ADS-B out. Transponder and installation for $2,435. Why I pulled the trigger now instead of waiting.

I have ADS-B in via a Gamin GDL 39 and Area 796. All I needed was ADS-B out to be legal. Appareo makes an all in one box (the Stratus ESG ADS-B Out and WAAS GPS) for only $2,995. Size-wise this is a replacement for most King and Narco transponders. I had a Narco AT-165 that was about 10 years old.

I emailed all the shops with 250 miles of my home base (KLVK) and found one that had a reasonable price for the install. Based on my research this only involved adding a tray, GPS antenna and re-pinning the connector. Far less work than a UAT 978 install. Shops up and down the state were coming in around $1,100 to $1,500 for the install.

Airtronics in Jackson CA called me about an hour after they got my email. After asking a few questions this shop made a firm quote over the phone for 6 hrs labor at $90 hr for the install, $540 total. It's really not that difficult to install a Stratus ESG. Pull the tray, re-pin the connector, mount the antenna, configure using the menus and ground test. It was a 30 minute flight to Jackson California for the install. Arrived early in the morning, done the same day.

Here is something I did not expect. Airtronics paid me $600 for my Narco AT165. That was more than fair. Apparently there is a very healthy secondary market right now for our used transponders in countries that do not require ADS-B. Airtronics has a relationship with an exporter. This is a unique situation that is not going to last when tons of transponders start to get replaced as we near 2020. Even more reason to upgrade now. I believe if you wait supply and demand, will make your existing transponder worth less as trade-in.

Another reason to do this now. We are talking about 1090 ES. My read on was 1090 ES is that it was kind of "reserved" for the big metal. GA was supposed to install the "lower cost" UAT 978 units. Well the increased cost of installing a 978 solution does not makes sense when compared to the lower cost of installing the Stratus and even the Garmin 1090 units in most GA aircraft. Also, you can't fly to Mexico or Canada (Belize or anywhere else for that matter) without 1090 ES. So in my opinion it won’t be long that the 1090 band gets congested and the FAA comes down with a directive around to save the band for the the jets and and carriers flying over 10,000 ft. routinely. I believe getting 1090 ES now might make sense.

Here is another cost savings hint. There was no need for a replacement transponder antenna. My spike antenna was fine. Many of the shops I contacted up and down the state insisted on installing a dual band "shark-fin" dual antenna for an additional $250. This is not necessary. If you are receiving ADS-B In via another device (i.e. Garmin GDL 39) there is no need for the dual band antenna. The Stratus ADS-B OUT is 1090 only. The unit is not going to receive ADS-B IN and there is no need to waste the money on a new antenna. My advice is to move on to another shop if they insist on installing the dual band antenna for ADS-B OUT only.

Here is another cost savings. Appero includes the external WAAS GPS antenna in the $2,995 price. I had mine mounted foot behind the rear window on my Cessna 182. Garmin's all-in one transponder looks competitive until you find out they don't include the GPS antenna. That is an additional $634. And Garmin is insisting on a dual band antenna transponder antenna even if you don't need ADS-B in. Another $250.

To get the $500 rebate you will need to fly for an hour. Yes, you must do the four 360 degree turns and the 90 degree crossing. The climbs and descents will occur naturally. A quick flight for 30 minutes did not cut it the first time I tried to certify. I recommend you fly slowly for an hour above 7,500 ft and do all the maneuvers required.

I did not certify within the airspace that you are required to have ADS-B. I was in class E airspace at 8,500 feet flying from Livermore CA to Willows CA. I had an excellent controller at Travis Air Force Base work with me to handle the maneuvers. I let her know what I was doing and she was extremely helpful. Trying to accomplish this within the Mode-C veil seemed a bit cumbersome given all the Class B airspace I would have to avoid. We need to clear this myth up. You do not have to certify within the airspace ADS-B is required for 1090 ES. At least that was my experience.

After a hour and 10 minutes I landed in Willows CA. I waited 20 minutes and submitted my ADS-B Performance Report request via my iPhone. Then I sat back and enjoyed an excellent lunch at Nancy's Airport Cafe. About 25 minutes later I checked my email and I had my sold four GREEN bars on the ADS-B performance report along with the incentive code required to claim my FAA rebate.

SUMMARY:

Stratus ESG $2,995

Install $540

Trade-in $-600

Rebate $-500

Out of pocket cost (minus taxes) - $2,435

Cost of a new Mode-C transponder is $1,900 without installation. So if you are in need of a transponder now, shell out another $500 bucks, find an honest installer, and become compliant. I was tempted to go with Garmin but I would have spent more. $634 for the WAAS GPS antenna and $250 for the dual band out antenna. $884 savings with Stratus ESG. I say go for it while the FAA Rebate and the value of your trade-in is still high

 

Congrats, that's actually a good price for equipping with ADS-B Out.
Glad you found a good and honest avionics guy, they are hard to come by nowadays.

I know I can google the answers but: does this transponder support anonymous mode?

 

It's also copy/pasted 5 times on these boards. Apparently it's TOTALLY legit and not a spam bot at all.

 

Really? Dang, did I fall for a spambot? I did not see any suspicious links or ads. And I saw this one only once (not sure what other threads it was posted in).

 

At the time of the posts, I checked the profile and there were 5 posts total, 4 the same copy pasted message about the stratus abdsb out box.

 

No I am, not a bot, or affiliated with Appaero or any avionics company/shop. I wrote this letter for the AOPA as they were looking for member's ADS-B stories. I cut and pasted the letter to here too many times!! Sorry about that. Being a new member I did not know which forum to post to, hence the re-posts. Also after reading some posts about what others were paying for upgrades I lazily posted the info again. I can just delete all this and my account if I am causing a problem here. Newbie operator error. be kind.

 

I look forward to hearing how smoothly the FAA rebate process goes.
Jon

 

Just got an email from the FAA:

Thank you for your participation in the FAA ADS-B Rebate Program.

Your rebate is now APPROVED, in accordance with the terms and conditions as set forth in the rebate program rules. You should receive a check within 4-6 weeks.

 

$500 check received. I applied for the rebate on Oct 9, revived the check on Nov 1st. Less than four weeks. Note, my validation flight was not 100% within ADS-B mandated airspace (see earlier post). Maybe I just got lucky, but 90% of the time I was outside of the mandated ADS-B airspace. I flew the certification flight before I learned about the recommendation to be within the mandated ADS-B airspace. Instead, I took this advice from the FAA website:

"For best results, ADS-B validation flights should be conducted within published areas of FAA ADS-B Coverage. See map for coverage areas"

I located three ADS-B ground stations on a Google earth map someone had provided a link to and planned a flight for an hour near those ground stations. My assumption is being in range of the ground stations minimized any signal drops.

Has anyone else out there got a check yet ? My check # was 10097. No way they have issued over 10,000 checks. Does this mean I am the 97th person to get a check ? Hopefully they are using multiple bank accounts and there are 100s of people out there who have received a rebate.

 

If you wrecked your airplane today, what could you sell your used ADS-B Out for?
Just wondering what the used market would look like, if one can develop.

 

Not sure how this rumor keeps surfacing. You DO NOT need any ADS-B to fly in Canada, nor are there any plans for it.

 

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Documents/AIP/Current/part_2_enr/2enr_eng_1.pdf

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Pages/on-board-operational-initiatives-ads-b.aspx

 

Are you flying in the High Arctic and/or over the pole? That's the only airspace in Canada that uses ads-b.

There IS NOT a mandate for ads-b in Canada for general aviation, nor are there any plans.

 

I'm in SoCal - the local shops were all in the mid $6k for a Stratus ESG-i install - with the shops in the central valley in the $4k arena. Taking the $500 off and $750 for my 330 would have brought it down to right around $2750 -

Instead I opted for updating my GNS-530 to waas and the GTX-330 to ES. I considered GTX-345 but that would have been an insane price.

Local shops were in the $7500 range for the upgrade - wherewas central valley shops were $5500 or so out the door- I decided for basically $2000 to get the waas functionality - I'll do the test flight on the way home -

I chose a shop in Modesto - and having the annual done at the same time since its due this month - and it a simple Amtrak ride to Oakland Airport and then Southwest home -

 

How much is the WAAS upgrade? I have my GNS that I'm looking at upgrading.

 

You have to send the 430 or 530 unit back to Garmin for the WAAS upgrade. Current price they charge is $3695.00
I just sent mine in for the upgrade 2 weeks ago. They replace the processor, update the software and some other magic tricks, then send it back with a new GPS WAAS antenna as part of the package.
http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/waasupgrade?#fragment-1

Frankly, if there isn't a need or desire to equip the plane for the lower minimums of LPV approaches it may make more sense to apply these WAAS upgrade funds toward a transponder that has a built in WAAS GPS. There are several out there now including the Garmin 335/345 and the L3 Lynx. The all up cost might be less than upgrading the 430/530 just for a position source.

 

+1.
The limited coverage in Canada is for the polar routes over Hudson's Bay region. If your Bo, Mooney, SR22T, Tiger, Arrow 3, Turbo-150 or whatever other high performance plane you bought on the advice of POAers responding to your "What Plane Should I Buy" thread is used regularly to emulate Lindbergh's visit for a $100 hamburger with French fries then your ADS-B installation will be very handy in Canadian airspace. Otherwise...

 

The WAAS upgrade is $3695 for the box ., . . and a de minimus about for labor - bench test - slide it back in - hook up the GPS wire to the 330 for ES.

 

The waas was a math exercise for me - it opens up lower mins at LOTS of airports that previously had 500-700' min with GPS or VOR approaches can now get down to anywhere from 250-400 feet - thats huge improvement.

Plus my coupled approaches with my 60-2 autopilot are much better when using a GPS signal than a ILS for some reason...

Anyway - the analysis was:

Stratus ESG-i - $3495.
Install was about $1000.
Minus $500 rebate
Minus $750 trade in for my GTX330 = $$3245.

WAAS Upgrade: $3695 [remember - the $3695 cost is dealer cost - there is some profit in there they can choose to rebate back to you]
GTX330ES: $1150
Labor: $ 400 - its box swapping - then bench test - then new PFM entries - and logs and 337 - and i'm getting a credit from the retail price
Total: $5225
minus rebate: $500
$4725. . .

I figure $1500 for the increased functionality of a waas box was clearly worth it - plus it adds $8000 to the value of my airplane V-ref whereas the Stratus only adds $2500 . . .

 

Believe you overlooked the labour to change the antenna...which can be interesting and expensive if the headliner has to be removed to change out the coax.

 

So, to understand what's missing out of that, there was no option for panel ADS-B In with either of those? And that that's what the extra cost of a GTX 345 would have bought?

 

You can change my antenna from the top of the airplane - 4 screws - reseal it when putting the new antenna back on - existing coax worked fine - I already HAVE a working 530.

Yes there is labor for antenna as well as the new transponder antenna below - but its not a major tear the airplane apart evolution -

Shops who charge 20 hours of labor for this are ripping people off right and left when you have an existing working set up -

No ADS-B in because its another $3000 for the 345 because the used 330 does not have a lot of value in the market todayu -

I can buy 4 Stratus boxes for the price of that - and once I'm squitting I'll start seeing traffic on the ipad - plus - well - the Mode S is still displaying traffic on the 530w. . .

 

I'm hoping to get my local Garmin Dealer shop to send my GTX330 in for update to ES (extended Squitter). I have a GNS430W however don't want to integrate.
Question: I have a GTX328 available. Does anyone know if they are swap compatible? Like the earlier questions, tray size, pin & plug would need to be the same and I'd need Mode S redone for me.

I don't think I need to connect for the 430W as I don't want/need weather/traffic on the 430W. This should be a super simple and affordable path to ADS-B yeah?
Any ideas? Going further, my plan is to use GTX330ES for 'out' and stay with Stratus/Foreflight/iPad for weather and traffic. Any pros & cons to share?
Thanks
Dave

 

The GTX328 is a cheaper mode S transponder than the 330ES was if I understand correctly but these cannot do ADS-B out so not what you need.

The GTX330 can be upgraded to ES making it a Mode S transponder that is ADS-B out ready. It must be hooked to the 430w for ADS-B out. This gets you ADS-B out and Mode S and NO ADS-B in.

http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01533-00_05.pdf

 

Your cheapest solution for 'Out' is to use the 430W as the position source for the 330ES.

 

Sorry - I wasn't clear about that. I want to use the 328 as a temp solution while my 330 is off to Garmin for upgrade.
Thanks for responding!
Dave

 

That sounds right - updating GTX330 to add ES will leverage what the 430W is already doing right? i.e. Is 430W already providing position source?

 

Yes. Most likely need an additional wire from the 430w to the GTX and of course the software in the 430w may need to be updated. It should be pretty painless.

 

**CAUTION, Blatant Hucksterism Follows**

There is a less expensive way to DoItYourself with the Appareo ADSB-Out stand alone box. www.rstengineering.com and then to the ADSB page.

Jim

 

Can you do it for under $2K?

Take Chomanchee pilot's total cost $5225 minus the 430 upgrade to 430w ($3695) = $1530ish

Should cost dbonnar about $1500 in his airplane.

 

My agreement with Appareo is that I cannot publicly disclose what I am selling the unit for, which is why I asked you to go to the website for a private email. I also cannot tell you whether or not you are qualified for the $500 rebate OR what your current transponder will get you in the market. Those are variables over which I have no control.

I can tell you (privately) to the penny what it will cost you to have the Appareo unit delivered to your front door including shipping and (if shipping to California) taxes. I think I can safely guarantee you that you will not be able to find it for less anywhere. In addition, you get (at no additional charge) the two connectors and coax cable that Appareo does not supply for whatever reason. Plus a CDROM with all the installation manuals and other stuff that is not normally included.

Jim

 

It would cost me $300 just to have a certified repair station do the functional test, which is included in that $1500 estimate above.

 

What do you mean, functional test? Do you mean the biennial transponder/encoder test? Or something else that isn't necessary?

If you mean the biennial test, $300 is a rip-off.

Jim

 

For ADS-B In, I've replaced my panel mounted (Air Gizmo) GPSmap 396 with an Aera 660 which has identical stack height, and a GDL 39R ADS-B receiver hardwired to the Aera 660 to display traffic.

For ADS-B Out, the plan is to use my existing GTX 327 with the GDL 82 UAT (with built-in WAAS GPS receiver) as soon as it becomes available (AS&S says they expect a shipment October 22, but I think I'll wait a couple of months to make sure there aren't any issues since it's a new product).

The Aera 660 was $750, the 660 Air Gizmo was $109.95, the GDL 39R was $799, and the GDL 82 is $1795.