ADS-B Compliance on the Cheap?

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by MBDiagMan, May 17, 2018.

  1. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Sounds funny to use the word cheap in any paragraph related to aviation, but here goes:

    I am taking the Mooney to the avionics shop for a 345 to go with my 430W. That is not an inexpensive solution, but worth it for the missions that she is assigned. My Cessna has a very nice custom panel with six pack, center stack, etal. On a nice flying day, I sometimes fly to the DFW area and in any airspace I would like to be putting out an ADS-B signal.

    It seems like I remember some discussion somewhere along the way about cheap OUT solutions for experimentals and such. So...... what are some reasonable solutions that are a practical investment for a $20K plane? I don’t want to put a $100 saddle on a $10 horse.
     
  2. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    If you go the 345 route...you will be locked into either Garmin or Foreflight.....iPad solutions. o_O

    I didn't want that....I'm going with the 330ES for "out" and I have a box that WIFIs the "in" to my iPad.
     
  3. FORANE

    FORANE Pattern Altitude

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    Ads-b compliance real cheap: stay out of rule airspace.
     
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  4. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

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    If you already have a 430W, a I think a 345 or Appareo is a no brainer.

    Wait until you have to do your 140 :/
     
  5. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I guess as usual, I was not clear.

    The Mooney is scheduled for a 345 installation next week. That decision is done. It is the Cessna that I need to do with an inexpensive means for ADS-B compliance. I enjoy flying it to Dallas on a nice day to see my Mom, and I save the Mooney for longer distance traveling.
     
  6. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    My question and comment relates to the Cessna. The 345 in the Mooney is easily justified. It is a premium example of a very nice aircraft. The Cessna is nice too, but it is not worth a lot of money. It is the horse getting the $100 saddle.
     
  7. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

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    I misread your post. Maybe wait and see for the uAvionix? I'm putting a 335 in my 140A. Hopefully these transponders will last another 30 years...

    edited to add: mode c was mandated after the 1986 Cerritos midair.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  8. Ray Eaker

    Ray Eaker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wait for uAvionics or spend a bit more and go with a Stratus ESG. Stark Avionics has a good price on them, last I heard.

    Or, install the Dynon solution for about the price of your Cessna but you'll want to fly it more than the Mooney, then.
     
  9. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    Buy a cheap ADS-B in solution.
    Reverse a couple of wires.
    Should be ADS-B out at that point, right?

    You're welcome..
     
  10. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

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    If your alternator can take the load, GDL-82 is what I would put in. It's about $1700+installation {Antenna included - correction by Stan Cooper who actually uses it}. Not very cheap, but Stratus is more expensive ($3,000 or about the same as GTX-335). The uAvionix thingie is promised to be cheaper, but I don't know when that's going to happen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
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  11. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    New Yawkuh (Okay...Brooklyn) accent on:

    So dis guy gots two airplanes, an he's askin yoos guys hows he can make his cheepuh airplane ADS-B compliant for next to nuttin? Fuggetaboutit.

    NY accent off
     
  12. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

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    That's what I did. The GDL 82 UAT works well with my existing GTX 327. The GDL 82 is $1795 including the Garmin WAAS GPS antenna. It uses your existing transponder antenna.

    Maximum current draw for the GDL 82 with GPS/SBAS is 0.5A (14 volt system) or 0.3A (28 volt system).
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
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  13. aggie06

    aggie06 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Talked to a Uavionix dealer today. He said they expect certification before Oshkosh (for both the wingtip and tail beacon versions). That’s aggressive, but anything close to that makes my 2020 solution a no brainer. Next to nothing on labor. More features than GDL-82 and installed in a few hours.
     
  14. Ray Eaker

    Ray Eaker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Some of the Vans RV guys that have installed the uAvionix solution have had issues with traffic dropping out of view on their iPad and intermittent sniffing of the transponder transmission. A few of them have wired the in/out via serial and found it to solve those issues. I suspect there will be updates to hardware and software, as time goes by, to solve these issues.

    http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=161019
     
  15. Ben2k9

    Ben2k9 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Staying out of class E then?
     
  16. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Yeah but that defeats the entire purpose of the wireless/laborless installation, wrt non-experimentals. At that point one might as well go with the GDL and get a more robust solution to the "sniffing" issue, since GDLs are being installed in the belly and thus close to the xponder ant.
     
  17. aggie06

    aggie06 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Seems most of them are using the Echo solution. That's an in/out box, isn't it? You'd think the fact that this is an out-only solution would mean fewer problems.

    Regardless, as long as it checks the 2020 box, it's a tempting solution. Whether it works perfectly or not.
     
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  18. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

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    The echoUAT doesn't have an internal WAAS GPS receiver like the GDL 82 and the skyBeacon, so you'd have to connect it to your existing WAAS GPS source or the uAvionix SkyFYX (another $548).
     
  19. aggie06

    aggie06 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Gotcha. That makes sense. To clarify, my point is that if the Sky Beacon checks the 2020 box with almost no installation work, it’s very tempting. The transponder is still there is some sort of position source backup for ATC (albeit not as accurate). I just want the cheapest solution with the least amount of work.

    I was also trying to understand whether there were differences in the functionality of the two solutions, which it sounds like there are. If so, maybe the issues some of the Vans guys are having won’t show up on this system.
     
  20. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

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    Help me out here; what features does the skyBeacon have that the GDL 82 doesn't?

    Installation of the GDL 82 involves mounting the box, running coax from your existing mode C transponder to the box and from the box to your transponder antenna, and installing the WAAS GPS antenna and connecting it to the box. The multi-pin cable supplying power and carrying RS-232, USB, anonymous mode, and fault alert signals also has to be installed.

    In my humble opinion as a former USAF avionics repair and installation tech, hardwired connections are more reliable than Bluetooth or Wi-Fi wireless connections and worth the extra couple of hours installation time in the long run. Reports from the field suggest configuring the GDL 82 from your laptop using the Garmin supplied application is a piece of cake.

    The price for the TSO'd uAvionics skyBeacon is $1,849. The price for the TSO'd GDL 82 including the Garmin WAAS GPS antenna is $1,795.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  21. FORANE

    FORANE Pattern Altitude

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    Class E within continental below 10000 doesn't require ads-b out.
     
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    The question that concerns me most is, can this be turned off? Lets say that I just want to go do touch and goes at OKH, Must I turn it on.?
     
  23. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

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    Yes; If ADS-B Out is installed in your airplane, it must be on and transmitting during ground operations and when you're flying. However, some UAT ADS-B Out implementations have an "Anonymous Mode" option when squawking 1200.

    From AC 20-165:

    (2) Turning Off ADS-B.
    14 CFR § 91.225 requires that all aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out operate with the equipment turned on at all times. There are no 14 CFR §91.227 requirements to disable ADS-B broadcasts at the request of ATC. When ADS-B functionality resides in the Mode S transponder, it is acceptable for the only means to disable the ADS-B transmissions to be disabling the transponder. If this architecture is used, specify the impact in the flight manual, (e.g. loss of ADS-B, transponder and TCAS functionality). Locate the ADS-B on/off controls to prevent inadvertent actuation.

    §91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.
    (a) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—

    (1) Meets the performance requirements in TSO-C166b, Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) and Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B) Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz); and

    (2) Meets the requirements of §91.227.

    (b) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—

    (1) Meets the performance requirements in—

    (i) TSO-C166b; or

    (ii) TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz;

    (2) Meets the requirements of §91.227.

    (c) Operators with equipment installed with an approved deviation under §21.618 of this chapter also are in compliance with this section.

    (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:

    (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;

    (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

    (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

    (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

    (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.

    (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

    (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

    (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.

    (f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times.

    (g) Requests for ATC authorized deviations from the requirements of this section must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

    (1) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative ADS-B Out, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

    (2) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with ADS-B Out, the request must be made at least 1 hour before the proposed operation.

    (h) The standards required in this section are incorporated by reference with the approval of the Director of the Office of the Federal Register under 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part 51. All approved materials are available for inspection at the FAA's Office of Rulemaking (ARM-1), 800 Independence Avenue, SW., Washington, DC 20590 (telephone 202-267-9677), or at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). For information on the availability of this material at NARA, call 202-741-6030, or go to http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/code_of_federal_regulations/ibr_locations.html. This material is also available from the sources indicated in paragraphs (h)(1) and (h)(2) of this section.

    (1) Copies of Technical Standard Order (TSO)-C166b, Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) and Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B) Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz) (December 2, 2009) and TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz (December 2, 2009) may be obtained from the U.S. Department of Transportation, Subsequent Distribution Office, DOT Warehouse M30, Ardmore East Business Center, 3341 Q 75th Avenue, Landover, MD 20785; telephone (301) 322-5377. Copies of TSO -C166B and TSO-C154c are also available on the FAA's Web site, at http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/tso/. Select the link “Search Technical Standard Orders.”

    (2) Copies of Section 2, Equipment Performance Requirements and Test Procedures, of RTCA DO-260B, Minimum Operational Performance Standards for 1090 MHz Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) and Traffic Information Services-Broadcast (TIS-B), December 2, 2009 (referenced in TSO-C166b) and Section 2, Equipment Performance Requirements and Test Procedures, of RTCA DO-282B, Minimum Operational Performance Standards for Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B), December 2, 2009 (referenced in TSO C-154c) may be obtained from RTCA, Inc., 1828 L Street, NW., Suite 805, Washington, DC 20036-5133, telephone 202-833-9339. Copies of RTCA DO-260B and RTCA DO-282B are also available on RTCA Inc.'s Web site, at http://www.rtca.org/onlinecart/allproducts.cfm.

    [Doc. No. FAA-2007-29305, 75 FR 30193, May 28, 2010; Amdt. 91-314-A, 75 FR 37712, June 30, 2010; Amdt. 91-316, 75 FR 37712, June 30, 2010; Amdt. 91-336, 80 FR 6900, Feb. 9, 2015; Amdt. 91-336A, 80 FR 11537, Mar. 4, 2015]
     
  24. TigerGene

    TigerGene Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The Skybeacon is a self contained stand alone system. Therefore installation is much simpler, “cleaner” and cheaper as it is not wired to any other avionics system, nor does it require installing an antenna. No holes to cut, no wire to run, no problems with outdated coax or connectors. It uses the existing nav light circuit for power, nothing else to install. Frankly it seems the ultimate in simplicity. If the ADS-B system stops working, troubleshooting is extremely simple. Just a power wire a ground wire and the unit itself.

    The GDL82 is more complex and expensive to install. If you have a problem with ADS-B out, troubleshooting will include coax cabling, power, ground, connectors, antenna and the transponder itself and antenna. An added downside is if the GDL82 fails your transponder won’t work either. The Skybeacon doesn’t care if the transponder works or not.

    Frankly, I don’t care too much if the sniffer is 100% reliable or not as long as it works most of the time. As long as I am in compliance with the thing installed, and it works well enough to avoid complaints from ATC, I’m happy. Truthfully, I avoid airspace where it is required so on those rare occasions when I “need” it, I’m sure it will be good enough. It is TSO’s by the way, or will be, so it’s reliability to some minimum standard can be assumed, at least for my use.

    However, if I regularly operated in airspace where ADS-B is required, I would certainly install a more expensive and robust system.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  25. aggie06

    aggie06 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I hangar at an airport underneath Class B, so I will almost always be flying in an area where it is required. However, the fact that I can install this without spending so much time/money to install the thing is a huge selling point. I'm not going to cut new holes in my airplane or have it down for a week while the install and the 337 paperwork are done. The Uavionix solution is a 15 minute job with a minor modification noted in the logbook. I'm in the camp of just wanting to check the 2020 compliant box. As long as I'm in compliance by installing, everything is fine. The fact that SkyBeacon allows changing my flight ID is also a plus. Without that, I can't fly under CMF or NGF callsigns when doing charity flights. All the GDL 82 can give me is an anonymous mode.

    The Garmin shenanigans are also a big turnoff. At Oshkosh last year, I asked if my A&P, who is not a Garmin dealer, could install the GDL 82. I was told yes, of course. I further clarified that I wanted to make sure the warranty would still be valid and was told yes, of course. After all, this thing is so simple that any A&P can do it. Now that I am getting close to a decision, their story is changing. They now say I need to go to a Garmin dealer or they won't warrant anything.

    Neither of these solutions is the best solution, but the Uavionix seems like it will be less expensive.
     
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  26. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Cleared for Takeoff

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    How about flight to Canada? Not that I go often but want the option. When does one need ‘1090’ to cross the border? Other than that, the ‘Skybeacon’ seems a possibility.
     
  27. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    Canada does not mandate ADS-B.
     
  28. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Yup, right in that camp with ya.
     
  29. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    doesn't ADS-B 2020 compliance require filing an STC under a 337?
     
  30. Ray Eaker

    Ray Eaker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yep. That was my point, though I think uAvionics will iron out their issues and the wire will eventually not be necessary.
     
  31. Ray Eaker

    Ray Eaker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It depends on the hardware involved. Someone that has a certified navigator for the WAAS out signal (e.g. GNS-430W) can install a capable ADS-B out transponder and tie them together with just a logbook entry and transponder check.

    EDIT: Correction, thanks to Tom, below. The FAA, for whatever reason, seems to think the installation of a wire is a major modification. I suspect this is just there way of tracking ADS-B installations.

    https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipad...B_Out-In_Installation_Tech_Paper(9-25-17).pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  32. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    You know, now that you mention it, this is one case where I'm probably willing to gamble on the cheap but crappy solution. The labor savings alone on them working out the kinks while I fly around telling ATC "my bad brah, lemme 'recycle' tee hee" is incentive enough, since I have zero respect for the merits of the ASDB-out mandate in the first place. Well that, and the fact I abhor avionics costs; I didn't enter the avocation in order to spend all my play money just to fiddle with nerd @ss electronics (which is also why I would make a terrible airline FO but that's for another day...).

    The other thing I potentially like about this solution is that if I get rid of the plane after 2020 I can easily yank the thing at no cost and put it on the next mistake. :D
     
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  33. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I do not think this is accurate.....read the memo on pairing ADS-B devices. When the transponder is using an approved GPS source....that is pairing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  34. Ray Eaker

    Ray Eaker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Can you clarify what part is not accurate? I have done a couple "ADS-B" installs in aircraft that already had a GNS-430W via the aforementioned method of pulling an old transponder out and installing a new, ES model. One wire from the 430W to the transponder and you are done. Another case would be an aircraft that has a Garmin 330S transponder, which can be sent in for the ES upgrade and slid back into the panel. Add the serial connection and you are again done with a logbook entry.
     
  35. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    the act of pairing the transponder with an approved source requires submitting a 337....then the report requires submitting a 337 also. Both of those require an IA sign off.

    Which of the Garmin 2020 ADS-B installs do not have an STC tied to them?....I believe they all do.

    Based on the policy memo (reference earlier)....."....all ADS-B Out installations must be treated as (at a minimum) a major alteration."
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
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  36. Ray Eaker

    Ray Eaker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks for the links. I stand corrected and contacted the IA with which I was working. He confirmed the 337s were submitted but I wasn't previously aware. I primarily work in the experimental world but few in my area care to touch wires :D

    There is also a newer, 2017 PDF from the FAA that better explains the requirements than the 2016 memo.
     
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  37. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    So are you filing a 337 for installing ADS-B out via an OEM (aircraft) service bulletin?
     
  38. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I'm using the Garmin STCs as data....and following the memo as a template for verbiage.
     
  39. aggie06

    aggie06 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Garmin only has a Mooney STC for the GDL 82 I thought? Even if it is more extensive, it doesn’t cover my 182RG.

    Uavionix is saying no 337 is required on their solution. Remains to be seen but if true, I bet you see IAs walking around the North 40 making sure you installed the light correctly and handing out logbook entries. That’s what I’d do at least. Lot of money to made quickly doing that.
     
  40. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018