technology will not get us beyond fossil fuels on a global scale. At least that is what I'm learning in my circles. For the world to go 100% sustainable its the only current path on the electrical side or to replace existing petroleum based fuels with clean fuels like hydrogen, etc. which is currently being used to power various types of turbine engines today in realtime. GE is a big player as is a number of other top 100 companies.
I still don't see how you would use a superconductor. To me, it's just a magnet. The current a superconductor can carry isn't infinite. Try to give it too much, and it quenches- it becomes a regular conductor, and an alternate circuit comes on line to absorb the current as heat (and boil off the liquid helium current NMR instruments use) to protect the magnet.

As for hydrogen, it is fine for a fixed installation, but much less so for transportation. The turbines you talk about are for fixed installations:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d42...ines have many,from liquid hydrogen to ammonia.
Look up some of Henning's old posts. He never could get the math to come out.
Using ammonia to increase the energy density of hydrogen is interesting, but ammonia is energy intensive to produce from nitrogen gas. Ammonia is produced on a large scale for fertilizer, and used directly on the fields. Hydrogen is nothing more than a form of energy storage.
 
I still don't see how you would use a superconductor.
This is beyond my skill set, but those I tend to drink beer with who live in this industry tell me the goal of an ambient superconductor is to replace existing electrical conductors, i.e., copper wires, etc. The main purpose being to eliminate/control resistive power loss/heat generation. And at the same time they're reducing the operating temperature for superconductors they are also developing methods to reform/shape them. I'm told to think of them as the "fiberoptics" of the electrical world. Can't offer any more than that.
As for hydrogen, it is fine for a fixed installation, but much less so for transportation.
I think it was Boeing that has already flew a hydrogen fueled aircraft but Airbus has been working several hydrogen based aircraft designs that combine hydrogen fueled turbines in conjunction with hydrogen fuel cells. Plus there are a half-dozen small companies pursuing the hydrogen turbine/hydrogen fuel cell route as well in the smaller aircraft market. There is a lot of "green" money behind these ventures with one entity looking to bring helicopters into the mix. While I don't know what you see on your chemical side, when it comes to the aviation side there is a lot of alternative propulsion research moving forward.
 
This is beyond my skill set, but those I tend to drink beer with who live in this industry tell me the goal of an ambient superconductor is to replace existing electrical conductors, i.e., copper wires, etc. The main purpose being to eliminate/control resistive power loss/heat generation. And at the same time they're reducing the operating temperature for superconductors they are also developing methods to reform/shape them. I'm told to think of them as the "fiberoptics" of the electrical world. Can't offer any more than that.
When you say "who live in this industry". which industry do you mean? I'm assuming electrical transmission. I think you mean "increasing the operating temperature of superconductors".

I was just in the United Kingdom last week. The town of Nottingham has more solar energy produced on rooftops than I've seen in most of the USA. I sow solar on farm houses, too, looking outside the train windows. That's another way of getting around transmission losses- just produce power locally. If done properly, it can make for a very robust system as power can be distributed to other areas more easily.

I think it was Boeing that has already flew a hydrogen fueled aircraft but Airbus has been working several hydrogen based aircraft designs that combine hydrogen fueled turbines in conjunction with hydrogen fuel cells. Plus there are a half-dozen small companies pursuing the hydrogen turbine/hydrogen fuel cell route as well in the smaller aircraft market. There is a lot of "green" money behind these ventures with one entity looking to bring helicopters into the mix. While I don't know what you see on your chemical side, when it comes to the aviation side there is a lot of alternative propulsion research moving forward.
Yeah, Boeing has flown several hydrogen planes. Both fuel cell and conventional. They consider it a very long term solution. Someone pointed out to me here at PoA that hydrogen isn't a fuel- it is simply energy storage. One makes the hydrogen, and then uses it on site or elsewhere.
Here's an interview with Boeing's take on it:
https://simpleflying.com/boeing-no-hydrogen-focus/

Hydrogen is very light, but to get the same energy form a liter of gasoline, you need 8 liters of liquid hydrogen. You need a much larger volume of compressed gas. This link has more information:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcel... a mass basis, hydrogen,44 MJ/kg for gasoline.
Henning never could get around that inconvenient truth. People are working on ways to stuff more hydrogen in a tank such as adsorption on something- the link has some examples. Ammonia is one of those methods.

Ammonia is an interesting energy storage medium, but to make it, we still use the Haber-Bosch process the Germans invented to keep producing explosives after the allies blockaded them from getting saltpeter in world war 1. It's been improved since then, but it is still very energy intensive.
https://cen.acs.org/environment/green-chemistry/Industrial-ammonia-production-emits-CO2/97/i24

My opinion is that the biofuels will be used for commercial aviation. I was expecting that algae would start to produce the lipids we need, but except for Exxon-Mobile, that pretty much disappeared a few years ago. Exxon is still running research on it someplace.
 
But I strongly believe that in the very near future, there will be a huge leap in battery capability, coupled with more efficient motors.

On what basis of knowledge do you have this belief?
 
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On what basis of knowledge do you have this belief?
Sulfur batteries are now available for sale, but haven't been used commercially for vehicles as yet.
https://lyten.com/
They are supposed to be lighter, yet give 3x more range, with 5x range possible in theory for a given size.
Solid state batteries are in development with higher range and faster recharge.
 
Sulfur batteries are now available for sale, but haven't been used commercially for vehicles as yet.
https://lyten.com/
They are supposed to be lighter, yet give 3x more range, with 5x range possible in theory for a given size.
Solid state batteries are in development with higher range and faster recharge.
You've been talking about Sulfur batteries for at least 2 years now. But I'm sure any day now....
 
Yes, I have. From when they were only a lab experiment. They are available now. https://lyten.com/
Prove they aren't available.
Yet somehow we're still waiting for ranges to go up, which I'm sure they will any day now. Miraculous, how that works.
 
You've been talking about Sulfur batteries for at least 2 years now. But I'm sure any day now....
Exactly. Any day now (or many any year now).
Battery R&D is making great strides. Only an ostrich can deny that.
 
Yet somehow we're still waiting for ranges to go up, which I'm sure they will any day now. Miraculous, how that works.
<sarcasm>Yep, a manufacturer is just going to stop production for a battery that just became available in the past several months. </sarcasm> Your comments suggest that you aren't as intelligent as I know you are..
It will happen any day now, whenever a vehicle manufacturer proves to themselves that the new battery isn't going to blow up their cars.
 
Sulfur batteries are now available for sale
Is there a difference in how sulfur batteries store/release energy than in lithium batteries to get the longer performance? Or is it just different materials?
 
<sarcasm>Yep, a manufacturer is just going to stop production for a battery that just became available in the past several months. </sarcasm> Your comments suggest that you aren't as intelligent as I know you are..
It will happen any day now, whenever a vehicle manufacturer proves to themselves that the new battery isn't going to blow up their cars.
So then they aren’t actually useable yet.
 
Huh? Sure they are. Maybe not for your needs, whatever they are.
If a manufacturer can’t use them yet for fear of them blowing up, then yeah, for my needs no they aren’t usable.

you just argued against yourself. And they haven’t proven to extend range on mile yet.
 
Is there a difference in how sulfur batteries store/release energy than in lithium batteries to get the longer performance? Or is it just different materials?
You have two lithium ions binding to each sulphur, as opposed to ~0.5 to 0.8 on the cathode on current lithium batteries. They can be discharged all the way without problems, giving more range.
https://oxisenergy.com/technology/
https://lyten.com/what-is-a-lithium-sulfur-battery/
If a manufacturer can’t use them yet for fear of them blowing up, then yeah, for my needs no they aren’t usable.

you just argued against yourself. And they haven’t proven to extend range on mile yet.
Product liability concerns dictate that you test against problems, rather than just taking someone's word that some freak event won't cause a catastrophic event.

Time will show whether LiS batteries are used, or if they are supplanted with something better.
 
If a manufacturer can’t use them yet for fear of them blowing up, then yeah, for my needs no they aren’t usable.
How quickly do you think a manufacturer should introduce new technology? The day after it's available? Weeks? Months? What do you think they should do before adopting it?

Product liability concerns dictate that you test against problems, rather than just taking someone's word that some freak event won't cause a catastrophic event.
As I'm sure you're aware, it's not just liability, it's to increase your probability of success. I think people not directly involved in aircraft development generally have no idea what's involved in source selection, systems integration and testing, and flight qualification; even for proven technology in a new application. In the case of batteries, many seem to have the impression that they're interchangeable, like the cells in a TV remote, with no consideration for the changes that need to be made to supporting and dependent systems when types change. System engineering really is a thing, and time is relative.

Nauga,
from the SIL on the HIL
 
How quickly do you think a manufacturer should introduce new technology? The day after it's available? Weeks? Months? What do you think they should do before adopting it?


Nauga,
from the SIL on the HIL
The assertion was that it is available. It clearly is not available yet.
 
The assertion was that it is available. It clearly is not available yet.
You have confused "available" with "selected, integrated, tested, and fielded in an application I'm trying to discredit."

Nauga,
WDTSFAL
 
You have confused "available" with "selected, integrated, tested, and fielded in an application I'm trying to discredit."

Nauga,
WDTSFAL
Not at all. The point I'm driving to is that after all these years of touting them, there is still no proof that they are available in the sense that they actually extend range.
 
H

As I'm sure you're aware, it's not just liability, it's to increase your probability of success. I think people not directly involved in aircraft development generally have no idea what's involved in source selection, systems integration and testing, and flight qualification; even for proven technology in a new application. In the case of batteries, many seem to have the impression that they're interchangeable, like the cells in a TV remote, with no consideration for the changes that need to be made to supporting and dependent systems when types change. System engineering really is a thing, and time is relative.

Nauga,
from the SIL on the HIL
You stated it more clearly than I did. Different voltages, charging profiles, and other things I don't know about need to be considered.
Not at all. The point I'm driving to is that after all these years of touting them, there is still no proof that they are available in the sense that they actually extend range.
That's already been proven. More power = more range. Lyten has already demonstrates >500 Wh/kg vs. maybe 300 Wh/kg for the nest LiIon batteries now.
https://www.lis.energy/site/li-s-energy-applications/lithium-sulphur-key-advantages
 
You stated it more clearly than I did. Different voltages, charging profiles, and other things I don't know about need to be considered.

That's already been proven. More power = more range. Lyten has already demonstrates >500 Wh/kg vs. maybe 300 Wh/kg for the nest LiIon batteries now.
https://www.lis.energy/site/li-s-energy-applications/lithium-sulphur-key-advantages
No, it hasn't. There is no car that now gets xx more range due to these batteries. It has not been proven that they work in the real world yet, or how much improvement will actually be achieved by them for the years and years of development effort.
 
Sigh.

You guys are using “available” to mean different things. The batteries may be available for trials, qualification testing, system integration, etc. They are not available for consumer use in vehicles yet.

The word “available” is vague. These batteries are somewhere around TRL 5 at best. They are NOT yet at TRL 9.
 
Sigh.

You guys are using “available” to mean different things. The batteries may be available for trials, qualification testing, system integration, etc. They are not available for consumer use in vehicles yet.

The word “available” is vague. These batteries are somewhere around TRL 5 at best. They are NOT yet at TRL 9.
Sort of. I allowed the goalposts to move to "available" when that was never my point. I just don't get excited about things that *might* someday happen. I'll believe the "progress" when I actually see progress.
 
Sort of. I allowed the goalposts to move to "available" when that was never my point. I just don't get excited about things that *might* someday happen. I'll believe the "progress" when I actually see progress.
None that you know about.

But why do you think it will fail? You are very adamant about it. As I mentioned earlier, another, better, technology, could supplant it.
 
The word “available” is vague. These batteries are somewhere around TRL 5 at best. They are NOT yet at TRL 9.
For an integrator to mature the technology from TRL 5 to TRL 9 that technology first has to be available. ;)

TRL, particularly the higher numbers, is also application-dependent. I doubt anyone would argue that toasters are not available, but they are currently well below TRL 9 when considered as a propulsion system. Candidate battery chemistries that show potential for improved energy and power are available, but whether or not they become practical remains to be seen. That does not mean they are now unsuccessful.

Nauga,
who knows it's easier to tear down than build
 
None that you know about.

But why do you think it will fail? You are very adamant about it. As I mentioned earlier, another, better, technology, could supplant it.
I didn't say it would fail. My position is pretty simple. I believe there is a cap to the potential of battery powered vehicles. I believe we are pretty close to the cap already. There will certainly be increases, and this may prove to be one of them, but it hasn't yet. I think there is a physical limit to chemistry. Unless somebody comes up with something radically different than what we have today, electric vehicles will always be range limited. Electric airplanes are completely idiotic without a totally different way of storing or delivering electrical power.

I didn't say there won't be progress, and I didn't say there isn't a place for electric vehicles.

I just tend to always fight against fanboy optimism that is not realistic. Hell, I've ordered a Tesla. But I do not think it is even close to being a practical vehicle for the average person, and I don't think there is a magic battery fairy that will change that "tomorrow".
 
Certainly. We are discussing transportation applications such as planes and automobiles, not flashlights.
Which might change the TRL of technology under consideration, but not concept of availability of that technology.

Nauga,
who has a toaster
 
I didn't say it would fail. My position is pretty simple. I believe there is a cap to the potential of battery powered vehicles. I believe we are pretty close to the cap already. There will certainly be increases, and this may prove to be one of them, but it hasn't yet. I think there is a physical limit to chemistry. Unless somebody comes up with something radically different than what we have today, electric vehicles will always be range limited. Electric airplanes are completely idiotic without a totally different way of storing or delivering electrical power.

I didn't say there won't be progress, and I didn't say there isn't a place for electric vehicles.

I just tend to always fight against fanboy optimism that is not realistic. Hell, I've ordered a Tesla. But I do not think it is even close to being a practical vehicle for the average person, and I don't think there is a magic battery fairy that will change that "tomorrow".
If you want to know the limits of battery chemistry, my opinion is that it is represented by metal-air batteries. Lithium-air batteries have similar energy densities as gasoline does now. They work....in the lab. To use the three-letter acronym of the day, they are technology readiness level (TRL) 1. I feel those batteries are a long way off at this time. LiS batteries are at the state of lithium-ion batteries when Tesla started electric cars some years ago, and those batteries are approaching their theoretical limits. LiS batteries are just starting their development curve.

Manufacturers are invested in current batteries- how long will it take to do all of whatever needs to be done to integrate a different battery into their designs? Maybe 2026?
 
Which might change the TRL of technology under consideration, but not concept of availability of that technology.

Nauga,
who has a toaster


Then “availability” must include a statement of availability to whom and for what in order to be meaningful. Available to a system integrator does not mean available to the general public.
 
In Post #93 the video shows the electric airplane being charged with a charger that makes a bunch of noise. If you take a careful look in the video you can see a hefty cord from the charger to the wall socket. From there I'm guessing you can trace it all the way back to a coal-fired power station. :dunno:
You raise an important point. Only about 40% of electricity generation in the U.S. is carbon-neutral. I never hear about efforts to increase that.

outlet-graph-large.jpg

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php
 
Then “availability” must include a statement of availability to whom and for what in order to be meaningful. Available to a system integrator does not mean available to the general public.
Maybe. I invented something used in chromatography that was available to other chemists years before the liquid chromatography manufacturers integrated it into their systems. I'm reasonably sure Lyten would sell me a set of batteries if I were building a car or small plane.
 
Maybe. I invented something used in chromatography that was available to other chemists years before the liquid chromatography manufacturers integrated it into their systems. I'm reasonably sure Lyten would sell me a set of batteries if I were building a car or small plane.


I’m sure they would. But you’d have a long way to go before you could sell to the public.

Discussing TRL is more accurate, precise, and meaningful than arguing over availability.
 
I’m sure they would. But you’d have a long way to go before you could sell to the public.

Discussing TRL is more accurate, precise, and meaningful than arguing over availability.
Sell what to the public? Lyten sells batteries. The general public can use those for all sorts of things, including home-built cars or aircraft. Lycoming sells some engines to the public that aren't integrated into type certificated airplanes, but you can use them to make your own airplane or air boat.
 
Discussing TRL is more accurate, precise, and meaningful than arguing over availability.
It *might* be if anyone in the thread had any idea of Eviation's tech mat and was willing to discuss it openly. In absence of that I'll give you precision but will argue accuracy.

Nauga,
a few NDAs behind
 
It *might* be if anyone in the thread had any idea of Eviation's tech mat and was willing to discuss it openly. In absence of that I'll give you precision but will argue accuracy.

Nauga,
a few NDAs behind


Then you also have no accuracy regarding availability. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways.
 
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