Airliners and Icing/deicing

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by skier, Dec 27, 2017.

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  1. KSCessnaDriver

    KSCessnaDriver Pattern Altitude

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    Try Atlanta, it's a joy...
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :yes:
     
  3. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Do they have like 2 deice trucks?
     
  4. Getonit

    Getonit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    And a motivated caring workforce
     
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  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    They have a lot, especially Delta, but that's Delta's biggest hub so they have Delta and Delta Connectors to deice/anti-ice, so a lot of planes and the line/wait gets long. When I left the airline in 2013 it was a lot more organized than years prior, and better.
     
  6. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Flew with a guy that called it a work free drug environment. :)
     
  7. KSCessnaDriver

    KSCessnaDriver Pattern Altitude

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    And a bunch of highly paid pilots that can't talk on the radio... Makes things run so smoothly.
     
  8. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

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    No it’s not required, nor is it required for the airport to have any sort of ice or snow removal for the surfaces, check out the current NOTAMs for CHS airport is closed cause they can’t clear anything

    It’s up to the airline to decide if the cost of maintaining and training a de ice crew and truck is worth it. At my current carrier I haven’t seen anywhere without trucks, we own our own though.

    At my previous carrier sometimes it was contracted out and several airports had no de ice capability. I remember one morning in Daytona we had more than the allowable amount of frost on the wings and had to wait for the sun to melt it off before we could go, we took a delay. It’s up to the airline to decide if the frequency of that delay or possible cancellation is more cost effective than having the capability to De/Anti ice


    Also someone else mentioned some planes de icing and others not, it’s a factor of many things and the planes have different properties a plane might build ice up when another has not, or perhaps one plane was sitting around all day covered in ice but the other aircraft just flew in and turned, just because one aircraft is de icing doesn’t mean they all need to. If it’s sctively a form of freezing/frozen precip then you should see all aircraft anti-icing doing it. It’s important to note it’s really two separate things, De Icing and anti icing, if you de ice you don’t necessarily need to anti ice, if you are going to anti-ice as part of the two step process you’d deice immediately prior
     
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  9. Piperboy

    Piperboy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yesterday we sat at the gate for about 40 minutes, in moderate snow. By the time we taxied to the deicing pad and started deicing it must have been about 55 minutes. We had a pretty good layer of snow on our A321.

    Two trucks pulled up. It took 379 liters of 100% type I fluid (100 gallons) and 174 liters of 100% type II fluid (46 gallons) to deice/anti-ice the wings and horizontal stabilizers. I estimate this process cost $1984. A management pilot told me the company spends millions of dollars annually on deicing.

    Few days earlier we treated a lightly coated A320. It took 54 liters of hot type I fluid (14 gallons) and 180 liters of type II fluid (47 gallons).

    So the numbers vary wildly depending on conditions, airframe contamination, the boom operator and other variables.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  10. skier

    skier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks for all the answers here. It was a fascinating discussion.
     
  11. BiffJ

    BiffJ Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Couple days ago I was in Providence Rhode Island watching them deice a couple RJs and it was quite amusing to see. The first one I think was a delta feeder and must have been a training mission because there were two guys in the bucket. They half heartedly hosed off one wing then moved the truck to the other and did the other wing and winglet. As they went back to the first wing (to do the winglet) they hosed off the horizontal stab and a bit on the vertical. It looked like they intentionally avoided blasting the inlet for the APU but it could have just been luck. It took about 10 minutes to do the whole thing mostly due to the truck driver wandering around the plane while the hosers were blasting green goop. I would say that 90% of the fluid (gel?) ended up on the ground though it looked like they did hit the plane on purpose occasionally. Lots of waste.
    The second plane was an American feeder and the deice crew did the whole thing in about 5 minutes with little waste and good coverage. One guy in the bucket who seemed to have a clue. Amazing difference between the 2 crews.

    Frank
     
  12. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Wrong thread! :D
     
  13. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    sorry Robert, 5 dollars doesn't buy my undivided attention....
     
  14. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Oops how the hell that happen lol.
     
  15. Piperboy

    Piperboy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Two days ago I flew with a pilot who said just recently he deiced/anti-iced his A320, and it took them 3100 liters of type I and 500 liters of type II fluid, that's 792 and 132 gallons respectively.. Ouch.
     
  16. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

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    For the short time I worked at DEN I got to go all around the airport de-ice pads. They have a reclamation pool they use to treat the fluid that drains from the pads that yields some crazy high percentage of re-usable fluid. Apparently saves the airport a huge amount each year.
     
  17. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Yet the airlines repay in full for the used fluid, over and over.
     
  18. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Also keeps the fish in the airports watershed from turning neon green.

    Some airports deice at the gate or other areas that dont have the catchment system. Thats where you may see vacuum trucks to lap up the spilled fluid to send it to the recycler.
     
  19. KaiGywer

    KaiGywer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    They were intentionally avoiding the APU inlet. Spraying the APU inlet leads to a big puff of smoke and an inoperative APU, which in turn leads to cranky pilots :) As for the driver walking around, the CRJs have to have a tactile inspection done, meaning someone has to physically touch the wing to make sure all the contaminants are clear.
     
  20. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    Heard about this on the news the other day.
    https://www.accuweather.com/en/vide...-icing-fluid/rkyxgzote6hdyurzylam9azus71gthd3

    That **** can't be good for the groundwater.
     
  21. rocketflyer84

    rocketflyer84 Line Up and Wait

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    I’ve always wondered what happens to all the green goop after takeoff as a lot of it slowly peels off after rotation. I’ve heard some airports where residents complain the stuff rains down on them as planes fly overhead.
     
  22. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    They are naturally occuring alcohols and actually not all that toxic. As with every substance, this is somewhat dose dependent. A place like MSP goes through the stuff by the tanker car, probably more of a problem than some airport where the FBO deices the occasional business jet.

    A bigger issue has been runoff from airport firefighting training facilities. The fluorinated chemicals used in some of the foams (AFFF) are not biodegradeable and have been implicated in groundwater contamination.
     
  23. rocketflyer84

    rocketflyer84 Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, peoples concern about the de-icing fluid seems to be more about odor from the stuff evaporating over their house as it flies off planes. Some people think it has a sickening sweet smell. I would think it can’t smell worse than the jet fumes smell that probably waft over those living next to airports.

    The firefighting foam issue is a ticking time bomb for a lot of airports. The stuff is already in the soil already from times when people cared less about these things or didn’t know any better. Now groundwater contamination is startling to be detected and it’s no small task to fix.
     
  24. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    The green goop is supposed to peel off before rotation which is why airplanes with slower rotation speeds (<90 kts?) aren’t supposed to use it. But I have found residue in the airplane after it has flown at cruise for 4 hours.
     
  25. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My favorite was ABR...a little, short blond lady runs the station there and deices us in record time from an open-air bucket truck, not these fancy-schmanzy enclosed cabs with remote control spray guns that they have in MSP!
     
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  26. rocketflyer84

    rocketflyer84 Line Up and Wait

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    Indeed, I’ve seen airplanes that still had a fair bit observable on the wing after flight. Enough that at first glance it looked like there might be a fluid leak of some sort until you realize there’s no antifreeze in the wings :)

    Stuff definetly doesn’t all come off before rotation though, at least in my observation. Most does come off though in the first few mins of flight.
     
  27. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    There is always a bit of a residual film of the stuff, but there shouldn’t be a layer of the stuff.
     
  28. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It is designed to hold accumulating snow in suspension. When it's doing it's job and capturing frozen precipitation it seems to increase in "sloughability". I've watched it on deadheads several times and usually around 90-100 kts it starts sliding off with the accumulated moisture. There will always be some residue for awhile afterwards. We've even had rampers come up and tell us something is "leaking onto your tires" which turned out to be residual Type IV dripping.
     
  29. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Back when we were called "commuters" our Brasilia had frost on it in Ft Walton Beach/Eglin AFB FL. The contract fueler, I swear, dragged over a 8-10' stepladder, a 2-3 gallon garden sprayer w/ deice stuff in it. I was outside doing the walk around and when I got to the tail he was standing on the top of the stepladder, arcing the fluid onto the tail. Yikes!

    Probably the best and quickest I've experienced is Toronto. Something like 4-6 lanes, pull in, and they hit you from both sides. Taxi out and a short distance you're at the end of the runway, and they get you out well before holdover time expires.
     
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  30. KaiGywer

    KaiGywer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Do any of the stations still have the old "Mesaba deer stands"? A tower pulled by a tug
     
  31. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Haha I remember those too! ASA had them also.
     
  32. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Northwest abandoned many of the wild and wooly places with the retirement of the Brasilia. Suprised they didn't find a replacement for it.
     
  33. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Interesting. I've never seen anything like that. All our outstations have bucket trucks now.
     
  34. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    NWA had Brasilias? I didn't recall that. Interesting. The Saabs are all I recalled. The "Bro" is talked about fondly by many of the Captains I flew with who started out on it at SkyWest.
     
  35. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    They had Saab 340s, same engines as BRASILIA. ASA was the launch customer for the Brasilia; COMAIR, SKYWEST, Continental Express, and TransStates (TWA) were the others that flew them. Might have been others.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  36. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Back when we were called 'commuters', before your time. ;):D
     
  37. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Were those the "good old days?" :p
     
  38. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Actually they were, a lot of fun times. We made do with what we had, and didn't have, and had a great group of people. I was 425 when I got hired, and there were 1700+ when I retired. Looks like they're headed back to 425 and lower unfortunately. A lot more fun when we were smaller. No regrets though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  39. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Definitely a dynamic industry. I was number 3,445 when I signed on. Pilot group has grown to 4,400 and I'm 2,330 now, three years later. Definitely having a good time!
     
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  40. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Yup... I flew for the “commuters” back when they operated under part 135. “One level of safety” was still years down the road.
     
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