Airliners and Icing/deicing

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by skier, Dec 27, 2017.

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  1. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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  2. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    Are they using it as a single-step de-ice/anti-ice?
     
  3. Lando

    Lando Pre-takeoff checklist

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    With cold air over so much of the country right now, are there any requirements that airports have de-ice capabilities for the airlines?
     
  4. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No requirements but if they want to run an airline they'd better have it. The airline that is, not the airport. All the major airlines have their own equipment. Some share other airlines stuff, mostly regionals. It was worse when regionals were referred to as commuters. I remember having to wait for the sun to do it when Delta had equipment there, and we were carrying Delta passengers, but couldn't use Delta equipment. Crazy times.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  5. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    The only requirement is that the airplane must be free from contamination for takeoff.
     
  6. MD11Pilot

    MD11Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    Referencing a previous post about a passenger speaking up about an airliner not being deiced....a former F/O and a member of our safety committee was being dead headed on a Value Jet DC-9 out of Louisville in the winter and had to call the flight attendant when they blocked out and said to tell the crew that the wing was contaminated. She went forward and came back and said the Captain said no problem and to take his seat. He was in uniform. He told her that if they did not return then he wanted off the plane now and to tell the Captain he was calling the FAA right now. He had his cellphone and had the number pulled up. There was enough ruckus that the Captain came back and glared at him and under his breath told him to sit down and shut up. Several other passengers said they wanted off too. They went back in and got deiced. A normal passenger would not gotten the same response.
     
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  7. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Southwest de-ices?

    Must say I’m pleasantly surprised. Last time I was in Denver, everybody was going to the de-ice pad....except SWA. They said ‘screw that’ and went straight for the runway. I guess they figured they were taxiing too fast for anything to stick.
     
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  8. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Good on the commuter for standing up to that airline get-there-itis. Passengers certainly don't get that benefit, nor do they routinely have the information or knowledge to be able to make a discerned safety call such as that. And we know what happens when the chucklehead left seater and the ground "support" agencies both roll snake eyes. Swiss Cheese.
     
  9. Lando

    Lando Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Actually, I was questioning whether the airlines require airports to have de-ice fluid on hand. It’s not unheard of to have frost in FL, and if an aircraft was contaminated the only option would be to wait for the sun to come out if there wasn’t fluid available (this would probably be most relevant for early morning flights).
     
  10. Mason

    Mason Pattern Altitude

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    You either buy your own fluid, equipment, and staff, or hire it done by someone else. You can't "require" it from the airport.
     
  11. Larry in TN

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    They balance the climate at the airport location and estimated impact on the schedule against the cost of providing de-ice/anti-icing capabilities. There are airports where no de-icing capabilities are maintained by the airport or airlines.
     
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  12. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    When I was at American we ran out. Shut down DFW for American, delta didn't want to share. It's the operator's responsibility to have it or to contract someone to do it for you.
     
  13. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    It's on the operator, not the airport. I imagine fbos provide the service at some locations.
     
  14. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Cold air in and of itself does not constitute the need for deicing.
    But more precisely to your question, no.
    If am airlne rather cancel flights vs deice, that’s their perogative.
     
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  15. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Line Up and Wait

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    This is the case at a small airport like PIA. The FBO provides the service and bills each airline. Same with fuel.
     
  16. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    We just needed de-ice that evening. Wings and tail only.
     
  17. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    You'd think that the Type II would be more expensive than Type I for di-icing, but who knows?
     
  18. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, who knows... all they have there is Type II. Maybe it’s cheaper for them to just carry one Type than worry about stocking both Types I & II.
     
  19. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    We don't run into that on my fleet on our international flights to places like Aruba and Cabo...
     
  20. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The lesson DEN should have learned is that they lost too much time switching between types during crunch time. Dunno if they’ve ever figured it out.
     
  21. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    I have been on a flight on Delta out of PHX where they did not board until after sunrise because that was their only available means of removing frost from the plane. I am guessing that PHX is the biggest airport where major airlines' deicing plan is "it is not needed often enough to spend money on" but I don't imagine it's the only one.
     
  22. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Don’t think so. Last time I had to de-ice was at DEN in November. Took them a rather lengthy time to complete with a fair amount of down time between actually spraying stuff on the aircraft.

    Pathetic thing was how they were spraying. They probably only got maybe 30% of the fluid on the actual airplane. The rest was taken away by the wind.
     
  23. Larry in TN

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    It shouldn't take any time at all to switch between Type I and Type IV. Both are carried on the same truck. The operator just throws a switch and they are spraying the other fluid.
     
  24. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe the operators at DEN (Swissport) are just challenged?
     
  25. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    I think DEN is tough for anyone that doesn't have 'United' written on the side of their jet. When there's a big push, it can be a long wait for us peasants being sent to the WA deice pad. :)
     
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  26. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    The Canadians are the best. They spray our RJs with I and IV in like 10 minutes. PIT took forever to spray us down. I can’t imagine how long it would have taken them to do a mainline plane.
     
  27. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah like Toronto, like a drive thru and they use fixed little towers on both sides of the plane, so it's quick and organized.
     
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  28. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    They likely had some other, unrelated, problem that caused a delay.
     
  29. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Don’t think so. I was watching the trucks de-ice our aircraft and the two next to us. Same process. Lot of down time between spraying different fluid.
     
  30. Larry in TN

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    I wasn't there but can say that a long delay to switch fluids is not part of the process.
     
  31. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    How many times have you been de-iced at DEN?
     
  32. Paulie

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    Super 80s were a real problem, the wings would make ice on a 60 degree high humidity day. AA had one with the bottom of one wing painted black. Unlike Boeing they didn't have a hydraulic to fuel heat exchanger in the wing and those skinny short wings had something to do with it. Never found a good solution, every other type in the fleet would have no need for deice but the 80s would be getting sprayed. Mechanics had to be positioned at de-ice station and sign off on condition. Really lousey job. The ice formed after fueling and turn around time was less than 45 minutes.
     
  33. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    In my MD-80 days, our manual allowed us to take off with frost on the upper and lower surfaces of the wing where the fuel tanks were. I guess we had a more laid back POI. ;)
     
  34. Paulie

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    Guess so, but we routinely had 1/2" of ice.
     
  35. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Oh wow - I didn't realize it got that thick. I think we were only allowed to 1/8", which seemed to work okay for us.
     
  36. Larry in TN

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    I never counted but my employer is the largest tenant of DEN, so...
     
  37. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And yet you are unfamiliar with the de-icing delays that were/are routine at Denver...
     
  38. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    Deicing delays are routine everywhere that they deice. I'm talking about the process for switching from between Type I and Type IV between the de-ice and anti-ice applications.
     
  39. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Not sure if your guys that handle the WA deice pad or not, but they run a truck on each side of the plane that can switch fluids like you said. Probably takes 15-20 minutes total for Type I everywhere and Type IV wings and tail. Our problem is that WA has 6 bays and handles a number of airlines, so the lines get pretty long while you guys seem to have access to a much larger number of bays for your fleet.

    That said, I'm not complaining. We're strangers in your backyard, so I expect to be treated like red-headed stepchildren! :)
     
  40. Busflyer

    Busflyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A300 is bad about that also. We’re always having to spray the outer wings when no one else is. Outer tanks are burned last and rarely do we even burn anything out of them so the fuel gets cold soaked.