A trend of First Officers not wanting to be Captains

A good friend of mine stayed an FO for many years longer than he had to. Why? He was living at his preferred base, didn't have to commute, got the schedule he wanted, made enough money, and therefore was able to pursue other interests.
 
Absolutley! There is a cost to the lifestyle. I stayed as a senior international widebody FO for a long time when I could have been a junior domestic narrow body CA. The total change in lifestyle was not worth the effort. AND....pickup a trip occasionally to make extra money. Be creative and you could pull down the similar pay. Lots more to it than than. Bid with a check airman, and get your trip bought for training. either take the extra time off to go fishing, or pick up a trip and get paid for both, your choice. When somebody wants a decision ......"Count the stripes". Fo has three on each shoulder. "I dont care..........ask the Capt"! When the office calls, "ask the capt". When called to do the dance on the chiefs pilots carpet, "I don't know, I'm only the FO, ask the capt."
8 days at home, cummute to work, OR...........18 days at home and pick your trips. Pretty easy choice. the list goes on forever.
Only the big ego's choose to fly as a junior reserve Capt.
For many years most airlines had an "up or out clause" in their contracts. When your number came up, you had to bid Capt, no matter how bad life would be. Over the years that got removed. But the mistick stuck for a while. But then again, in those days, part of being a Capt was being difficult on FO's. So becoming "king" was very good. With CCC that pretty much went way. So now senior FO's have a much better life than junior capt's with not much financial hit.
 
@Daniel Millican and Christy Wong did a podcast ("taking off" #18) like a week ago where she explains her decision to stick as a FO. I had never heard of that strategy, so I found it fascinating. The way she described it made total sense.
 
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Clip4 said:
Why is this a bad thing? There are many professions where people opt not to progress to higher positions for various reasons including work hours, loss of overtime pay, relocation, or increased responsiblitilities.
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Because the airline’s bottom line is affected if they can’t find enough people willing to be “promoted.”
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because the airline’s bottom line is affected if they can’t find enough people willing to be “promoted.”
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They just need to make the jump in position more attractive to potential captains and they’ll have all the people they need. Law of supply and demand.
 
My flight instructor was a life long FO for quality of life. He only upgraded to captain his final few years to take advantage of the captain retirement pay. I have friends that plan to be life long regional captains for the same reason.
 
I’ll take the sky king seat all day, any day, and twice on Thursday. When that cabin door closes, you are mine until that fuel gauge reads empty.
 
Seems like this would be less of a problem if they used positional seniority rather than absolute seniority. Because while the FO that holds off on upgrading creates an opportunity for a less senior FO to upgrade early, eventually that hold off will eventually upgrade, and the FO who upgraded early will still be junior when they're both CAs. So essentially, you can upgrade early, but you'll pull reserve for a heck of a lot longer than waiting.
 
Could be like one regional I’m aware of that had a 20% success rate on upgrade training/checking.
 
Bill said:
They just need to make the jump in position more attractive to potential captains and they’ll have all the people they need. Law of supply and demand.
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I'm 9% in my seat (737 FO). For the August bid, I'd be 68% in the Captain's seat. That would mean 3 or 4 fewer days off per month and having to fly red-eyes, which I don't like. Lots more money, too, of course, but the house is paid off and retirement and college funded.

The pilots with young kids, big mortgages, and college to fund are the ones who upgrade early.
 
Brad Z said:
Seems like this would be less of a problem if they used positional seniority rather than absolute seniority. Because while the FO that holds off on upgrading creates an opportunity for a less senior FO to upgrade early, eventually that hold off will eventually upgrade, and the FO who upgraded early will still be junior when they're both CAs. So essentially, you can upgrade early, but you'll pull reserve for a heck of a lot longer than waiting.
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Unless you're saying something different than I am reading that seems like it is the problem. Why would I as a FO who has say 20 years in, and always get the routes I want, jump to left seat and be at the bottom of the pecking order?
 
Same boat. I’m an FO on the 330 at about 50% seniority in that seat. If I went to the left seat of anything narrow body I’d be more senior in seat (as senior as 25% on the 220) but I’d have to commute to more (shorter) trips, early shows, multi leg days, crappy layovers, reroutes galore and work at least three more days per month. No thanks.
 
I have two friends (one at SW and one at Delta) who are FO's. Both have zero desire to move to the left seat. One has a seniority number that pretty much lets him pick his schedule. The other is ex-Air Force and is perfectly happy letting someone else take the responsibility. And he's moving up the seniority list pretty quick too.
 
This wouldn’t fly at a regional. Both regionals I was at forced upgrades when the FOs started doing this. I flew with many CAs that didn’t want to be a CA nor had the experience but management said upgrade or leave.
 
Same thing in law enforcement. Our patrol deputies picked shifts by seniority. For my last few years I was senior enough to fill out one line on the shift pick form and leave the other seven shifts blank. When a deputy chief asked why I wasn’t taking the sergeant’s test, it was a simple answer: Nothing in it for me. In patrol, I stay on the 4/10 schedule and have the shift and days off that I want. By getting promoted, I’ll go to graveyard with opposite days off for a year, and then three years on a weekday 9-5 doing something I have no interest in, plus lose the swing shift bonus.

He said that wasn’t a good reason. Sorry, chief, I love(d) the job and liked the department, but not enough to upend my personal life over it. (Note: I was not on “blue welfare” - stayed active right through the final day, always learning new things and staying up to date, worked hard for our community.)

We called it PFL - Patrolman For Life. Sounds like airlines have the same deal - FOFL?
 
This isn't the only industry this happens in. My son is Firefighter. He's worked up to engineer and that's as high as he wants to go. They tell him he'd be a good Captain and want him to do it. Problem is they'll reassign him to a station that needs a captain and that could be anywhere. It's the LA County FD which covers a lot ground. He could end up with well over a 2 hour commute. And Captains get a lot of 'recall' aka, overtime. He's got 3 kids, 10, 13, 15. Maybe he'll do it when they leave the nest.
Don't know if this is still a thing with Controllers, but it was when I was working at LA Center many moons ago, a lot of Supervisors were quitting being Supervisors and going back to the boards. It was a you get all the responsibility but none of the authority thing. So much as just look at a Controller cross eyed and they're filing harassment charges. It got to the point they were refusing to let Supervisors downgrade. Their only way out was to quit.
 
luvflyin said:
This isn't the only industry this happens in. My son is Firefighter. He's worked up to engineer and that's as high as he wants to go. They tell him he'd be a good Captain and want him to do it. Problem is they'll reassign him to a station that needs a captain and that could be anywhere. It's the LA County FD which covers a lot ground. He could end up with well over a 2 hour commute. And Captains get a lot of 'recall' aka, overtime. He's got 3 kids, 10, 13, 15. Maybe he'll do it when they leave the nest.
Don't know if this is still a thing with Controllers, but it was when I was working at LA Center many moons ago, a lot of Supervisors were quitting being Supervisors and going back to the boards. It was a you get all the responsibility but none of the authority thing. So much as just look at a Controller cross eyed and they're filing harassment charges. It got to the point they were refusing to let Supervisors downgrade. Their only way out was to quit.
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Little bit the opposite now. Line controllers are so stuck in one spot with little ability to move to a facility they want, they are upgrading to supervisor or taking a detail to move and get a more regular schedule versus mandatory overtime.
 
Larry in TN said:
I'm 9% in my seat (737 FO). For the August bid, I'd be 68% in the Captain's seat. That would mean 3 or 4 fewer days off per month and having to fly red-eyes, which I don't like. Lots more money, too, of course, but the house is paid off and retirement and college funded.

The pilots with young kids, big mortgages, and college to fund are the ones who upgrade early.
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If you could move left and retain the 9%, would you jump?
 
luvflyin said:
This isn't the only industry this happens in. My son is Firefighter. He's worked up to engineer and that's as high as he wants to go. They tell him he'd be a good Captain and want him to do it. Problem is they'll reassign him to a station that needs a captain and that could be anywhere. It's the LA County FD which covers a lot ground. He could end up with well over a 2 hour commute. And Captains get a lot of 'recall' aka, overtime. He's got 3 kids, 10, 13, 15.
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Same thing in engineering. Over the years at Boeing, I worked with several folks who had previously been managers. Pay's better, stock options, but no paid overtime plus potential for undesired transfers plus having to fight the bureaucratic nonsense of such a big company. I ended up being the lead engineer for one of my ex-managers. He was cool, though, and we got on just fine.

You wonder how much of the military "up or out" mentality infects jobs like airline pilots, cops, firefighters, etc. Never had ANY urge to move up to management, was happy with my engineering work.

Ron "I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round" Wanttaja
 
I’m a 50% domestic narrow body captain, and happy as a clam.
 
wanttaja said:
You wonder how much of the military "up or out" mentality infects jobs like airline pilots, cops, firefighters, etc.
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Law enforcement is heavily infected with that mentality. Most law enforcement management are ladder climbers and go into the career with ambitions of promoting as high as possible. They tend to transfer around a lot to broaden their experience, not because they’re fascinated with all those different assignments, but because it’ll make them look better at promotion time. They often become myopic and the higher they promote, the more they look down on those who don’t.
 
luvflyin said:
This isn't the only industry this happens in. My son is Firefighter. He's worked up to engineer and that's as high as he wants to go. They tell him he'd be a good Captain and want him to do it. Problem is they'll reassign him to a station that needs a captain and that could be anywhere. It's the LA County FD which covers a lot ground. He could end up with well over a 2 hour commute. And Captains get a lot of 'recall' aka, overtime. He's got 3 kids, 10, 13, 15. Maybe he'll do it when they leave the nest.
Don't know if this is still a thing with Controllers, but it was when I was working at LA Center many moons ago, a lot of Supervisors were quitting being Supervisors and going back to the boards. It was a you get all the responsibility but none of the authority thing. So much as just look at a Controller cross eyed and they're filing harassment charges. It got to the point they were refusing to let Supervisors downgrade. Their only way out was to quit.
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My brother was a CIC and was offered sup but never accepted. Just didn’t want the extra aggravation and they hardly ever got to work traffic. Had a friend who worked ATl TRACON as a sup and he regretted it. Again, dealing with all the people issues and hardly getting time on position. Think he said he got 4 hrs a month on approach. Just not worth the extra money.
 
I am in completely different industry, manufacturing. While there has always been some of this come up in succession planning/talent management, the last couple years we have seen an increase. To the point where we realized that we need to spend some time on how we manage this change. In the past, it was just a one off situation where someone viewed with promotion potential openly voiced no interest and it wasn't really issue as there were other internal options. It is changing. I'm curious if this is a long term shift or short term shift due to a very positive job market for past few years. Lots of theories, time will tell.
 
I always cringe at the subtext of this language, where the repudiation of money over life-compatible schedules is viewed with skepticism and passive aggressive contempt. If there's any "infection" here to lambast, it's the protestant work ethic. Digressing.

I will defend the military Reserves wrt 'up or out'. Which is to say, that dynamic is not as pervasive here. As a career Reservist, I have been allowed to largely stay a technician (not in the formal term used by Air Reserve Technicians since I'm AGR, but in the same spirit of intent). I'm taking a paycut for sure, but RegAF certainly was not going to allow me that discretion paycut or no paycut. They very actively campaign against such freedom by their chattel; they find it anathema to commissioned officership. They'll throw money at you all day, but soft benefits in lieu of? Never. They'll dismiss (officer equivalent of discharge for enlisted, for the non-dod speaking in the crowd) you first.

Granted, the slippery slope to that allocution is of course, pressing-to-test and going the Army route and making usaf pilots WOs. That wouldn't fly in the usaf, since the income delta for fixed wing guys to the airlines would be even higher than it is for RW guys (pre-RTP anyways) and civilian turbine rotor jobs. So the airlines effectively present an income floor that requires commissioned officer money to float manning on the .mil side, especially tacair. And even that is not yielding the retention they want (but that's for another thread).

And lest I be accused of hypocrisy, no I would not do my particular job for WO money, homesteading schedules or no homesteading schedules.

From where I sit, United tried to ameliorate the situation by opening up MCO and LAS. And I think their pulse on that situation was correct. From where I sit they have more of a "pilots don't want to/can't afford to live in the Coastal metros" problem, more than a "[relative] junior airline schedules are trash" for home life. And I believe both statements are true independent of each other btw.

If United refuses to institute up or out, then that's on the airline (or kudos on the union for securing that fence, if indeed that is somehow a CBA negotiated stipulation, I'm not read up on that). I don't see the median major FOs being in a position to replace that income if faced with termination otherwise. Part of the achilles heel of grey collar work is not having any income-parity options when that seniority number or medical vanishes.
 
NoBShere said:
I am in completely different industry, manufacturing. While there has always been some of this come up in succession planning/talent management, the last couple years we have seen an increase. To the point where we realized that we need to spend some time on how we manage this change. In the past, it was just a one off situation where someone viewed with promotion potential openly voiced no interest and it wasn't really issue as there were other internal options. It is changing. I'm curious if this is a long term shift or short term shift due to a very positive job market for past few years. Lots of theories, time will tell.
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Normally when I've seen this come up in Manufacturing or even Services industry, it's generally a mid-level salaried position and the person who declines the upgrade to a Manager position. Often it's because that person is getting close to retirement and doesn't want the increased hassle of dealing with employee issues where the increase in pay grade doesn't swing the needle enough for them to deal with it. I have seen many people decline Supervisor/Lead positions because they were perfectly happy being able to clock in/out and had no desire for advancement. I actually love that they have that much self-awareness that they don't want to go into a role where they wouldn't fit. There is often a culture (applies to business in general) that you take your best line employees and make them supervisors/managers, despite them not necessarily having the best skill set to manage and/or deal with employees as subordinates. Taking your best sales guy and make him a sales manager sometimes means your sales goes down because the guy was better at reaching out to customers than managing a team of salespersons.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Normally when I've seen this come up in Manufacturing or even Services industry, it's generally a mid-level salaried position and the person who declines the upgrade to a Manager position. Often it's because that person is getting close to retirement and doesn't want the increased hassle of dealing with employee issues where the increase in pay grade doesn't swing the needle enough for them to deal with it. I have seen many people decline Supervisor/Lead positions because they were perfectly happy being able to clock in/out and had no desire for advancement. I actually love that they have that much self-awareness that they don't want to go into a role where they wouldn't fit. There is often a culture (applies to business in general) that you take your best line employees and make them supervisors/managers, despite them not necessarily having the best skill set to manage and/or deal with employees as subordinates. Taking your best sales guy and make him a sales manager sometimes means your sales goes down because the guy was better at reaching out to customers than managing a team of salespersons.
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Agreed. The surprise to me was seeing the early career professionals (2 to 5 years out of college) openly stating I don't want a promotion. Again there was always a couple, usually the later career individuals as you mentioned. I do recall a few DINKs that over the years that had the perspective of I didn't have kids so I could pursue other interests, not work 60 hours or babysit adults. LOL.
 
Bill said:
They just need to make the jump in position more attractive to potential captains and they’ll have all the people they need. Law of supply and demand.
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It's not their decision to make. Everything personnel at the airline is the result of a bargaining process.

This is United griping about a contract they signed.
 
Bill said:
If you could move left and retain the 9%, would you jump?
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Yeah, I like unicorns and rainbows, too.

I'm 9% in my 737 right seat with ~8.5 yrs seniority. 9% in the left seat is probably over 30 years seniority. I've flying with a 25yr Captain now, he's 25%.


hindsight2020 said:
If United refuses to institute up or out, then that's on the airline (or kudos on the union for securing that fence, if indeed that is somehow a CBA negotiated stipulation, I'm not read up on that).
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They would have to negotiate such a provision into the CBA. They didn't try. We wouldn't agree to it if they did.

Forcing someone to upgrade who doesn't want to upgrade is a bad idea.
 
wanttaja said:
Same thing in engineering. Over the years at Boeing, I worked with several folks who had previously been managers. Pay's better, stock options, but no paid overtime plus potential for undesired transfers plus having to fight the bureaucratic nonsense of such a big company. I ended up being the lead engineer for one of my ex-managers. He was cool, though, and we got on just fine.

You wonder how much of the military "up or out" mentality infects jobs like airline pilots, cops, firefighters, etc. Never had ANY urge to move up to management, was happy with my engineering work.

Ron "I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round" Wanttaja
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I don't mind management for the most part, but at my last company I turned down a few opportunities to move to the management track. I worked for a bank, and management reorgs were frequent and brutal. I kept my job while tens of thousands lost theirs over the years, including most of the managers I had ever worked for. Being a manager paid better and had better bonuses, but that all stops if you get laid off -- and the first 2-3 layers of management (we had seven) had big fat targets on their backs.

That said, I happily accepted every promotion in the technical track... just means you're more valuable. Senior engineer? Team lead? You betcha, pal.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Normally when I've seen this come up in Manufacturing or even Services industry, it's generally a mid-level salaried position and the person who declines the upgrade to a Manager position. Often it's because that person is getting close to retirement and doesn't want the increased hassle of dealing with employee issues where the increase in pay grade doesn't swing the needle enough for them to deal with it. I have seen many people decline Supervisor/Lead positions because they were perfectly happy being able to clock in/out and had no desire for advancement. I actually love that they have that much self-awareness that they don't want to go into a role where they wouldn't fit. There is often a culture (applies to business in general) that you take your best line employees and make them supervisors/managers, despite them not necessarily having the best skill set to manage and/or deal with employees as subordinates. Taking your best sales guy and make him a sales manager sometimes means your sales goes down because the guy was better at reaching out to customers than managing a team of salespersons.
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It's going to get worse. The younger generation look @ this much differently. They're not as interested in 'advancement' as they are in 'contentment'. It will get harder to find someone to work 36 hours straight in a few years.
 
I think this is partly a generational change. Some Gen X have come to realize that they do not have to be defined by their career. And this has spread even more to the Gen Y and millennials.
I have nieces, and my kids all are very much aware of balancing work and life at a younger age than I ever did.

The result for me is I think, a lot of industries will have to effectively remove a lot of the seniority system, cash is no longer king, and soft benefits have become critical.

Tim
 
Mxfarm said:
It's going to get worse. The younger generation look @ this much differently. They're not as interested in 'advancement' as they are in 'contentment'. It will get harder to find someone to work 36 hours straight in a few years.
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It’s not even that. If I were to make the jump, I’d want to maintain a certain schedule with my kids. That’s more important than pay, even though I’d definitely want to eventually make captain.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because the airline’s bottom line is affected if they can’t find enough people willing to be “promoted.”
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Sounds like the business needs to adapt to changing labor conditions. Funny how some always argue labor needs to adapt to the needs of the business but not the other way around.
 
Mxfarm said:
It's going to get worse. The younger generation look @ this much differently. They're not as interested in 'advancement' as they are in 'contentment'. It will get harder to find someone to work 36 hours straight in a few years.
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I deal with it every month. One of my manufacturing plants runs rubber/heat presses and other related processes that are often in un-cooled buildings, or in the case of the heat presses, the A/C being pumped in is only so effective in a shop with 100 presses working at 200+ degrees 24-hrs a day. They typically work 4-12hr shifts, and many of the tenured employees love working 5 or 6 days a week to pick up the overtime. We go through 4-6 employees a week this time of year (via temp agencies) because they don't want to work 12hr shifts, and they certainly don't want to do it in anything but a fully climate-controlled facility. It's tough work, but the younger set seems to be very averse to it, so we have to be creative in how we arrange the schedules and such. Turnover rate is typical of the industry, but it takes a toll on productivity when you are training 6-8 new employees every week just to have half of them wash out in the first few days and 8/10 in the first 3 months.
 
EdFred said:
Unless you're saying something different than I am reading that seems like it is the problem. Why would I as a FO who has say 20 years in, and always get the routes I want, jump to left seat and be at the bottom of the pecking order?
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For more pay and authority, mostly. If you're at a regional looking to move up, more CA time will make you more attractive to a mainline carrier, all things equal.
 
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