A "Puppy Mill" Goes to Court

[Tai]

I think a lot of these students looked at the 2021-23 hiring landscape and got an unrealistic view of aviation. That was arguably one of the best times in history to get hired at a major airline. They expect 1 year zero to hero, 1 year flying RJs, then off to their major airline of choice, when in reality, that was an anomaly and they unfortunately missed that boat.

This is what a lot of flight schools pitch though.

From my experience, at my school, students aren't coming in thinking that they can go from zero to CFII in one year -- but this is what the school is advertising to full-time students. I've known many students who have taken out $100k loans thinking they would be done in a year (as they were told) and 1 year and 6 mos later they still haven't finished (flying at least 4 days a week).

It's an extremely unrealistic timeline if the student-to-instructor ratio isn't viable and also if enough planes aren't being provided for flight. I'm hearing it's becoming a huge problem everywhere, especially in schools that offer Part 141.

 

[pfarber]

This is what a lot of flight schools pitch though.

From my experience, at my school, students aren't coming in thinking that they can go from zero to CFII in one year -- but this is what the school is advertising to full-time students. I've known many students who have taken out $100k loans thinking they would be done in a year (as they were told) and 1 year and 6 mos later they still haven't finished (flying at least 4 days a week).

It's an extremely unrealistic timeline if the student-to-instructor ratio isn't viable and also if enough planes aren't being provided for flight. I'm hearing it's becoming a huge problem everywhere, especially in schools that offer Part 141.

The math on this is pretty easy. For an 8 hour a day job there are 2080 working hours in a year, not including weekends. So in a year its possible , yet not probable, to get to 1500 hours in a year. FAR 61.195 limits a CFI to 8 hours of instruction in a 24 hour period... but that can be up to interpretation... what is 'instruction'? Face time? Flight time? booked time?

 

[Larry in TN]

For an 8 hour a day job there are 2080 working hours in a year, not including weekends. So in a year its possible , yet not probable, to get to 1500 hours in a year.

Zero to CFII is not 1,500 hours. In a part 141 program, it's more like 250 hours. It's doable, but the student has to keep up. There will be setbacks with availability but you have to work through those.

I once did a non-professional student Zero to PPL in 30 days. He has Danish and come to the US for flight training due to costs in Denmark. The plan was to fly twice per day with ground work in between flights. That left enough slack to work around weather delays and other issues. It was a busy 30 days and he worked very hard.

I think, these days, a big problem would be DPE availability. From what people post, it can be a serious problem for someone on a schedule. Schools can gain self examining authority for at least some of their check rides but the FAA does not hand that out easily. Though I didn't earn any ratings at Riddle, back in the late 1980s, most of their check rides were still being given by DPE.

We're only hearing from the students who didn't succeed. What do those who did have to say?

 

[crash7]

The math on this is pretty easy. For an 8 hour a day job there are 2080 working hours in a year, not including weekends. So in a year its possible , yet not probable, to get to 1500 hours in a year. FAR 61.195 limits a CFI to 8 hours of instruction in a 24 hour period... but that can be up to interpretation... what is 'instruction'? Face time? Flight time? booked time?

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of -FLIGHT- training. (emphasis mine)

There ya go…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If you're doing a 12+ flight you're probably going to someplace interesting.

True, but that doesn't make the flight itself more exciting.

Fractional? I prefer to know where I'm going ahead of time but you'll get to go to a lot of different planes, in between stops at Teterboro, of course. Not a good fit for those who aren't interested in customer service.

No, another charter operator. A very tiny charter operator based in a very tiny town, so they do a lot of brokered flights.

There's a lot of variety in the piloting profession.

That's true, and one of the things that's coolest about it. Each new job can mean trying and learning new things. Like how to squeeze my fat @$$ in the front of a Lear.

 

[Tai]

We're only hearing from the students who didn't succeed. What do those who did have to say?

I can only speak about the students I've spoken to...and most of them have succeeded to CFII (flying at least 4days a week). However, they all have the same complaints...and that is not being able to get it done in a year (as advertised).

I think the issue is our location: airport (extremely busy), weather, and availability of flights. The most recent complaint is our students have run out of funds to complete their multi (that was budgeted/factored in by the school). The school is now indicating that they must pay for it out-of-pocket, after they complete the CFII academy (30 days). Some students decided they would forego the academy and just finish up with their multi, to which the school said "no".

I'm only aware of 1 student that refused to take the CFII academy and seek employment as a commercial pilot...but now he's having trouble because he completed the Part 141 program with 220hrs. He's being told that his hours are too few.

So, I'm not sure if they signed a contract indicating that they must complete the CFII academy or what. For me, although I was in a part 141 program, I did not fly full-time. My choice was not to go from zero to cfii (asap) as I'm not willing to quit my job to fly 4 times a week (the location of my school is 80mi drive roundtrip for me).

I'm not in their situation, as I'm not in a hurry to complete all my ratings and licenses. But it is a stressful situation for them.

 

[Spinka]

True, but that doesn't make the flight itself more exciting.

It's weird, but my longest flights were 15 hrs and with 4 pilots, two rest periods it was easy. Wasn't bored at all.
Now back on narrow bodies, I'm starting to get restless if we're straight and level for more than an hour. Guess it's a mindset thing.

 

[francisco collazos]

it’s shame folks don’t do more arguing, negotiating, haggling these days, too much “stress” I guess, but costs em

You don't know what you don't know and kids (young adults) are especially vulnerable to these types of programs. When you are young, you got the whole world in your hand and one is starry eyed about the future. You don't have to be "dumb" to fall for these things, just look at my veterinary field and you will see we have the same problem and i'm sure most people would thing we are pretty bright. The nursing field also have similar problems as well with certifications that don't mean anything.

 

[Tools]

I guess I don’t know why, but it seems being a pilot (and it’s not unique to pilots, it just seems more critical than most jobs) about requires you to have the correct personality make up.

“Hiring off the street” just doesn’t work well. I’m not advocating the classic stair step method is the only way, but it does work well… become a pilot, get a job flying checks/surveying/CFI, turbo prop regionals, majors (big jets).

Many of the stair steps have gone away, regionals are flying big jets… the system is aging out. So we are here legitimately. It just that the “puppy mill” system ain’t gonna work on several levels. There is going to be pain like this until we readjust correctly.

 

[pfarber]

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of -FLIGHT- training. (emphasis mine)

There ya go…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lo and behold, 1.1 actually covers this:

Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

So taxi time wouldn't count, nor pre/post flight.

Thank actually kinda screws CFIs

 

[MauleSkinner]

Thank actually kinda screws CFIs

how so?