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Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by brien23, Dec 8, 2022.
This is also my experience. Wide range of ages and both male and female.
I want you in the pine box because your prognostications have not come true in the 20-odd years I've been flying, but they seem just as loud as the first day I found them floating in the aviation punchbowl.
Right foot first if you please. Also an updated spec sheet on any planes you'll be leaving behind... to help the widow liquidate the dying velocipede into the hands of one of us grim hobbyists who are blind to our doom.
Our last Hartsfield experience sold the wife on a twin for serious travel. Huge difference in the Sheltair vs Shiznit Air experience.
This fits my demographic. I soloed the day before my 60th birthday in late November.
I finally have the time and means to pursue my lifelong dream of flying my own plane, but I don't see any good deals out there for a capable time-builder training plane. Even the clapped out 150s/152s rejected from flight schools all seem to be gold plated with platinum linings. When they come up for sale they are snapped up by eager buyers before the ink dries on the ad. I know the flight school I am using has been actively working on tracking down more trainers - but at a reasonable cost.
But long term, they fly for a living, get to the point they have a good income, then get back into GA. Lots of retired airline pilots buy a GA airplane.
Also, the flying demographic will always be heavily to the older crowd. Much harder for most younger people to afford flying. Older people have a higher income typically, and the kids are out of the house. You see the same thing in auto racing. Some young ones trying to get to the point of making it their job, and the older ones, who wanted to do it when they were young, but could not afford it.
If you had been flying 40-odd years, you might have a different perspective.
I just find it amazing that you want to kill me merely because I make a particular statement on a discussion forum.
You make another good point…… or two. It is for the most part, older people that have been accumulating long enough to be at the point of aircraft ownership. It’s not a trivial expense, even at the low end.
For me, at that stage of my flying I bought a nice Cessna 140 for my time builder. It was fun and relatively inexpensive to fly. I still have it even though I have had a few other planes come and go. Mine has a custom panel with a six pack and a 420 and ADS-B transponder. It is even currently IFR certified making a great and inexpensive to operate instrument trainer.
So you're saying aliens crash on short final too?
Only near KROW.
I think aviation has always been ahead of the inflation curve, no matter how far back you go. There’s some truth to policy changes and such having an effect on the industry, but I’m not sure it’s had the impact that some have predicted.
You make a valid point on both comments. I would suspect that most folks in that age group are working toward becoming a jet pilot of some flavor or another. That said, years ago, it was a bit easier for the blue collar worker to try their hand at ownership, but those days are more or less behind us, as the market has nearly priced them out. These days, those same folks have had to resort to renting, while the white collar individuals, being less affected by inflation, can still stomach the costs of aircraft ownership and have enough cabbage left over to actually fly and maintain it.
NOT FOR SALE
Nice! I’m missing that 170 that I learned to fly this summer.
“Flying a 170 is like dancing with the belle of the ball” - Gary Gandy
And landing one is like landing on a trampoline!
You have to set her down just right with my PPonk 180 legs…treat her like a lady
That is nice!
I am still looking.
If you had to guess the appreciation value of that plane from when you purchased it to what it would sell for today, what do think it would be?
I gave $20K for her in 2005. She was a beautiful plane with a great running engine but it was almost TBO. With a fresh engine, ADS-B in out and a 420 done since I bought it, I turned down $45K for her about 8 months ago.
My taildragger isn’t for sale either. There were people wanting to check my sanity when I turned down $45K for her. My other planes have come and gone and my other one could be bought, but my taildragger will be mine until I lose my medical.
Thanks for providing that data. I did some research and it seems that I started my flight training about 18 months too late. If I had started earlier, I could have easily found 150s in serviceable shape for less than $20K, and equivalent 172's for only a little more. every time I see where a GA plane is lost due to an accident or storm damage, I realize that my dream of ownership keeps getting further out of reach. While there may have been insurance, I bet that there is no way they come even close to being able to buy a new plane, so that puts even more pressure on the used market.
Don’t know if the Covid had anything todo with it, or if it’s coincidental, but at the beginning of Covid, most any plane that could be used for flight training started gain g drastically in value. At least that’s the way it appeared to me.
Multiple posters have pointed to the fact that aviation maintenance shops are always booked. As though that were evidence that the GA community were healthy. This is not a sound argument.
All this indicates is that the supply of maintenance service is inadequate to meet demand. However it says nothing at all about the absolute magnitude of the demand. In other words you could have a big community with a shortage of maintenance or a tiny community with a shortage of maintenance.
In reality, the shortage of maintenance capacity is simply another indicator of the ill-health of the GA community. The shortage is of course entirely caused by the FAA in two matching ways. They place excessive restrictions on who may perform service or be an AMT. (The government does this all the time with every industry. The reason you have to wait 2 months to see a dermatologist is because the government restricts who can provide that service) The FAA may also demand excessive maintenance schedules or require inspections of an excessive number of components. Because of simple supply and demand, a lack of mechanics drives up the price of maintenance. In the end this all serves to increase the cost of airplane ownership and ultimately the cost of private aviation. This all suits the FAA just fine of course so it comes as no surprise.
High maintenance costs discourage airplane ownership and lead to a shrinking community. Low maintenance costs encourage airplane ownership and therefore would go hand-in-hand with a healthy GA community.
adjusted for inflation, that equals $123.02/hr today.
There currently aren’t a high number of experimentals on the market, so perhaps you have a valid point.
(I haven’t scrolled through all the replies on this thread, so forgive if this has already been touched on).
Aren't most plane loans fixed rate? If so increased listings wouldn't be driven by increasing rates alone. I know many people that are waiting for prices to drop. I think broadly you will see some softening but the most in-demand and well equipped planes will likely be less impacted IMO
I'm (still) actively looking - starting to see some price reductions on middle-of-the-pack airplanes; the ones with so-so engine times and/or needing avionics upgrades. There are a LOT of Cirrus (Cirri?) on the block right now. My impression (not supported by research) is those middlin' airplanes are lingering longer. Prices on the very popular models remain well up - understand, I'm not looking at anything much over $125K, so what's happening above that is outside my notice.
Unfortunately $125K is a pretty low ceiling in todays market.
I bought a beautiful 1968 Cherokee 235 with a low time engine, 3 blade prop and modern avionics. Has great paint and interior. I imported it from Canada. All in for 119k. I think the deals are still out there - just have to maybe look a little deeper, I’m sure a 2018 Cirrus SR22T G6 is going to be hideously expensive no matter what the market. I guess its about finding the right plane for you mission and probably having to make a few compromises along the way.
I get to join the long line of sellers whose buyers backed out. Lucky me, I'm still an airplane owner. I'm not renewing my ads, I'm not doing a damn thing to sell this until Spring. I think Winter a crap time to sell an airplane.
That's a bummer, sorry to hear. Mind sharing what the justification was for pulling out of the deal?
The buyer was a military contractor, and I suspect he got deployed.
I have seen a few analysis and inventory is up along with time to sale, but prices (in general) haven't moved much. I suspect that is the next shoe to fall. How far and for how long is the $$$ question. I would love to upgrade but it's a pure want, not a need so am content waiting for now.
that sucks. I saw your ads - nice plane at a nice price. I've been eyeballing mooneys lately. Yours was just a pinch outside my price range. good luck with your sale when you relist !
I have an annual scheduled for the end of Feb, we’ll see. A few things were fixed over the year, running superbly right now.
I agree the peak is past, may as well enjoy ownership. I’m due for another Mackinac Island trip.
Thats is what pretty airplane!
If it's only a pinch send me a PM and tell me your thoughts. Only electrons.