A "Puppy Mill" Goes to Court

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farmrjohn

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Not exactly a glowing picture of operations for UAL UAL Law Suit I wonder if other "puppy mills" will face a similar fate now that things have slowed down?
 
schmookeeg said:
You gotta wonder if this suit would have had any traction against a no-name school. Methinks United's pockets seemed attractive for a lawyer to pick.
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There have been a few of the suits against "for profit" schools.. and rightfully so.. some of the admissions people are worse than used car salespeople.

Larry in TN said:
I wonder if they have attracted some students who aren't sufficiently motivated or prepared to succeed in this type of program.
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You have a good point there... my kid is trying to get into the nursing program at a our local university.. He was told he needs 500 plus hours as a CNA along with all the lower division perquisites prior to applying. When I spoke to the assistant dean about the CNA requirement she noted that "after doing the scut work for a while and they still want to be a nurse... then yes we want them... Thankfully our community college has a pretty well known program too, but the requirement is the same...
 
Ventucky Red said:
You have a good point there
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The school is doing a lot of outreach with its recruitment efforts. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that when you are recruiting people who were not already motivated to become pilots then your drop out/wash out rate may be higher. Students who are highly self-motivated will have the highest rate of success in a difficult program.
 
Larry in TN said:
The school is doing a lot of outreach with its recruitment efforts. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that when you are recruiting people who were not already motivated to become pilots then your drop out/wash out rate may be higher. Students who are highly self-motivated will have the highest rate of success in a difficult program.
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From what I understood about the program there is a bunch of testing that is done with the application, and after the application is submitted that are designed to evaluate aptitude for aviation, cognitive abilities, psychomotor skills, and personality traits. If the get through this, then they are invited to a virtual behavioral interview, which further evaluates their suitability for the program.

One would would think with a battery of test like this they could weed out future baristas pretty quickly... agree?

From what I am seeing United Aviate Academy screwed up with mis-management and screwed some students in the process. Time for them to open the checkbook...
 
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Ventucky Red said:
One would would think with a battery of test like this they could weed out future baristas pretty quickly... agree?
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I don't know. The student still needs to put in the work. I've never seen a flight school, from small GA school to nationally known university, that didn't have a significant drop out rate.

None of us know the facts here, just the allegations. Those who dropped out/washed out may not have the most objective view.
 
Embry Riddle at Daytona had this problem too. Not enough instructors. Sometimes 2 to 3 weeks between flights. Their solution was to not let freshmen fly during their first year.
 
I think a lot of these students looked at the 2021-23 hiring landscape and got an unrealistic view of aviation. That was arguably one of the best times in history to get hired at a major airline. They expect 1 year zero to hero, 1 year flying RJs, then off to their major airline of choice, when in reality, that was an anomaly and they unfortunately missed that boat.
 
Larry in TN said:
The school is doing a lot of outreach with its recruitment efforts. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that when you are recruiting people who were not already motivated to become pilots then your drop out/wash out rate may be higher. Students who are highly self-motivated will have the highest rate of success in a difficult program.
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It’s a fact jack. I worked with a flight attendant that was accepted into the program. It wasn’t free up front but the contract was essentially you show up, we train you, If you succeed and make it to the legacy all the student debt is forgiven.

The first step was to study and pass the private written in an unstructured self study process. The FA walked away because they perceived the program to be too hard and no support provided. I along with at minimum two other pilots offered to help prep for the test. Nope. Just walked away.

I would have committed a felony for an opportunity like they were handed when I was starting out. Hard to understand the mind set. As you say. Recruiting people that didn’t have the desire independently introduces more opportunities for wash out.
 
Ventucky Red said:
One would would think with a battery of test like this they could weed out future baristas pretty quickly... agree?
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From what I see out there in the training pool, my bet would be that they were selecting for "least barista" out of a pool of "sub baristas", not sifting only-yeagers from otherwise capable candidate broth :)
 
I mean, optimism bias has always been peak FAFO behavior, but nobody listens. Oh well, in the words of Canada Bill Jones: "It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money"....
 
I wish the litigants the best of luck and hope some securities firms take a look at all this too.

Some of these airlines will hold the paper on the loans

The training tends to be very bottom of the barrel

The rates are nearly laughable

If people could bankrupt out of education loans these programs would not exist

Pushing a 100k loan on a kid who might not even be old enough to drink, one they can never get out of, knowing how long and hard the road will be before they even make a income they’d admit to in mixed company, that’s cool

Giving some random off Facebook a 20% interest hard money loan for 5 grand and holding the title to their jet ski as collateral, everyone loses their minds lol

These types of programs need to just go away, there literally is no saving grace to these places
 
“Dozens of former student pilots who say”. Why isn’t thousands? Because the dozens are the ones who just figured out they won’t be getting an airline job for maybe 5 years because the boom is over and they are upside down in debt and they got to the party too late. Nobody pushed the loans, people willingly did this to themselves.


While a shortage of training aircraft and CFIs plagued the training world since the pandemic ended, the flight schools actually did a descent job completing the huge number of students who flocked into training programs wanting high paying airline jobs. The latest hiring boom was a once in a generation event - maybe a once in multiple generation event and students today are still entering flight schools believing the boom isn’t over or will reignite.

I tell everyone entering professional pilot training today not to cry when they are replaced by a robot long before they can think of retirement.
 
Clip4 said:
“Dozens of former student pilots who say”. Why isn’t thousands? Because the dozens are the ones who just figured out they won’t be getting an airline job for maybe 5 years because the boom is over and they are upside down in debt and they got to the party too late. Nobody pushed the loans, people willingly did this to themselves.


While a shortage of training aircraft and CFIs plagued the training world since the pandemic ended, the flight schools actually did a descent job completing the huge number of students who flocked into training programs wanting high paying airline jobs. The latest hiring boom was a once in a generation event - maybe a once in multiple generation event and students today are still entering flight schools believing the boom isn’t over or will reignite.
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Legal messes? Nobody’s got the cash or the stomach for that kind of headache.


Folks here done even want to deal with unloading their own plane? So what makes you think some kid’s gonna waltz into that chaos with a grin?

There’s never been a drought of opportunities. Never.

Before the COVID circus rolled through, there were killer gigs. After? Still plenty. ****ty ones too, always have been, always will be.


If someone’s got the fire in their gut to chase it, and they’re a real pilot not some “captain in training” wannabe they’ll fire up Google, do the bare minimum of homework, and see aviation’s still a damn wild ride worth taking.
 
Roller said:
If someone’s got the fire in their gut to chase it, and they’re a real pilot not some “captain in training” wannabe they’ll fire up Google, do the bare minimum of homework, and see aviation’s still a damn wild ride worth taking.
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This is the one that gets me. It feels like every 20-year-old who wants to be a pilot sees the "dream" as shuttling 150-400 people around in an airborne bus, flying the most mundane of flight profiles to prevent panicking Ma and Pa Kettle in row 28. Oh and who could forget about the paperwork, the bureaucracy, having every tiny detail of your work analyzed by the very machine you are controlling, and having it tattle on you if it didn't like something.

Not that airline jobs should be anything but this. Their purpose is reproducible, uncompromising safety. It just seems kind of tedious and boring. It's something stable to do before retirement and after having done the job that gave you your stories for the hangar.
 
traumamed said:
This is the one that gets me. It feels like every 20-year-old who wants to be a pilot sees the "dream" as shuttling 150-400 people around in an airborne bus, flying the most mundane of flight profiles to prevent panicking Ma and Pa Kettle in row 28. Oh and who could forget about the paperwork, the bureaucracy, having every tiny detail of your work analyzed by the very machine you are controlling, and having it tattle on you if it didn't like something.

Not that airline jobs should be anything but this. Their purpose is reproducible, uncompromising safety. It just seems kind of tedious and boring. It's something stable to do before retirement and after having done the job that gave you your stories for the hangar.
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I agree

I fly a wide body now, but it took my a while to be willing to get here, sometimes I still wonder if in would have been happier staying flying charter.

In many ways I think 135, 91, DPE work have a better QOL than 121, just depends on the person

That said I didn’t get scammed into a “cadet” program and I always try to talk to folks who want to get into the industry on tips, one of them is say NO to ATP/cadet/etc
 
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Larry in TN said:
This month I was "bored" in Times Square and Cancun and this weekend will be bored in Punta Cana. Next month is several Punta Canas and Arubas.
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Haha I'm sorry for your boredom, it sounds rough.

Hopefully I didn't come across as disparaging toward the airline folk. Not my intent. The question is whether a 20-year-old zero-time student really wants the seat at one of the Legacy 3 because they love flying, or because they love the idea of a half-million-dollar paycheck before age 40. The fact that so many of them are "airline or bust" is telling.

I see it in medicine all the time. There are so many med students who clearly have no real interest in the job and they barely try to hide it. I wish there was a way to make them see how miserable they are going to be 10 years from now. They think making half a mil or appeasing mommy and daddy or putting a couple fancy letters behind their name is going to make up for how much they don't actually like what they are going to have to do 8-12 hours a day, 12-20 days a month for 20+ years.
 
jordane93 said:
I think a lot of these students looked at the 2021-23 hiring landscape and got an unrealistic view of aviation. That was arguably one of the best times in history to get hired at a major airline. They expect 1 year zero to hero, 1 year flying RJs, then off to their major airline of choice, when in reality, that was an anomaly and they unfortunately missed that boat.
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If the plaintiffs came to that expectation on their own, then they should be out of luck. If that expectation was sold to them, it will be a different story. Express warranties are difficult to disclaim.
 
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traumamed said:
The question is whether a 20-year-old zero-time student really wants
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How many 20 year olds really know what they want? Some, but not many, in my experience.

There's always been a high attrition rate in this career. It takes a lot of work to succeed and that weeds out most of those who don't have a passion for it.
 
Pushing a 100k loan on a kid who might not even be old enough to drink, one they can never get out of, knowing how long and hard the road will be before they even make a income they’d admit to in mixed company, that’s cool
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Its that old adage should we be saving people from themselves but there is precedence against this type of behavior i.e Ursury laws (payday loans) and I agree that if these kids could bankrupt their ways out of these loans this would stop.
We have the same problem in Veterinary medicine in fact so bad that the government created IBR repayment plans for this type of problem. All that did is just pass the buck down the line and this has created basically a new age "indentured servitude" to the government.
I know some law schools got sued as well
 
traumamed said:
Haha I'm sorry for your boredom, it sounds rough.

Hopefully I didn't come across as disparaging toward the airline folk. Not my intent. The question is whether a 20-year-old zero-time student really wants the seat at one of the Legacy 3 because they love flying, or because they love the idea of a half-million-dollar paycheck before age 40. The fact that so many of them are "airline or bust" is telling.

I see it in medicine all the time. There are so many med students who clearly have no real interest in the job and they barely try to hide it. I wish there was a way to make them see how miserable they are going to be 10 years from now. They think making half a mil or appeasing mommy and daddy or putting a couple fancy letters behind their name is going to make up for how much they don't actually like what they are going to have to do 8-12 hours a day, 12-20 days a month for 20+ years.
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Lots of the CAs making that half mil also don’t really enjoy flying as much as a paycheck and “travel”

I’d wager <20% of my company has anything to do with aviation once they block in.

Many will do it into retirement, even our non aviator type pilots still find it better than many of the office type jobs that might get close to that paycheck, add the time off we get, roaming around the world, even if you actually hate flight it’s still a good gig.

francisco collazos said:
Its that old adage should we be saving people from themselves but there is precedence against this type of behavior i.e Ursury laws (payday loans) and I agree that if these kids could bankrupt their ways out of these loans this would stop.
We have the same problem in Veterinary medicine in fact so bad that the government created IBR repayment plans for this type of problem. All that did is just pass the buck down the line and this has created basically a new age "indentured servitude" to the government.
I know some law schools got sued as well
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I am all for free market, but I hate scammers, especially when they take advantage of the very old or young who don’t have the mental facility to protect themself

Agree, if people could bankrupt out of these loans it would vastly improve things, make them like a auto loan, fixed
 
The AP is a garbage agency.. the 'report' is so vague on key things.

I question the intelligence of those 'students'. This quote proves my point:

'During her eighth flight, she said, her instructor was a fellow student of the program.'

So the school was dumb enough to let a NON-CFI rated instructor to teach and sign a logbook? If this were true a simple glance at the log book by the local FSDO would shut that place down, and they would have civil penalties already. More likely it was the very common practice of the school hired a CFI who was a student building hours. Two VERY different things.

Here's another 'you have no idea WTF' quote '. 'It also alleges that students were sometimes evaluated by instructors who were not pilots themselves.' There are no FAA requirements to have a certificate to teach ground or even give a verbal evaluation. When I was at ERAU one of my math classes was taught by a 'student'... he was getting his Masters Degree at ERAU in aerodynamics... and not a pilot.

Now was this flight instruction or ground/classroom???
 
I chat GPT'd the following: 20 airplanes, 200 students and CFIs can only fly 8 hrs a day.

Taking the 100 hours inspection into consideration (I would assume they had a progressive schedule that would lead to even less MX downtime) and no other maintenance issues each student would be able to book 16 hours fo flight time per month.

Not sure what a Pt 141 school advertises but 2 hours of flight twice a week sounds pretty thin.

At 400 students that's only 8 hours a month.
 
Larry in TN said:
How many 20 year olds really know what they want? Some, but not many, in my experience.

There's always been a high attrition rate in this career. It takes a lot of work to succeed and that weeds out most of those who don't have a passion for it.
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Not just aviation. It's applicable to all fields that require extensive and highly technical training (ok, so lawyers aren't that technical but the analogy is true) that too many students come in at the beginning thinking that just doing the time will get them to the big bucks. I see this in computer science at all schools other than MIT and CalTech. I've got college freshmen that don't understand how to organize the laptop desktop, forget about organizing their life.
 
pfarber said:
The AP is a garbage agency.. the 'report' is so vague on key things.

I question the intelligence of those 'students'. This quote proves my point:

'During her eighth flight, she said, her instructor was a fellow student of the program.'

So the school was dumb enough to let a NON-CFI rated instructor to teach and sign a logbook? If this were true a simple glance at the log book by the local FSDO would shut that place down, and they would have civil penalties already. More likely it was the very common practice of the school hired a CFI who was a student building hours. Two VERY different things.

Here's another 'you have no idea WTF' quote '. 'It also alleges that students were sometimes evaluated by instructors who were not pilots themselves.' There are no FAA requirements to have a certificate to teach ground or even give a verbal evaluation. When I was at ERAU one of my math classes was taught by a 'student'... he was getting his Masters Degree at ERAU in aerodynamics... and not a pilot.

Now was this flight instruction or ground/classroom???
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They might be allowed to teach, but they can't sign off anything. I'm currently working on my AGI so I'll be allowed to teach & signoff our CAP cadets to take the written. Unfortunately, I won't be allowed to teach ground at my university because they want Commercial despite I teach over in CS and understand how to teach better than most CFIs. Been doing it a lot longer, too. Oh well.
 
Lindberg said:
If the plaintiffs came to that expectation on their own, then they should be out of luck. If that expectation was sold to them, it will be a different story. Express warranties are difficult to disclaim.
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Sounds like the Aviate academy has the same problems of every other big box school (most flights schools even?) Too many students, not enough planes, not enough instructors, etc. I’m sure they advertised something like zero to hero in XX months with a big, fat asterisk at the end of it. Sure, you can get everything done in a year but scheduling, maintenance, weather, life, etc gets in the way. Should be interesting to see what happens
 
Roller said:
I agree

I fly a wide body now, but it took my a while to be willing to get here, sometimes I still wonder if in would have been happier staying flying charter.

In many ways I think 135, 91, DPE work have a better QOL than 121, just depends on the person

That said I didn’t get scammed into a “cadet” program and I always try to talk to folks who want to get into the industry on tips, one of them is say NO to ATP/cadet/etc
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I am glad you didn’t get scammed, but there are a lot of people who went the professional pilot program route, completed their training, got the hours teaching in the same school they attended and got quickly vacuumed up into the right seat over the last 4 years.

Aviation is a boom and bust and the first thing to go bust when the economy turn sour. If you are caught with paying loans for an occupation you can’t get hired for, times are going to be rough. Over the last 45 years there have been 4 periods that getting a pilot job was next to impossible. The next one is likely occurring in the next 12 months.
 
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Clip4 said:
I am glad you didn’t get scammed, but there are a lot of people who went the professional pilot program route, completed their training, got the hours teaching in the same school they attended and got quickly vacuumed up into the right seat over the last 4 years.

Aviation is a boom and bust and the first thing to go bust when the economy turn sour. If you are caught with paying loans for an occupation you can’t get hired for, times are going to be rough. Over the last 45 years there have been 4 periods that getting a pilot job was next to impossible. The next one is likely occurring in the next 12 months.
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Not sure how “professional” those programs are, I’d say not very

Those same kids could have done the exact same thing, actually got more for less, at a flying club, indy CFI, mom and pop 61, etc and like half the price

Kids should be combining the flight training with a money making degree at a CC

Scam wise I can smell these people from 100 miles, when I called one curious about the scheme a month or so ago it took me like 3min to see the hook, it’s shame folks don’t do more arguing, negotiating, haggling these days, too much “stress” I guess, but costs em
 
traumamed said:
This is the one that gets me. It feels like every 20-year-old who wants to be a pilot sees the "dream" as shuttling 150-400 people around in an airborne bus, flying the most mundane of flight profiles to prevent panicking Ma and Pa Kettle in row 28. Oh and who could forget about the paperwork, the bureaucracy, having every tiny detail of your work analyzed by the very machine you are controlling, and having it tattle on you if it didn't like something.

Not that airline jobs should be anything but this. Their purpose is reproducible, uncompromising safety. It just seems kind of tedious and boring. It's something stable to do before retirement and after having done the job that gave you your stories for the hangar.
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I understand what you’re saying.

Often when I’m flying with an early 20’s FO I look at them and think about all the things I’ve done before this job. I’m not envious of them with the exception of seniority advancement. Kinda jealous of that a little. But I wouldn’t trade the experiences I’ve had to get the seniority they will have.
 
traumamed said:
This is the one that gets me. It feels like every 20-year-old who wants to be a pilot sees the "dream" as shuttling 150-400 people around in an airborne bus, flying the most mundane of flight profiles to prevent panicking Ma and Pa Kettle in row 28. Oh and who could forget about the paperwork, the bureaucracy, having every tiny detail of your work analyzed by the very machine you are controlling, and having it tattle on you if it didn't like something.
Click to expand...
The dream is to make a big fat paycheck while flying. I don't think they ever think about how mind-numbingly boring most of a 12+-hour flight will be when they get to that level.

traumamed said:
Not that airline jobs should be anything but this. Their purpose is reproducible, uncompromising safety. It just seems kind of tedious and boring. It's something stable to do before retirement and after having done the job that gave you your stories for the hangar.
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Yup.

traumamed said:
Hopefully I didn't come across as disparaging toward the airline folk. Not my intent. The question is whether a 20-year-old zero-time student really wants the seat at one of the Legacy 3 because they love flying, or because they love the idea of a half-million-dollar paycheck before age 40. The fact that so many of them are "airline or bust" is telling.
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If you truly love FLYING, you do crop dusting or airshows or go fly in Alaska.

I do love flying, but I also have a family to support financially and otherwise... I'm about to find out what a 7-and-7 schedule does to us. I'd like to think that I'll still be flying into lots of new places by staying 135, but being in a jet certainly knocks down the number of places I'll be able to go. No more Montauk... And probably a lot more Teterhole.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I do love flying, but I also have a family to support financially and otherwise... I'm about to find out what a 7-and-7 schedule does to us. I'd like to think that I'll still be flying into lots of new places by staying 135, but being in a jet certainly knocks down the number of places I'll be able to go. No more Montauk... And probably a lot more Teterhole.
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7-and-7 (or any similar block model) isn't your traditional banker's hours job, but a lot of people find they prefer it after making the leap. There are quite a few advantages. I have been doing block scheduling for nearly a decade, and I would never go back. It was an adjustment with the family at first, but we all came to strongly prefer it. I'm currently doing 13 on/rest of month off. I travel for work. I'm away from home 13-14 days/month, then I get the remainder of the month off, so 17ish consecutive days off. Been doing that particular schedule for over three years now. If you ever want to bounce anything off of me regarding extended blocks of work away from home, feel free to shoot me a DM.
 
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traumamed said:
7-and-7 (or any similar block model) isn't your traditional banker's hours job, but a lot of people find they prefer it after making the leap. There are quite a few advantages. I have been doing block scheduling for nearly a decade, and I would never go back. It was an adjustment with the family at first, but we all came to strongly prefer it. I'm currently doing 13 on/rest of month off. I travel for work. I'm away from home 13-14 days/month, then I get the remainder of the month off, so 17ish consecutive days off. Been doing that particular schedule for over three years now. If you ever want to bounce anything off of me regarding extended blocks of work away from home, feel free to shoot me a DM.
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You know... I'd like to hear everything from everyone who deals with this, so I started a new thread.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think they ever think about how mind-numbingly boring most of a 12+-hour flight will be when they get to that level.
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If you're doing a 12+ flight you're probably going to someplace interesting. I did a ferry flight (767) that was close to 11 hours but the vast majority of my flying is 7 hours or less per leg.

flyingcheesehead said:
If you truly love FLYING, you do crop dusting or airshows or go fly in Alaska.
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Depends on what it is you like about flying. I like flying big airplanes and doing instrument flying. I like scoring the flight plan and making position reports over HF (well, not so much to Mumbai Radio. Can't understand a word they say.) I like landing with a 30kt crosswind or with 600 RVR. I know airline pilots who built kit planes, fly float plans in Alaska or airshows in a Pitts. That flying isn't for me.

flyingcheesehead said:
I'm about to find out what a 7-and-7 schedule does to us
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Fractional? I prefer to know where I'm going ahead of time but you'll get to go to a lot of different planes, in between stops at Teterboro, of course. Not a good fit for those who aren't interested in customer service.

There's a lot of variety in the piloting profession.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I understand what you’re saying.

Often when I’m flying with an early 20’s FO I look at them and think about all the things I’ve done before this job. I’m not envious of them with the exception of seniority advancement. Kinda jealous of that a little. But I wouldn’t trade the experiences I’ve had to get the seniority they will have.
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Well then that's a well lived life, then. Excellent.
 
Roller said:
Not sure how “professional” those programs are, I’d say not very

Those same kids could have done the exact same thing, actually got more for less, at a flying club, indy CFI, mom and pop 61, etc and like half the price

Kids should be combining the flight training with a money making degree at a CC

Scam wise I can smell these people from 100 miles, when I called one curious about the scheme a month or so ago it took me like 3min to see the hook, it’s shame folks don’t do more arguing, negotiating, haggling these days, too much “stress” I guess, but costs em
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Are you a CFI, how many students have you trained, and have worked in a college and non college professional pilot program, a club and a mom/pop training operation?

I have done all of these. Your perception of professional flight training in 2025, the needs of career students and reality is not aligned.

You can get there spending a lot less money or you can get there fast, but you can’t do both. If you look at student drop out rates between the 2 programs, you will see far less students drop out of the professional programs.

The reason is rather simple. One program has all the structure in place for the student training and one relies on the student to provide most the structure.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
The dream is to make a big fat paycheck while flying. I don't think they ever think about how mind-numbingly boring most of a 12+-hour flight will be when they get to that level.
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The ones that do the research and talk to other pilots know exactly what the job entails. When I was young I had a UPS pilot that acted as my mentor, and he was happy to run me through all the good and bad about the industry. Looking at your other thread, you're learning that there's more to QOL than the airplane you fly and where you go. As I got older I realized that the QOL that mattered most was what my life was like at home. Would I love to be slinging a 185 around Alaska? Of course. But at the end of the day I have a mortgage to pay and kids to put through college. I also like being home and present (read: phone off) for all the important moments in my daughters' lives. If that means my work life is routine, so be it.

And for the record, a 12+ hour flight means 4 pilots and two breaks. We're only in the seat for 3-4 hours at a time, and sleeping upstairs otherwise. It's really not that bad. ;)
 
Roller said:
I agree

I fly a wide body now, but it took my a while to be willing to get here, sometimes I still wonder if in would have been happier staying flying charter.

In many ways I think 135, 91, DPE work have a better QOL than 121, just depends on the person

That said I didn’t get scammed into a “cadet” program and I always try to talk to folks who want to get into the industry on tips, one of them is say NO to ATP/cadet/etc
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I was 135/91/91k for over 15 years. I've been at a legacy for almost 3 years now. Best quality of life and most enjoyable flying of my career.

Posting this from a cafe in Paris as I eat breakfast.
 
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