Alice: Electric plane

I wonder how many people gave a thousand good reasons why the Manhattan project would never work.

The Manhattan project only worked because of an unlimited budget to meet an existential need to win a war. There were no financial or regulatory hurdles to clear.

Alice, on the other hand...
 
The Manhattan project only worked because of an unlimited budget to meet an existential need to win a war. There were no financial or regulatory hurdles to clear.

Alice, on the other hand...
Or chemical / physical hurdles.
 
Or chemical / physical hurdles.
Not to be argumentative but there were some pretty significant chemical and physical hurdles overcome in the Manhattan project. E.g., separating U235 from U238 in quantity, lensing/focusing shock waves with shaped explosives, etc. And done with early 1940's technology. But like you, I am pessimistic about the practicality of batteries as the energy source for aviation, in my lifetime. The whole energy density argument seems pretty solid. I tend to think that "sustainable/green" power for aviation will come from a combination of technologies, not just chemical charge storage and electric motors.
 
Not to be argumentative but there were some pretty significant chemical and physical hurdles overcome in the Manhattan project. E.g., separating U235 from U238 in quantity, lensing/focusing shock waves with shaped explosives, etc. And done with early 1940's technology. But like you, I am pessimistic about the practicality of batteries as the energy source for aviation, in my lifetime. The whole energy density argument seems pretty solid. I tend to think that "sustainable/green" power for aviation will come from a combination of technologies, not just chemical charge storage and electric motors.
Didn't require changing the laws of physics though.
 
I wonder how many people gave a thousand good reasons why the Manhattan project would never work.
I think it's the other way around. We knew TNT's limits were more or less reached and math showed theoretical potential for the Manhattan project, so it was pursued..

Batteries really weren't used for very much until the early 1900's. It wasn't until people used laptops and cell phones that there was much incentive to improve batteries. Most of the battery improvements have been very recent. Some interesting things are just getting scaled up now.
But that's because there has always been a better, cheaper, more economical, easier solution to the things that needed energy. Steam / Coal / gas / etc., was always simply easier and cheaper than trying to build electric cars, electric Wright Flyers, electric ships..

200+ years later and billions of dollars spent we're not demonstrably closer. 18 minutes of flying time at 80 knots with a 370 lb (or whatever) useful load is honestly pathetic. Or.. 1 hr with a 10 minute reserve is close to suicidal.. that 10 minutes is hardly enough for one turn in the pattern after a go around. Good luck flying to your alternate after you don't break out at minimums
 
I'm too lazy to do it myself, but I wonder what a comparison in improvements between a Ford model A engine and a modern Turbine engine and a 1900's battery powered motor compared with a modern battery motor would show. I could take a guess....
 
I'm too lazy to do it myself, but I wonder what a comparison in improvements between a Ford model A engine and a modern Turbine engine and a 1900's battery powered motor compared with a modern battery motor would show. I could take a guess....


For a DC motor, most of the improved performance came from using rare earth magnets, samarium cobalt or neodymium. Otherwise they’re much the same.
 
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For a DC motor, most of the improved performance came from using rare earth magnets, samarium cobalt of neodymium. Otherwise they’re much the same.
I'd hazard a guess that there was also a considerable performance benefit from the introduction of brushless motors and the necessary controller hardware and firmware.

Nauga,
a beneficiary
 
I'm including battery improvements not just motor. Power / weight. I still think electric pales in comparison to fossil fuel. But any day now, it'll all change.....
 
I'd hazard a guess that there was also a considerable performance benefit from the introduction of brushless motors and the necessary controller hardware and firmware.

Nauga,
a beneficiary


Some, not as much as you might think. Mostly reliability and life improvements, versus torque/speed improvements. Torque is a function of the magnets and the current and winding, regardless of brushes versus brushless commutation.
 
I think it's the other way around. We knew TNT's limits were more or less reached and math showed theoretical potential for the Manhattan project, so it was pursued..


But that's because there has always been a better, cheaper, more economical, easier solution to the things that needed energy. Steam / Coal / gas / etc., was always simply easier and cheaper than trying to build electric cars, electric Wright Flyers, electric ships..

200+ years later and billions of dollars spent we're not demonstrably closer. 18 minutes of flying time at 80 knots with a 370 lb (or whatever) useful load is honestly pathetic. Or.. 1 hr with a 10 minute reserve is close to suicidal.. that 10 minutes is hardly enough for one turn in the pattern after a go around. Good luck flying to your alternate after you don't break out at minimums

This is all true. However, today and in near future, the oil powered propulsion is under a regulatory hammer. So you can make the case that it is no longer easier to do. Hence a lot of development in the electric propulsion. Is it going to succeed in replacing all forms of oil powered vehicles? I'm skeptical, especially in aviation. But it may completely change the aviation as we know it. It won't take that much to make that 18min flight time into a usable trainer. 2x battery capacity and you are there. Short leg passenger service? Probably 4x. Long distance B7xx style travel? Probably not in my lifetime. As far as usable personal travel electric GA plane. That is not the market anyone cares about. It's probably going away when AvGas is gone.
 
Some, not as much as you might think. Mostly reliability and life improvements, versus torque/speed improvements. Torque is a function of the magnets and the current and winding, regardless of brushes versus brushless commutation.


I'd add, though, that on the electronics side, we did get a huge benefit from PWM drives.
 
Those modern super magnets remove the need for current to power the field, which was once half the energy input of a DC electric motor.

Brushless synchronous motors are much more efficient than technology with brushes.

Aside from energy efficiency, the weight of a given motor has been cut an amazing amount. My 1950's 3/8 inch drill weighs 5 times as much as my new one, and is powered through a cord. The new one's weight includes the battery that will do most jobs without a recharge.
Will the new one last as long as the old one? Probably not. Will it run continuously without over heating, haven't found out yet, but it is strong enough that after breaking them loose, I run all the lug nuts off my 3/4 ton Pickup to rotate the tires, then run them back on, tight. Torque by hand, of course, but they are quite tight when the drill stops.

The energy density PER POUND of batteries is the limiting fact now.

Super light and slippery airframes are another possible advance.
 
However, today and in near future, the oil powered propulsion is under a regulatory hammer. So you can make the case that it is no longer easier to do. Hence a lot of development in the electric propulsion.
FWIW: But in reality this is only a 1st world/developed country issue where regulations are used or enforced. Same with climate change initiatives. So when you get out of those developed countries and areas, on a larger geographical scale, concern for EV and fossil fuel use drops to zero. Regardless, without some sort of usable superconductor, electric technology will not eclipse the internal combustion engine well beyond several lifetimes.
 
FWIW: But in reality this is only a 1st world/developed country issue where regulations are used or enforced. Same with climate change initiatives. So when you get out of those developed countries and areas, on a larger geographical scale, concern for EV and fossil fuel use drops to zero. Regardless, without some sort of usable superconductor, electric technology will not eclipse the internal combustion engine well beyond several lifetimes.

Sure. It’s also the same countries that produce all the vehicles in the world. So unless 3rd world countries start making and exporting cars/planes, not sure it makes any difference

EV(of any kind) might never become as usable as ICE, but they don’t have to. They just have to become usable enough and less expensive to use. A feat that can and will be artificially achieved via tax policies. Or outright banning

look at Norway. They now sell 10x more EVs than ICE cars. All due to government giving lots of incentives
 
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Sure. It’s also the same countries that produce all the vehicles in the world. So unless 3rd world countries start making and exporting cars/planes, not sure it makes any difference

EV(of any kind) might never become as usable as ICE, but they don’t have to. They just have to become usable enough and less expensive to use. A feet that can and will be artificially achieved via tax policies.

look at Norway. They now sell 10x more EVs than ICE cars. All due to government giving lots of incentives

Tax dollars at work. Saving the earth, one lithium mine at a time...

images
 
look at Norway. They now sell 10x more EVs than ICE cars. All due to government giving lots of incentives
It's good if you own an EV manufacturing company. It's always good for everyone when the government chooses the winner.
 
Uh huh. And you should see what rare earth mining and processing does, too.

In Post #93 the video shows the electric airplane being charged with a charger that makes a bunch of noise. If you take a careful look in the video you can see a hefty cord from the charger to the wall socket. From there I'm guessing you can trace it all the way back to a coal-fired power station. :dunno:
 
So unless 3rd world countries start making and exporting cars/planes, not sure it makes any difference
It won't make a difference since most 2nd/3rd world countries either have in-country vehicle OEMs or are networked to those that do. Plus I seriously doubt Toyota will stop making Hiluxs for those world markets even after Japan goes EV.
A feat that can and will be artificially achieved via tax policies. Or outright banning look at Norway. They now sell 10x more EVs than ICE cars. All due to government giving lots of incentives
And thats the thing. Only countries like Norway and certain parts within similar countries will be able to make the EV switch. The African continent for the most part won't/can't. Same with most of South and Central America, Indonesia, SE Asia, etc, etc. Even areas like Alaska and the NWT in our 1st world continent would be near impossible to make that type of switch.

As to aircraft,1st worlders have always been the initial providers of these global services so I would imagine you are correct this part will probably follow the EV path faster. But that will just open new markets for the old aircraft we don't use anymore just like today. It's definitely going to be interesting given the push aviation is getting to expand in all directions to include deeper into more rural environments like landing 767s in Antarctica now. Whats next?
 
Now don't get me wrong. I'm as big a proponent of electric vehicles as anyone. But I think it should be market driven instead of government driven.

And speaking of Norway, perhaps they can afford to subsidize EVs given that they have a minuscule defense budget and huge oil export revenues.
Does anyone see the irony in a country that profits from exporting fossil fuels and uses those profits to subsidize EVs in their own country?
 
So you can make the case that it is no longer easier to do.
Something will need to force our hand, be it regulations or physically running out of fossil fuels. I'm not saying it's not possible, but all the empirical evidence out there suggests that for the first time in our history we'll be taking a step backwards, at least with regards to how quickly we can send a number of people great distances at once. An environmental argument can be made, but jet engines already burn pretty 'clean' and lithium ion is not cheap or environmentally neutral process.. free lunches and all that
 
It won't make a difference since most 2nd/3rd world countries either have in-country vehicle OEMs or are networked to those that do. Plus I seriously doubt Toyota will stop making Hiluxs for those world markets even after Japan goes EV.

And thats the thing. Only countries like Norway and certain parts within similar countries will be able to make the EV switch. The African continent for the most part won't/can't. Same with most of South and Central America, Indonesia, SE Asia, etc, etc. Even areas like Alaska and the NWT in our 1st world continent would be near impossible to make that type of switch.

Agree. I misunderstood your previous statement a bit. It's pretty obvious to anyone that there is no way to electrify the "3rd" world transportation. As far as I'm concerned, all this electrification effort will not put a dent into climate change even if 100% successful. That's not going to stop the "1st" world governments in pursuing the goal. After all, doing something is far more important than achieving something. It might, however, extend our oil supply for a while and perhaps lower our dependency on even worse governments around the world.

My prediction on transportation in developed world. As the countries become more and more urban, there will be a push to decrease number of personal vehicles. And personal transportation in general. It's already happening and this is really the next logical step in decreasing emissions. The big planes will still use jet fuel(there is really nothing even on the horizon to replace it), but someone will replace it with "carbon neutral" synthetic fuel and call it a win.
 
Now don't get me wrong. I'm as big a proponent of electric vehicles as anyone. But I think it should be market driven instead of government driven.

And speaking of Norway, perhaps they can afford to subsidize EVs given that they have a minuscule defense budget and huge oil export revenues.
Does anyone see the irony in a country that profits from exporting fossil fuels and uses those profits to subsidize EVs in their own country?
The irony is definitely quite glaring
 
It might, however, extend our oil supply for a while
FYI: In my limited knowledge on the subject, between the known and "unknown" global petroleum reserves there is plenty to last until some smart group develop a usable superconducter even at our current oil usage rates.
As the countries become more and more urban, there will be a push to decrease number of personal vehicles. And personal transportation in general. It's already happening and this is really the next logical step in decreasing emissions.
It is happening with UAM. Once the regulatory flood gate opens this will be the benchmark for most "modern" urban areas and once established will set the foundation for the future once technology catches up.
The big planes will still use jet fuel(there is really nothing even on the horizon to replace it)
There are replacements (actually mixtures) but you run into what is first... the chicken or the egg equation when it comes to regulatory issues. On the land based side, hydrogen fueled ICE turbines will probably be the main ticket to moving things to the next level. Personally, I think hydrogen will be the game changer until a superconductor is developed. After all it "powered" air mobility prior to airfoils, lift, and Charlie Taylor.
 
And speaking of Norway, perhaps they can afford to subsidize EVs given that they have a minuscule defense budget and huge oil export revenues.

Minuscule compared to the US, but not per capita if you compare it with the rest of the world.

Agree to the rest of your points though, and it's certainly ironic.
 

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FYI: In my limited knowledge on the subject, between the known and "unknown" global petroleum reserves there is plenty to last until some smart group develop a usable superconducter even at our current oil usage rates.

It is happening with UAM. Once the regulatory flood gate opens this will be the benchmark for most "modern" urban areas and once established will set the foundation for the future once technology catches up.

There are replacements (actually mixtures) but you run into what is first... the chicken or the egg equation when it comes to regulatory issues. On the land based side, hydrogen fueled ICE turbines will probably be the main ticket to moving things to the next level. Personally, I think hydrogen will be the game changer until a superconductor is developed. After all it "powered" air mobility prior to airfoils, lift, and Charlie Taylor.

I meant to say jet engines. The fuel will be replaced with something "sustainable". As you said, replacements already exist to an extend.

As far as oil. No I don't think it's running out any time soon, but it is a finite product. If we get to a point of it really running out(or coming close) before finding viable replacement, the world would really be in trouble. Far bigger trouble than any climate change
 
The fuel will be replaced with something "sustainable". As you said, replacements already exist to an extend.
FYI: they're already flying turbine helicopters with 100% sustainable fuel plus I think there is a jet as well. I would expect in the near future the current 50/50 blend regulatory requirement will be slowly changed until 100% is permitted in civilian ops. Unless something unforeseen happens.
 
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True about the mines. Oil has it’s own issues however!

@Jeff767, my post was in response to:

look at Norway. They now sell 10x more EVs than ICE cars. All due to government giving lots of incentives

I was only half-joking that the Norwegian government is "virtue-signaling" with the EV incentives. As far as I know, Norway has no known mineable deposits of lithium. Yet, they are 13th in the world in oil production. Do you not see the irony here?
 
Sure. It’s also the same countries that produce all the vehicles in the world. So unless 3rd world countries start making and exporting cars/planes, not sure it makes any difference

EV(of any kind) might never become as usable as ICE, but they don’t have to. They just have to become usable enough and less expensive to use. A feat that can and will be artificially achieved via tax policies. Or outright banning

look at Norway. They now sell 10x more EVs than ICE cars. All due to government giving lots of incentives
Government giving incentives... I'm sorry but the libertarian in me can't help but translate that for you. ...government reducing their tax burden... there you go.
The end result is similar but from what I've read about vehicle taxes in Norway the translation is more correct.

Okay, now back to your regularly scheduled program
 
".. endure the influence of even the most misguided investor.." yikes
 
By the way, the founder and CEO just abruptly resigned.. and by the way it reads it was not amicable. Sounds like there was a disagreement that could not be resolved

According to the referenced article, part of that disagreement was over the slow pace of battery development. It seems the project was relying on battery design and capability expanding to meet the needs of the project faster than is actually happening. If that is the case, this may be a really cool design that has no source of power to meet its mission needs until battery development catches up, or a switch is made another energy source.
 
FYI: they're already flying turbine helicopters with 100% sustainable fuel plus I think there is a jet as well. I would expect in the near future the current 50/50 blend regulatory requirement will be slowly changed until 100% is permitted in civilian ops. Unless something unforeseen happens.
United Airlines has been using biofuel for a while now, but in limited quantities. Their SST is supposed to use biofuels.
https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/...er-flight-using-100-sustainable-aviation-fuel


FYI: In my limited knowledge on the subject, between the known and "unknown" global petroleum reserves there is plenty to last until some smart group develop a usable superconducter even at our current oil usage rates.

It is happening with UAM. Once the regulatory flood gate opens this will be the benchmark for most "modern" urban areas and once established will set the foundation for the future once technology catches up.

There are replacements (actually mixtures) but you run into what is first... the chicken or the egg equation when it comes to regulatory issues. On the land based side, hydrogen fueled ICE turbines will probably be the main ticket to moving things to the next level. Personally, I think hydrogen will be the game changer until a superconductor is developed. After all it "powered" air mobility prior to airfoils, lift, and Charlie Taylor.
The problem with hydrogen is it has a terrible energy density, even as a cryogenic liquid. People here said batteries have poor energy density, hydrogen is worse. It's only advantage over batteries is that it can be refueled faster, at a similar rate to gasoline or diesel.

What superconductor do you mean, and how would you use it? I haven't heard of any breakthroughs to make them work at room temperature, although we have them running at liquid nitrogen temperatures. The "warmest" I've heard of one working is 133 degrees Kelvin. We use superconductors to make powerful magnets that are used in NMR instruments.
 
But that's because there has always been a better, cheaper, more economical, easier solution to the things that needed energy. Steam / Coal / gas / etc., was always simply easier and cheaper than trying to build electric cars, electric Wright Flyers, electric ships..

200+ years later and billions of dollars spent we're not demonstrably closer. 18 minutes of flying time at 80 knots with a 370 lb (or whatever) useful load is honestly pathetic. Or.. 1 hr with a 10 minute reserve is close to suicidal.. that 10 minutes is hardly enough for one turn in the pattern after a go around. Good luck flying to your alternate after you don't break out at minimums
Again, it's a political statement to use a 200+ year timeline. There was very little effort invested to improve batteries until recently. It also takes time to make a new product into reality. I invented a method to calculate gradients for chromatography 6 years ago. It was so simple that it was originally implemented on a Excel sheet. It took 3 years for my employer to put that simple bit of code into any of our chromatography systems, and our competitors are finally doing it after 6 years. Just for a simple piece of software.
Now lets consider a major change to a battery used in a car- do you think Elon Musk is going to change to a new battery chemistry without a lot of testing? Would you do it? Those car batteries are what will allow electric flight because economies of scale reduces the cost of those batteries.
It took several years for LiS batteries to leave the lab and become commercially available:
https://lyten.com/products/batteries/
So years to get an idea out of the lab to the point that someone can sell it, and now more time to test it in a car to make sure there aren't unexpected problems.
 
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