A&P and parts

[kmead]

I have always marked up the parts and outside labor on my jobs. I always keep the markup low on the line items. If the owner wants to carry in parts I really don't care. Most of the PA46 owners don't want to waste their time sourcing the parts. I kept nearly every part in stock for the PA46 because I couldn't afford delays.

One of the bigger FBOs that I managed a shop for years ago would mark up all parts and outside labor 33%. I normally take the discount that the vendor gives me and call it good. This really hurts when you're dealing with a $21,000 windshield and it's a net part! As one of my old bosses would say, "it's all about perceived value"

I get to see a lot of the other Piper factory and specialty shop's invoicing and estimates. It gets to be a bit of a shell game. One shop stated he never marked up the parts. What he didn't say was he made it up with with a quoted labor amount. Absolutely overcharging or an incompetent staff.

 

[Mike Smith]

This issue, like so many other in aviation comes down to, " it depends". An independent working out of his truck has very little overhead, while a shop on the field has lots of overhead. assuming both charge $85 per hour, the independant will keep almost all of it in profit while the shop will keep much less than that after paying overhead costs.

There is nothing immoral about marking up consumer goods, we pay a markup on pretty much all consumer goods. There is also a cost involved in the A&P using his money to buy the parts, if sells them for the same price he pays, it actually cost him a small percentage. As Tom said earlier, dealing with sales tax collection adds costs to the transaction as well. When we order something ourselves, in many cases don't even pay sales tax saving 8-10%, the shop must collect that sales tax. If the shop wants to model their business around labor profit, that suits me fine. however, if the shop provides parts to the customer it is more that fair for them to make a profit.

The point I was making with R&W earlier is that there is a shift in the way business is being done in all types of repair businesses, with the proliferation of source of parts it is easier for people to provide their own and many are demanding to do so. Naturally, repair shops are having to adjust. Most places offer labor warranty equal to the length of time the part is warranted, you should expect no such labor warranty on owner supplied parts.

 

[Bob Noel]

I am a new owner so am unfamiliar with what is normal. My plane is in for an annual but at the same time I am considering adding a few upgrades.

One thing I am looking at is K2U LED wingtips, and Aveo LED nav/strobe/position lights.

From the manufacturers, the parts are $2K and $1K respectively. Is it typical for the end user to buy these parts and bring them to the A&P shop to install, or let the shop order them... And mark them up presumably?

What is typical? My shop is telling me that they frown on user supplied parts and have a mark up of 25-35% on most but 10% on big stuff like engines.

(caveat: I'm just a (former) owner)
fwiw - if the avionics or maintenance shop normally supplies the parts, then I'm not going to try to provide the radio or whatever.

For me a major part (no pun) of owning an aircraft was working on it, I almost always did owner-assisted maintenance, except for the major radio upgrades. The A&P and IAs I used were perfectly fine with me supplying parts, but that wasn't why I hired them. I hired them because they let me do owner-assisted maintenance.

otoh - If I happen to stumble across wingtip lights or whatever and wanted to install them, I'd be happy to pay a fair cost of installing the part.

 

[frfly172]

In certain instances,I have supplied parts to the A&P with no problems,we usually agree,on the amount of time for installation ,with an add on for labor. The mechanic also usually makes an entry in the log that the parts where owner supplied.

 

[Tom-D]

The mechanic also usually makes an entry in the log that the parts where owner supplied.

Why would you put that in your maintenance records?

on the work order maybe.

 

[mondtster]

Why would you put that in your maintenance records?

I wondered the same thing when I read that.

I do know some mechanics who make some odd entries in logbooks though. This is probably just another one of those cases.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Why would you put that in your maintenance records?

on the work order maybe.

I had the same thought as well. I have met some guys that are very scared of liability and do some strange things because they believe it reduces their liability. Perhaps that is where it comes from....

 

[AKBill]

I have my A&P. I worked my butt of for it and if you want my services you pay.

Owner supplied parts don't take away my income. If i buy the part then I'll mark it up to cover my cost. If you buy it then i have nothing invested in the part hence no mark up.

I think shops that refuse to work with owners on supplied parts are butt holes and i refuse to do business with them. I used to work at one as a mechanic and now as an independent mechanic I can determine how I handle the billing. Shops that give you a hard time about parts are straight up ****ing you.

I use an independent A&P/IA for almost all my maintenance needs. I hold an A&P and worked with the individual for a little over a year, at a local part 135 operation. Personally I have not worked as an A&P for over 15years.

When annual time rolls around we discuss what we are going to do. I normally rent space in a hanger and open the plane up for inspection. Jeremy does the inspection and gives me the squawk list. I do the repairs, he inspects my work and sigh's it off. This works for us. He can be doing another annual in his hanger and still profits for the work he does for me.

Most of the time I let him purchase the parts. Starter upgrade, new battery, filters, bulbs, hardware. Other times I buy the parts.

Jeremy, runs a one man shop himself. A few years ago a snow plow damaged my plane. It required about $7000.00 worth of parts to repair. I bought all the parts and did the work he did not want to do. Paint work mostly. Painting the N numbers on the fuselage was very time consuming,
I must say it looked pretty nice when I was finished. By the way total cost of the repair was $13,500.00. He paid me $2000.00 for my work.

I think every case is different. I don't mind a mark up on the parts he sells me because he has taken the time to research, order and hold onto the part until it is installed.

 

[James331]

It's called "running a business" and "profitability", and producing an "income".

I know, all strange topics to you.

Running a business?

Go run a business and charge 15-20% over retail for parts, watch the next shop charge normal retail for the same parts, kiss your customers good bye.

That's business.


If you can get lower than retail pricing, mark it up to what your customer could get it for I he bought the parts himself, that's smart business.

Telling a customer no you can't buy your own parts, it's transparent and pathetic, and makes most feel like you are desperate for money to keep the lights on --> not a good attribute for a shop I'm trusting with my aircraft and life

 

[RotorAndWing]

Running a business?

Go run a business and charge 15-20% over retail for parts, watch the next shop charge normal retail for the same parts, kiss your customers good bye.

That's business.


If you can get lower than retail pricing, mark it up to what your customer could get it for I he bought the parts himself, that's smart business.

James, get a grip (for once). No one is suggesting marking prices up over retail.

Please go take a Business 101 course somewhere, you have a lot to learn.

Telling a customer no you can't buy your own parts, it's transparent and pathetic, and makes most feel like you are desperate for money to keep the lights on --> not a good attribute for a shop I'm trusting with my aircraft and life

So is the Chevy dealer you take your 'Vette to "desperate" and "transparent and pathetic"?

Please tell us when you take it to the Chevy dealer you ask "What's wrong?" and when they tell you, you say "OK, I'll go to Rock Auto and order the part, bring back to you to install, OK?"

Tell us how that works out.


And please, quote the post where I said anything about marking a product up over retail.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

James, get a grip (for once). No one is suggesting marking prices up over retail.

Please go take a Business 101 course somewhere, you have a lot to learn.




So is the Chevy dealer you take your 'Vette to "desperate" and "transparent and pathetic"?

Please tell us when you take it to the Chevy dealer you ask "What's wrong?" and when they tell you, you say "OK, I'll go to Rock Auto and order the part, bring back to you to install, OK?"

Tell us how that works out.


And please, quote the post where I said anything about marking a product up over retail.

Rotor tell me what you think about this....

The plane I fly at work was in need of some labor intensive repair. We didn't provide parts but I did help fix the plane.. about 80 hours worth of labor. My labor knocked off about 8K from the repair bill. The same shop often asks if we have our own parts for consumables such as tires because they are low on inventory during the busy season. The shop I"m talking about is so busy they have to turn away work and they are doing very will financially . One of the reasons they are so successful is their customers needs and bottom line come first. The owner feels that by doing so they are also looking out for themselves. In practice that is what happens. They are well respected, in demand and flourishing. They never ***** about customer supplied parts.

After 20 years in this industry I have never found a good shop that takes care of its customers having heart burn over customer supplied parts. I have found plenty that like to bend their customers over for every cent have an issue with owner supplied parts.....

Just my experience over the years.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Rotor tell me what you think about this....

The plane I fly at work was in need of some labor intensive repair. We didn't provide parts but I did help fix the plane.. about 80 hours worth of labor. My labor knocked off about 8K from the repair bill. The same shop often asks if we have our own parts for consumables such as tires because they are low on inventory during the busy season. The shop I"m talking about is so busy they have to turn away work and they are doing very will financially . One of the reasons they are so successful is their customers needs and bottom line come first. The owner feels that by doing so they are also looking out for themselves. In practice that is what happens. They are well respected, in demand and flourishing. They never ***** about customer supplied parts.

After 20 years in this industry I have never found a good shop that takes care of its customers having heart burn over customer supplied parts. I have found plenty that like to bend their customers over for every cent have an issue with owner supplied parts.....

Just my experience over the years.

Find a shop that will work within your terms. Don't hold it against them if they won't install customer supplied parts, go find someone who will.

As far as the previous quip from our resident shade tree mechanic, my business was very successful, so much so that someone offered me a very handsome price for it and I sold it.

 

[JOhnH]

Why does everything have to turn into a ****ing contest?

The OP said he is a new owner and was wondering what was customary. He wasn't asking for permission, or instructions on how ro cheat the mechanic.

I always allow the mechanic supply parts. He usually charges what I would pay after shipping anyway. I don't have to hope I ordered the right part. If the part is DOA I don't have to deal with returning it. And I don't want my mechanic resenting me.

 

[SCCutler]

I have never encountered a shop which, when supplying parts, gouged me on the price. I have worked with large shops, and I've worked with small shops.

Most of the mechanics with whom I have worked lately seem content with me supplying parts, provided (of course) the parts are of appropriate quality and provenance.

If my A&P expends time and effort in researching and sourcing parts, or if he has incurred the significant expense of stocking and carrying parts which he sells to me, I think it only fair and appropriate for him to get a reasonable markup on the parts; it is an expected part of the business transaction, in my view.

One shop I worked with would, when the plane was brought in, ask for my credit card number, and order parts using that. He was, of course, someone whom I trusted.

Really, it is all over the map; you just need to learn the preferences of your preferred A&P, and roll with it.

 

[James331]

James, get a grip (for once). No one is suggesting marking prices up over retail.

Please go take a Business 101 course somewhere, you have a lot to learn.




So is the Chevy dealer you take your 'Vette to "desperate" and "transparent and pathetic"?

Please tell us when you take it to the Chevy dealer you ask "What's wrong?" and when they tell you, you say "OK, I'll go to Rock Auto and order the part, bring back to you to install, OK?"

Tell us how that works out.


And please, quote the post where I said anything about marking a product up over retail.

What you said sounded like you were talking about marking prices up over what a customer normally could purchase them for himself, if I was mistaken, my apologies.

As for your Chevy comment, I used to get my oil changed at the dealer and I would bring in my own fluids and filter, they didn't have a problem with it.

 

[DesertNomad]

What you said sounded like you were talking about marking prices up over what a customer normally could purchase them for himself, if I was mistaken, my apologies.

As for your Chevy comment, I used to get my oil changed at the dealer and I would bring in my own fluids and filter, they didn't have a problem with it.

My shop DOES price parts for more than I can buy them myself. Perhaps 10-15% more. There are not many choices around here.

 

[BiffJ]

For the OP....talk to the shop you're dealing with. Most shops don't care if you buy the parts or they do. Sometimes they get discounts but not very often. As others noted they may mark up parts or may not. Talking with your mechanic is a much better way of finding out however. As you can see opinions here are divided. My mechanic will frequently get pricing and then I will see if I can do better.....in some cases I do. We work together on projects because it helps both of us. I have an A&P as well and know what it takes to get and keep the certificate. He doesn't help me out just because of that though....he treats all his customers like people instead of like a host. We all know he's trying to keep his shop paid for and his intent is to make a profit. We try to help him do this because otherwise we're on our own in the middle of nowhere. Having the A&P helps out immensely for me but I don't have his shop, tools or experience and they're all worth something so I'm happy to pay his rates and work with him.
Hope that helps

Frank

 

[bnt83]

At a big 145 repair station you will find that customer supplied parts are charged a handling fee. Even if they bring the part onboard the airplane with proper documents that part must physically be routed to "Receiving" and go through the company procedures before it can be sent to a mechanic on the floor.

Its amazing how careless some things are packaged. I saw a radar antenna (maybe 5 pounds) that wore a hole through the box once. IDK the fate of it but it looked trashed.

 

[Stewartb]

I provide parts for my mechanic if there's something I want changed or added. For general maintenance parts he takes care of that. Common practice around here.

 

[Anticept]

I don't have a problem with a customer supplying their own parts. I'm not an auto shop that has a parts department and the associated overhead. Making a small markup isn't usually worth the hassle. But I do have rules. If the part you bought fails, don't come back to me looking for a discount or free labor to R&R or diagnose. You also get to ship it back to wherever you bought it from. If what you buy is doesn't fit or is missing parts, your plane gets pushed outside and it goes to the bottom of the priority list while you get it sorted out. It's like an owner assisted annual. If you know what your doing you can save money and time. If you don't, it will probably cost you more and take longer.

+1. I would also point out that it had better come with tags/traceability. I don't mind owner supplied parts, and I love the help (gives me time to focus on more important things). Just meet me halfway and don't expect me to put my head on the chopping block

 

[Tom-D]

+1. I would also point out that it had better come with tags/traceability. I don't mind owner supplied parts, and I love the help (gives me time to focus on more important things). Just meet me halfway and don't expect me to put my head on the chopping block

What do you do with parts that come from a salvage yards?

 

[DesertNomad]

For the OP....talk to the shop you're dealing with. Most shops don't care if you buy the parts or they do.

Mine does. Word from the owner a couple days ago is no user-supplied parts.

There is another shop 30 miles away, but it's not very convenient and I am not sure if that have a similar policy.

 

[bradg33]

Start asking around and see if you can find an independent A&P. There's usually more of them around than you realize, and many don't advertise and only work via word of mouth. We use an independent guy, who has a day job, that's cheaper than everywhere else and is happy to let us supply parts. He's easy to work with, friendly, and is happy to let me help. Start asking around, I bet you'll find someone that isn't a big shop.

As to user-supplied parts, our general arrangement with our A&P is we supply most of the parts, though he occasionally handles that. It's kind of a "Whatever works best in this particular instance" kind of situation. If he's in the middle of a job and realizes something is busted, he usually handles it. If we take it to him knowing something is busted, we usually bring the part along. If he sees something is busted that isn't critical, we order the parts. He's happy either way, and so are we.

 

[James331]

Mine does. Word from the owner a couple days ago is no user-supplied parts.

There is another shop 30 miles away, but it's not very convenient and I am not sure if that have a similar policy.

I'll second finding a GOOD freelance APIA, also run the numbers on what you're paying in markup, call the other shop up, tell them why the first guy may be loosing your business and ask if they have the same policy, might make sense to take your plane that other shop

 

[N801BH]

Start asking around and see if you can find an independent A&P. There's usually more of them around than you realize, and many don't advertise and only work via word of mouth. We use an independent guy, who has a day job, that's cheaper than everywhere else and is happy to let us supply parts. He's easy to work with, friendly, and is happy to let me help. Start asking around, I bet you'll find someone that isn't a big shop.

As to user-supplied parts, our general arrangement with our A&P is we supply most of the parts, though he occasionally handles that. It's kind of a "Whatever works best in this particular instance" kind of situation. If he's in the middle of a job and realizes something is busted, he usually handles it. If we take it to him knowing something is busted, we usually bring the part along. If he sees something is busted that isn't critical, we order the parts. He's happy either way, and so are we.

Best answer yet.........

 

[Anticept]

What do you do with parts that come from a salvage yards?

Case by case basis . I would like to see proof of what salvage yard it came from at least. If it doesn't come tagged, I'll have to tag it, which means testing!

It's that testing where I draw the line. I'm not experienced enough or equipped to test a lot of parts, so if it's a salvage yard part, it's probably going to have to go somewhere else if it's not tagged. Someday I will, but I'm not at that comfort level yet.

Also matters if it's a flight school plane or other "for hire" aircraft, or a private individual. I'm a little more lenient on private individuals.

 

[Tom-D]

Case by case basis . I would like to see proof of what salvage yard it came from at least. If it doesn't come tagged, I'll have to tag it, which means testing!

That's only you

It's that testing where I draw the line. I'm not experienced enough or equipped to test a lot of parts, so if it's a salvage yard part, it's probably going to have to go somewhere else if it's not tagged. Someday I will, but I'm not at that comfort level yet.

Also matters if it's a flight school plane or other "for hire" aircraft, or a private individual. I'm a little more lenient on private individuals.

Remember the best test bench is the aircraft.

 

[Tom-D]

Also matters if it's a flight school plane or other "for hire" aircraft, or a private individual. I'm a little more lenient on private individuals.

That's a fallaciously, you may have the best of relationship with your customer, but you don't know their spouse, or their lawyer.

That's who you will be required to deal with after the accident.

 

[Anticept]

That's a fallaciously, you may have the best of relationship with your customer, but you don't know their spouse, or their lawyer.

That's who you will be required to deal with after the accident.

I said "a little" . You're talking to someone who is very cautious regardless, as my other thread pointed out!

Tell you what, I will just go ahead and say instead, EVERYTHING is case by case basis

 

[mondtster]

Also matters if it's a flight school plane or other "for hire" aircraft, or a private individual. I'm a little more lenient on private individuals.

I would be the opposite. In my experience, it is the private owners who are more apt to be cheap and bring you a junk part and try to talk you into signing off a questionable repair. Then when it breaks it will be your fault and you'll be dealing with the owner, if you're lucky. If you're not lucky you'll be dealing with their spouse and family.

The flight schools and for hire operations I've dealt with seem to just want the airplane fixed so they can get it back in service. When it is in the shop being fixed it isn't making money.

 

[Skip Miller]

When it is in the shop being fixed it isn't making money.

And if it is a leased back aircraft, the repair doesn't cost them money, that's on the owner (usually) It is just the time off the rental line. So yes they want it done quickly! Hopefully that means done well and quickly!

-Skip

 

[Anticept]

I would be the opposite. In my experience, it is the private owners who are more apt to be cheap and bring you a junk part and try to talk you into signing off a questionable repair. Then when it breaks it will be your fault and you'll be dealing with the owner, if you're lucky. If you're not lucky you'll be dealing with their spouse and family.

The flight schools and for hire operations I've dealt with seem to just want the airplane fixed so they can get it back in service. When it is in the shop being fixed it isn't making money.

I'd throw that individual out of my shop. I've witnessed first hand a jackass trying to throw a friend of mine under the bus. The FAA showed up at his shop and started asking questions about that taylorcraft, and he straight told them "You know I gave it an unairworthy signoff, right?" They packed up and said "We're done here, keep up the good work!"

I've got limited experience, but basically the few private individuals that I've talked with have their head on their shoulders. If they brought me a part to install on their plane, I'm still scrupulous of the part, but these are people that I know and work with for a long time. Safety is in the forefront of their mind.

When dealing with rental and for hire operations, they have high standards (most of the time) too, but I too hold them to it. So I rarely run into a problem with them.

 

[steingar]

The mechanic who won't let me source genuine aircraft part won't be my mechanic for long. The mechanic who points out that my genuine aircraft part really isn't so, and points me in the right direction to get one will be my mechanic for a long time indeed.

 

[Anticept]

The mechanic who won't let me source genuine aircraft part won't be my mechanic for long. The mechanic who points out that my genuine aircraft part really isn't so, and points me in the right direction to get one will be my mechanic for a long time indeed.

And we would have a long, safe, prosperous relationship if you showed up here

 

[Ravioli]

Holy guacamole. This one took some twists and turns.

I'm fortunate that I have an independent A&P on the field who does great work, charges a reasonable hourly rate, is willing to do owner assisted work at MY hangar when I'm available, and has no issue with owner supplied parts. He's much younger than I am, and has been independent a relatively short time, so I'm sure the cash flow helps him.

In fact, if there is stuff that he can get for less than I can, he orders it and I pick it up and pay cash. I save money (it's a short drive) and he's working on someone else's plane instead of driving around picking stuffs up.

Win-Win.

These arrangements cannot be all that rare.

 

[steingar]

And we would have a long, safe, prosperous relationship if you showed up here

My last annual was done there by Roger Tucker. When I owned my first airplane, instead of blithely ordering the busted part from Cessna he pointed me in a direction to get a salvage part for about a fifth as much. I remembered. I'd have more done there, but it is a bit spendy. Still, we should talk. I'll need to line someone up for my Mooney, and I don't mind getting my hands dirty. There are folks on POA who can attest to that fact.

 

[Anticept]

I can't do work for the public right now (I've been lending a hand to other shops, that's where I'm getting my experience), but I can point you in the right directions or offer some tips or advice and usually the sources to back it up.

Anyways:

Roger Tucker is a GREAT mechanic, but unfortunately since he now works for the OSU repair station, he can't use many of his fancy tricks anymore to save money on parts. OSU is SUPER PARANOID, so basically it's a line service repair station: pull part off, send it for repairs somewhere else. He's a fantastic resource for general questions though, just drop him an email. It's kind of a shame, he's got incredible talent. But at least now he's got a cushy management job

Shamrock air services at the Delaware airport is a good place, and Shane is a good friend of mine. He's willing to do just about anything you bring to him, just make sure you are clear on what you want done; he does come from an airline background and will sometimes go a bit above and beyond. Other than maintenance, he's pretty damn Irish, and it shows!

Primeaero in Marysville has been around in GA forever, and Dave Hessler knows what he's doing. He teaches at CSCC AMT too. They do good work, but are also more conservative with some of the things they handle. They love mooneys though.

Out at Parr airfield (42i) near newark, Bob Norman basically is a Mooney freak. I've never been to him personally, but I hear a lot from very reliable sources (as in, one of his employees was my classmate!). He knows what he is doing, but he is very lenient on maintenance. I say this as both a blessing and a curse: I've seen planes come from there that are in beautiful shape as he can turn one hell of a wrench, but I've also seen ones that look like if they landed too hard they would explode. He's a believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" strategy, but sometimes I think he lets it go a little too far before recommending replacements. Just be sure to talk it over with him.

What mooney model do you have?

 

[DesertNomad]

You guys are lucky I guess. My local shop quoted $1720 for lights that I can buy direct from the manufacturer (Aveo) for $1100. They won't allow me to bring them the parts myself. I might have to find another shop but it'd be 100 miles away.

 

[N801BH]

You guys are lucky I guess. My local shop quoted $1720 for lights that I can buy direct from the manufacturer (Aveo) for $1100. They won't allow me to bring them the parts myself. I might have to find another shop but it'd be 100 miles away.

As slow as GA is nowadays, you would think that shops want as much business as they can generate..

 

[docmirror]

You guys are lucky I guess. My local shop quoted $1720 for lights that I can buy direct from the manufacturer (Aveo) for $1100. They won't allow me to bring them the parts myself. I might have to find another shop but it'd be 100 miles away.

For that savings, I'd fly or drive an A&P in, or take the plane to them. I presume that's just the parts, and not the parts plus install? Shops think that the consumer has no choice is what drives this behavior. It's up to you now, but you always have a choice.