Alice: Electric plane

JOhnH said:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/tech...t/index.html?utm_source=optzlynewmarketribbon

Perhaps I am having a senior moment or a brain fart, but I'm not sure I understand this:
Alice will be able to fly for one hour, and about 440 nautical miles. The plane has a max cruise speed of 250 kts, or 287 miles per hour.
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Mainstream media math.

If it can go 440 miles, it would be at a lot less than max cruise speed.

Even then I'm not sure the journalists know what they're talking about anyway.

This is the second Alice airplane. The first was a collection of oxymorons: motors on the wingtips, with taildragger gear, meaning that crosswind landings would be impossible. A third prop right behind the tailwheel, where debris gets kicked up. Almost no ground clearance for the prop. For any of the props, really.
 
Distance 440 n miles in 1 hour duration. Speed = Dist/time = 440 kts average speed. I suppose that if it could burst to Mach 5 for a few minutes, and then "cruise" at 250 kts for the rest of the trip, it could make the 440 n miles.

This math makes no sense - bonus point for the phrase "Main Stream Media Math".

I really like the "recharge in 30 minutes".

EDIT: I just saw it was from CNN. OK then.
 
First flight- planned 2022
Introduction- planned 2023

When will they learn?
 
Dan Thomas said:
Mainstream media math.

If it can go 440 miles, it would be at a lot less than max cruise speed.

Even then I'm not sure the journalists know what they're talking about anyway.

This is the second Alice airplane. The first was a collection of oxymorons: motors on the wingtips, with taildragger gear, meaning that crosswind landings would be impossible. A third prop right behind the tailwheel, where debris gets kicked up. Almost no ground clearance for the prop. For any of the props, really.
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Well, that was a concept, not a real airplane, so this is really the first…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Racerx said:
First flight- planned 2022
Introduction- planned 2023

When will they learn?
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They get lots of investor money. Aviation has been a great place for such outfits to scam money from folks who don't realize the terrific difficulties of creating anything that will live up to the promises so casually made. The history of such stuff is long and depressing.
 
Why is it that I suspect they’ve only done low speed taxi tests because they can’t get enough thrust for a high speed taxi test? Maybe I’m just jaded.
 
I take it to mean that the max cruise speed is 75% of full rated power. But, the 440nm range is based on a power setting that achieves the furthest range for the least amount of energy consumption.

Anyway, that's still pretty short legs compared to say a Pilatus.
 
wilkersk said:
Anyway, that's still pretty short legs compared to say a Pilatus.
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Maybe self identifying - in this case as a Pilatus - is all that is needed these days.
 
WDD said:
Maybe self identifying - in this case as a Pilatus - is all that is needed these days.
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The R44 I fly has a no reserves range of like 300nm and it’s a frickin small helicopter

I’d think a turbo prop airplane would go much much further than 440nm
 
I'm still trying to see the use case. I mean, unless you are using it for very short routes typically handled by comething like a Cessna Caravan or PC-12, I don't see how it makes any sense. You aren't replacing the regional jets running from say, Tulsa to Dallas with over 100 people on board. You'd have to have 6 "Alice" aircraft to do the job of one RJ. I don't think the financials work out on that.
 
Battery technology improves 1 or 2 percent per year, we will be dead before electric flight arrives
 
Maybe you guys might enjoy this. Eviation's hangar is at the other end of 16/34 from my hangar. Every time they tow it out for a ground run or taxi test, I try to get out to watch.

Even though a 9 passenger airplane that can go a max of 440nm at something less than 260kts isn't all that impressive by current turbine engine tech standards, its still innovative and looks really cool.

 
wilkersk said:
Maybe you guys might enjoy this. Eviation's hangar is at the other end of 16/34 from my hangar. Every time they tow it out for a ground run or taxi test, I try to get out to watch.

Even though a 9 passenger airplane that can go a max of 440nm at something less than 260kts isn't all that impressive by current turbine engine tech standards, its still innovative and looks really cool.

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How is it innovative?
 
SoonerAviator said:
I'm still trying to see the use case. I mean, unless you are using it for very short routes typically handled by comething like a Cessna Caravan or PC-12, I don't see how it makes any sense. You aren't replacing the regional jets running from say, Tulsa to Dallas with over 100 people on board. You'd have to have 6 "Alice" aircraft to do the job of one RJ. I don't think the financials work out on that.
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R&D.
Work out the bugs now and when better batteries come along, you will be ahead of the game.
 
JOhnH said:
R&D.
Work out the bugs now and when better batteries come along, you will be ahead of the game.
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But this is being not presented as a test mule but a revolutionary innovative game changing plane that will be produced next year …..

How can you doubt something that has taxied around already and has cool videos with thumping background music?
 
JOhnH said:
R&D.
Work out the bugs now and when better batteries come along, you will be ahead of the game.
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Put a couple of turbofans on the thing and you'd have something ... :rofl:
 
wilkersk said:
...its still innovative and looks really cool.
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That's about all you can say for it, until it flies and goes a good distance at a good speed and doesn't catch fire or need a week to recharge and doesn't cost as much as a Citation.

In fact, it isn't even innovative until it does all that, either. It just looks cool.

So what happened to their original taildragger that caught fire? They didn't stick with the same design, for some reason. Maybe it didn't look cool enough.
 
“It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane, which two or three years ago were thought to hold the solution to the [flying machine] problem, have been exhausted, and that we must turn elsewhere.” -Thomas Edison (1895)
 
I rebuilt an ultralight once and flew it. And I am a pilot, so I am quite smart... (tongue in cheek)

That said, the wing loading on that looks like it is quite high. It "appears" it would have to fly quite fast to keep aloft.
 
wilkersk said:
its still innovative
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what part?

It's a sleek looking composite plane with electric motors. Basically a big RC plane. All of these companies are waiting for that magical Disney Star Wars moment where a battery pack poof comes out with oodles of power. The optimists have been telling us for years that we're "right around the corner" and "just one to two years away"

PS - way to ruin a video with generic rock music. Why does everyone do this on YouTube?? And if they're insisting on music at least make it something that fits the theme and isn't grating on the ears. Classic rock hardly invokes dreams of an all electric zero emissions future



JOhnH said:
Reading this thread makes me think some people would have us stop designing things until we have the design and technology perfected.
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You're not wrong. I hate that we fly behind expensive crappy 1920s technology engines that requires good luck, tribal knowledge, and rube goldberg mechanisms to start and fly.. and I agree that often any innovation effort or suggestion gets met with the crowd of pitchforks saying NOOOOO! It can't be done! You see it (saw it) with glass panels, magenta lines, composite planes, Cirrus, etc. So I generally agree with you. But all these e-[insert-generic-name-here] companies are missing the one key ingredient.. that which they actually need, a battery with cyberpunk fantasy levels of energy storage and non enviro-destructive ways of mining them

A turbine, is still, by INSANE ORDERS OF MAGNITUE the most efficient way to get tons of people around quickly. A big RC plane that can fit a handful of people in it and maybe fly as far a 172 is a pathetic joke of innovation


But hey, maybe the jokes on us/me. These people are getting rich, right? Investors pump tons of money into these startups
 
Tantalum said:
I agree that often any innovation effort or suggestion gets met with the crowd of pitchforks saying NOOOOO! It can't be done! You see it (saw it) with glass panels, magenta lines, composite planes, Cirrus, etc.
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The FAA is the biggest bunch with pitchforks. Getting new tech approved takes a long time, like any other governmental process. The longer they take, the more job security for them.
 
JOhnH said:
Reading this thread makes me think some people would have us stop designing things until we have the design and technology perfected. :confused:
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No, we're just tired of decades of promises that had no fulfillment. It's hard to get enthusiastic about yet another one.

I invented stuff that worked and made money. Guys like Moller invented stuff that ate huge amounts of money and didn't work.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I invented stuff that worked and made money. Guys like Moller invented stuff that ate huge amounts of money and didn't work.
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And somewhere in between these endpoints there are people maturing technology that will enable development of stuff that makes money. That point gets missed a lot by the end user who doesn't see value in the intermediate product.

Nauga,
who sometimes makes the sausage
 
One Nebraska sized pothole or curbing event will probably total it.
 
JOhnH said:
Reading this thread makes me think some people would have us stop designing things until we have the design and technology perfected. :confused:
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I think there are also people who think that all technology and innovation can be identified by a layman looking at the external configuration and performance. From a distance. :rolleyes:

Nauga,
who doesn't think of ignorance as an advantage
 
nauga said:
And somewhere in between these endpoints there are people maturing technology that will enable development of stuff that makes money. That point gets missed a lot by the end user who doesn't see value in the intermediate product.

Nauga,
who sometimes makes the sausage
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Fair and good point. My issue is the over indulgent media love some of the new startups get

This headline below is misleading to Joe-Consumer who's going to take this to mean that the next Orbitz flight he books will be on an electric plane:

"
World’s First Commuter Electric Plane Is Preparing for Maiden Flight
The prototype e-plane, named Alice, can accommodate nine passengers and two crew members.
"

Later in the article there's a dose of reality at least:
"
Eviation isn’t the only company working on electric commercial planes. Airbus, Boeing and JetBlue are working on electric prototypes. However, battery technology remains nascent for the aviation industry, and the Federal Aviation Administration has yet to certify any electric propulsion systems, meaning electric planes could still be years away, at least in the U.S.
"

Source: https://observer.com/2022/01/eviation-alice-electric-commuter-plane-prepares-test-flight/
 
Tantalum said:
This headline below is misleading to Joe-Consumer who's going to take this to mean that the next Orbitz flight he books will be on an electric plane:
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I'm not familiar with Observer.com. What would lead me to believe they would be able to accurately assess the maturity of any given industry's technology? If I condemned every project I've been involved with that was the subject of poor reporting or even just just marketing-based reporting I wouldn't have had much to do.

Nauga,
and sliced bread
 
JOhnH said:
Reading this thread makes me think some people would have us stop promising things as perfected and ready to be produced until it is designed, tested, and developed enough for version 1 to be viable. :confused:
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FIFY

Tantalum said:
A big RC plane that can fit a handful of people in it and maybe fly as far a 172
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Now, that is funny!

As I've said before, I love new products that do something better, faster cheaper. Bring it on! But don't say "I have cold fusion" when you don't. Bring it forward and if it's priced right it will sell! Fantasy hardware / vaporware is tiring.

Now, maybe if the Raptor was electric......:cool:
 
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WDD said:
promising things as perfected and ready to be produced...
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Who made this promise? For me, "entering flight test" is pretty clear and specific.

Nauga,
who is not everyone
 
nauga said:
Who made this promise? For me, "entering flight test" is pretty clear and specific.

Nauga,
who is not everyone
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From the CNN article - it must be true:

CapeAir's proposed fleet of Alices are expected to enter service in 2023 on routes connecting Boston, Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket and Hyannis.

 
WDD said:
From the CNN article - it must be true:

CapeAir's proposed fleet of Alices are expected to enter service in 2023 on routes connecting Boston, Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket and Hyannis.
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Same source, earlier this week: "The FAA has yet to put forward any clear guidelines or regulatory framework for electric airplanes, which fall under the category of Advanced Air Mobility, though Eviation says its is actively working with the FAA to achieve certification for production by 2024"

Neither statement reads to me like a promise that it has been perfected prior to ever flying, much less beginning cert testing. I wouldn't hang my hat on either date, but development and cert testing schedules are notoriously bad, especially before first flight. I would not be surprised to see those dates change, even if it was a conventional airplane. It doesn't offend me.

Nauga,
still aiming for 1Q2020
 
I think you agree with me - I think - that the promise made in CNN article is not reality. Which is to my point that it’s tiring to see these unrealistic promises over and over.

I never said they claimed it was going to perfect it or it needed to be perfect. I did say viable prior to being produced for version 1 for commercial use. The article even outlines the routes. A lot of cart before the horse.

If you have a proven track record - which this company doesn’t - then you’ve earned the right to sound like Elon M. Don’t believe his timelines but do believe he’ll deliver.
 
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