8/10 Students Leaving, My turn

Armageddon Aviator said:
Learning to fly is NOT easy - saying so is misleading and makes the wrong impression on people who think that learning to fly is "a piece of cake" and rapidly get disappointed and frustrated, eventually dropping out...

Student pilots need to be told the TRUTH.

Flying is NOT easy, it requires a lot of dedication, a lot of learning, skills, patience and money - BUT - if you REALLY want to learn, and are willing to fully invest yourself in the process, there are very good chances for you to succeed.
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Thank you. And like I said, 16 yrs of flightsim before taking real lessons, DID NOT teach me how to fly!
 
redtail said:
Thank you. And like I said, 16 yrs of flightsim before taking real lessons, DID NOT teach me how to fly!
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Yeah, if anything, it gives you things you need to "unlearn" when flying real planes!

That said, I have done currency approaches using the approved version of X-plane monitored by a CFII, and I do see value in IFR training, just not basic flight skills.
 
I remember trying to make an AG sim out of this levered/gimbaled seat controller unit. It was a cool unit; we were still in the mid 90s versions of MSFS so it wasn't great for low visual, but it was good for learning how to work the SatLoc system.
 
If you think flying is easy watch first season of "Flying Wild Alaska" and watch Ariel learn to fly. It takes work!
 
There were many, many times during my ppl training where I contemplated quitting. Many CFI's who didn't work, many flights scrapped for weather/maint/illness, big gaps due to money, etc but I stuck it out and I am glad I did. Perseverance is not optional when learning how to fly.

The biggest difference for me was deciding that nothing was going to stand in front of me and my dream, and finding a CFI who actually likes to teach. If you truly want this you can do it!

Nothing here excuses the sorry state of the aviation training industry overall. There are a ton of things that could be done to improve the process, but like I said perseverance is not optional when learning how to fly.
 
Greg, before you quit, you really do need to take a break and find a better school or CFI. Ask for names and numbers of students who have gotten their PPL, and ask them what they thought of their instruction.

If you don't get any names and numbers, move along.

Now, I went to a Part 141 school and was fortunate to get some very good CFIs...younger guys who were on an airline career track but they were excellent instructors. However, I belong to a club now and I think you should consider joining one as an option.

Most clubs have CFIs as members that will instruct club members. The advantage of that is that they are usually older guys who are doing it as a career. Also, if they get a reputation as a bad instructor, it doesn't take long before their source of students dries up.

The bottom line is that there are more options if you truly want to see this through.
 
jmp470 said:
Learning to fly is easy and exciting. Most people Solo in 15-20 hours.
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citation please.

The rest is learning all th BS that goes with flying. The OP actually addressed a real issue. The lack of standards in pilot training. These people not only provide the initial impression of GA, but are suppose to be the embassador of GA. Unfortunately, some of them fail miserably in this category. When time is money, you expect CFIs to produce and they should!

As for flight simulators, they are very useful and the FAA allows a student to fly and learn that way. Don't they allow 20 out of 40 hours for the IFR. Also, don't most jet pilots conduct their training in Sims?
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But those sims are full-motion, wrap-around and cost a fortune. I got 31 hours in Frasca sims during ASEL ground school (part 141 at the local college) which contributed 5 FAA hours & that I understood the 6-pack and how each worked to the ASEL training. Didn't benefit my actual flying. In fact I had a very difficult time learning to watch outside the window. I had a semester of looking at the panel before I got into actual flying lessons.

Note, I also like Cirrus and believe that the pilot population is declining because GA is not willing to adapt to today's youth. GA has the mentality, my way or the highway!! And 99% of the population has decided that flying is not worth it.
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Suggestions how you would revise the current training to adapt to today's youth? If you're gonna complain, then have an idea how to fix the problem.
 
Armageddon Aviator said:
Learning to fly is NOT easy - saying so is misleading and makes the wrong impression on people who think that learning to fly is "a piece of cake" and rapidly get disappointed and frustrated, eventually dropping out...

Student pilots need to be told the TRUTH.

Flying is NOT easy, it requires a lot of dedication, a lot of learning, skills, patience and money - BUT - if you REALLY want to learn, and are willing to fully invest yourself in the process, there are very good chances for you to succeed.
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Exactly! It's easy for people who are already pilots to say it is easy since they have already internalized a lot of things, but the process often is difficult and frustrating for many different reasons.
 
Adopt a "full glass, full technology, full performance" perspective. Problem is, youth doesn't have the resources to pay for all that except in a simulator. There they can have it all with near instant gratification.
 
murphey said:
citation please.



But those sims are full-motion, wrap-around and cost a fortune. I got 31 hours in Frasca sims during ASEL ground school (part 141 at the local college) which contributed 5 FAA hours & that I understood the 6-pack and how each worked to the ASEL training. Didn't benefit my actual flying. In fact I had a very difficult time learning to watch outside the window. I had a semester of looking at the panel before I got into actual flying lessons.


Suggestions how you would revise the current training to adapt to today's youth? If you're gonna complain, then have an idea how to fix the problem.
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Winner!!
Here is the most constructive comment so far.
 
It took me 85.5 hours and 10 CFIs to get my private. I was frustrated. Some weren't great instructors, and I definitely wasn't a great student. But I kept plugging away until I had enough of the right bits to make it work.

It's that way with everything. Sometimes, for some people, it's easy. One of my CFIs got his ticket right at 35 hours. One of the other CFIs took 400 hours to get his COM.

Whatever it takes. There's no set right place to find the right CFI. That old guy with his own plane at a little airport might not give you any ground and might not have a lesson plan. But, he knows a ton and has a great price. Ok, then make your own lesson plan, and explain what you need. Maybe you find that one, young CFI at a busy school who has accepted he's stuck there for a while, and is very enthusiastic about training. He might be the one that explains all the ground stuff that you never knew you wanted.

Becoming a pilot is about taking charge of your own fate and making safe flight possible for you. Being overwhelmed, enraged, or giving up are all things that have to be redirected, controlled, and wiped away to truly be in control. Make note of what bothers you, and make sure you don't do the same thing. Build yourself into the best pilot possible. Always be critical of yourself.

Also, communicate individually with your CFIs. "It REALLY upsets me when you're late." or "I really need you to show once, then let me do it myself, then discuss and make corrections." Maybe it won't help. Maybe it will. Maybe it'll at least help you defuse yourself. Maybe you plan to show up 30 mins later than scheduled with that one CFI, or you have him show up 30 mins early.

Overall though, I recommend not giving up. There's a huge sense of pride that comes with getting your cert. You'll learn things that are unquantifiable that help you in other areas of your life. Find a way to make it work.

As for FSim, save it for your IFR practice. Rod Machado's narrative is good, but it's not interactive unless you've gone to fly with him as your CFI. Law of primacy comes into play, and you'll spend a lot of time untraining some little PPASEL things you got not quite right.
 
I'll bet with all the terrestrial and space imaging resource that Google has, for the cost of getting a PPL and a couple hours a month flying, you could build a pretty awesome motion sim with surround view even into orbital flight, and support the bandwidth for the use.
 
For me, the enjoyment in flying comes from looking out the window and the kinesthetic feel of flying the airplane. I like technological improvements because of the fact that it is my job and they make my job easier. However, it's not that entertaining to me to look at the little airplane progressing across a computer screen. If I wanted to do that I would stick with flight simming because it's much cheaper.
 
Everskyward said:
For me, the enjoyment in flying comes from looking out the window and the kinesthetic feel of flying the airplane. I like technological improvements because of the fact that it is my job and they make my job easier. However, it's not that entertaining to me to look at the little airplane progressing across a computer screen. If I wanted to do that I would stick with flight simming because it's much cheaper.
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Me too, it's about the motion and the view combined with getting places. I love the view of crossing America at 100' & 180kts. Nights I like 4500', but I'm going somewhere and that is the point. Without that the rest doesn't happen.
 
jjflys said:
There were many, many times during my ppl training where I contemplated quitting. Many CFI's who didn't work, many flights scrapped for weather/maint/illness, big gaps due to money, etc but I stuck it out and I am glad I did. Perseverance is not optional when learning how to fly.
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Perseverance my ***! It's stubborness, plain & simple.

My original CFI was a time-builder, incredibly incompetent as a teacher and I didn't know it. I wasted an enormous amount of money before I realized it. POA and similar didn't exist at the time so there was dfficult to find a mentor or other avenue of information. I complained & got nowhere. I fired the CFI AND the school.

Jump ahead 4 months.

New school, slightly cheaper, new CFI, different airport. Slightly better CFI but at least this one really wanted to teach so I was agreeable. I barely remember when I solo'd. The school & CFI were trying their hardest to make it a big deal because they knew what I had gone thru. I told them point blank that no one touches the shirt, I was NOT impressed that it took this long get to solo, and the only reason I solo'd was because I am incredibly stubborn and had a checkbook. (I was working for a Big Aerospace company at the time). Frankly, the solo was not a high point in my life. Did it. Next? In fact I have to look at the logbook to find the date of the solo or the checkride.

I really, really, really want to be a CFI. Having taught high-tech both in college and professionally as well as having all the nightmares that happened to me during flight training, I really think I could be a good CFI. One that doesn't milk the student or is building time to leave ASAP and really likes to teach.

But I just can't get thru that instrument.
 
xaminmo said:
It took me 85.5 hours and 10 CFIs to get my private. I was frustrated. Some weren't great instructors, and I definitely wasn't a great student. But I kept plugging away until I had enough of the right bits to make it work.

It's that way with everything. Sometimes, for some people, it's easy. One of my CFIs got his ticket right at 35 hours. One of the other CFIs took 400 hours to get his COM.

Whatever it takes. There's no set right place to find the right CFI. That old guy with his own plane at a little airport might not give you any ground and might not have a lesson plan. But, he knows a ton and has a great price. Ok, then make your own lesson plan, and explain what you need. Maybe you find that one, young CFI at a busy school who has accepted he's stuck there for a while, and is very enthusiastic about training. He might be the one that explains all the ground stuff that you never knew you wanted.

Becoming a pilot is about taking charge of your own fate and making safe flight possible for you. Being overwhelmed, enraged, or giving up are all things that have to be redirected, controlled, and wiped away to truly be in control. Make note of what bothers you, and make sure you don't do the same thing. Build yourself into the best pilot possible. Always be critical of yourself.

Also, communicate individually with your CFIs. "It REALLY upsets me when you're late." or "I really need you to show once, then let me do it myself, then discuss and make corrections." Maybe it won't help. Maybe it will. Maybe it'll at least help you defuse yourself. Maybe you plan to show up 30 mins later than scheduled with that one CFI, or you have him show up 30 mins early.

Overall though, I recommend not giving up. There's a huge sense of pride that comes with getting your cert. You'll learn things that are unquantifiable that help you in other areas of your life. Find a way to make it work.

As for FSim, save it for your IFR practice. Rod Machado's narrative is good, but it's not interactive unless you've gone to fly with him as your CFI. Law of primacy comes into play, and you'll spend a lot of time untraining some little PPASEL things you got not quite right.
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I've been lurking for a while, but haven't been motivated to post until now. I've logged only 13 hours so far, but have been feeling frustrated with my progress, a feeling complicated by the fact that, through no fault of my own, I'm on my fourth CFI. Your post, however, has inspired me and made me realize that I shouldn't compare my progress with that of others -- that I am, indeed, in charge of my own fate. Thanks!
 
Part of what I'm seeing in this is the lack of realization that everyone went through the same exact experience. Several people have said that flying is quite difficult. I have no doubt that most everyone here had a period of frustration when they were learning to fly. Probably everyone had a problematic CFI at some point (and the converse is no doubt true, every CFI has no doubt had a problematic student).

These experiences are a normal part of flight training. It is a complex endeavor, and the natural pilot is a mythical beast. Complex things often cause frustration in their mastering, especially when they happen quickly.

The OP has a number of options, and I do hope uses them to achieve his goals.
 
Eagle I said:
I've been lurking for a while, but haven't been motivated to post until now. I've logged only 13 hours so far, but have been feeling frustrated with my progress, a feeling complicated by the fact that, through no fault of my own, I'm on my fourth CFI. Your post, however, has inspired me and made me realize that I shouldn't compare my progress with that of others -- that I am, indeed, in charge of my own fate. Thanks!
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Eagle - remember that the FAA specs are the absolute minimum. I'd like to see statistics on time-to-solo, time-to-pass-checkride, age. The FAA does have specs on categories (including student) based on age but I've never been able to find anything more detailed.

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/2010/

tables 12 & 13.
 
murphey said:
Eagle - remember that the FAA specs are the absolute minimum. I'd like to see statistics on time-to-solo, time-to-pass-checkride, age. The FAA does have specs on categories (including student) based on age but I've never been able to find anything more detailed.

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/2010/

tables 12 & 13.
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Thanks for the link to what look like some interesting statistics. And you're right -- it would be interesting to see the statistics that you mentioned.

I know the FAA specs are the minimums, and I've been told that most people take something like 60 to 70 hours to obtain their PPL, but I've been feeling like it's going to take me at least 60 to 70 hours to solo! :mad: But I suppose for now I should just enjoy the journey, and focus on learning and practicing everything that I can. I've always been a goal-oriented person, but I suppose in aviation, as in many things in life, the process is more important than the goal. I want to do it right, if I'm going to do it at all. Safety is paramount.
 
Eagle I said:
I've been lurking for a while, but haven't been motivated to post until now. I've logged only 13 hours so far, but have been feeling frustrated with my progress, a feeling complicated by the fact that, through no fault of my own, I'm on my fourth CFI. Your post, however, has inspired me and made me realize that I shouldn't compare my progress with that of others -- that I am, indeed, in charge of my own fate. Thanks!
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Welcome to POA.

Pre-solo student...motivation can be tough as we learn first what we want the aircraft to do and then learn how to make it do it. As a student, there isn't much perspective yet and we just have to trust the instructor. That is very tough for many of us.

Now throw in a few extras like prepping for emergencies and flying out of towered field and it can easily take 20 hours to solo.

It certainly got frustrating for me just before solo. I knew what the plane should do but didn't have the knowledge of how to control it to make it do what I wanted it to do. It was the old "how far do I push this do-hickey and what happens if I push it too far?" problem for me. Went up with another instructor who basically showed me that a 172 can be thrown around pretty much like a rag doll without damage and things started getting better for me. Everything I'd seen up to that point had been super smoooooooth and perfect. I really had no idea how far I could push the equipment because I'm certainly not super smoooooth. In fact, I think I spent the first 100 or so hours behind the aircraft at all times.:D It's tough to be smooth when you're always recovering.
 
I still say if you aren't 100% motivated no matter what, don't waste your money. Aviation has less redeeming qualities than heroin, and in the long run heroin will be cheaper. You can support 2 hobbies and a girlfriend for what just a taste of flying costs. You have to want flying real bad to make it worth it. If flying is annoying now pre solo with a couple thousand spent, think how aggravating his trip through the IR will be.
 
Clark1961 said:
Welcome to POA.

Pre-solo student...motivation can be tough as we learn first what we want the aircraft to do and then learn how to make it do it. As a student, there isn't much perspective yet and we just have to trust the instructor. That is very tough for many of us.

Now throw in a few extras like prepping for emergencies and flying out of towered field and it can easily take 20 hours to solo.

It certainly got frustrating for me just before solo. I knew what the plane should do but didn't have the knowledge of how to control it to make it do what I wanted it to do. It was the old "how far do I push this do-hickey and what happens if I push it too far?" problem for me. Went up with another instructor who basically showed me that a 172 can be thrown around pretty much like a rag doll without damage and things started getting better for me. Everything I'd seen up to that point had been super smoooooooth and perfect. I really had no idea how far I could push the equipment because I'm certainly not super smoooooth. In fact, I think I spent the first 100 or so hours behind the aircraft at all times.:D It's tough to be smooth when you're always recovering.
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Some instructors rush past the basics way too fast, then watch you struggle with more advanced things for the next 50 hours because it's too much at once.

I spend the first few hours simply having students fly around, take me to that little town there, now that little town, follow that road, climb to 5,000, descend to 3,000. level off and maintain 100 knots. now descend at 80 knots. now climb at 95 knots. Turn that way. Turn this way.

Until I see that someone can make the airplane go where they want and until they understand how to get the airplane into whatever profile I spit out..We don't move on. I really want them to understand that they have to set things to wherever it needs to be to get the result they want instead of teaching people to fly this RPM here..that RPM there...etc..etc.

I really want to see them get good at trim. It is as close to an autopilot as they're going to get and unless they can trim quickly they'll struggle from there on out.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I suspect that if your life depended on you getting your ticket, or at least you believed it did, the CFI could spit in your face every morning and you'd still get it done.
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But, nobody's life depends on it, and it's attitudes like this that will continue to shrink aviation.

We need more good business people running flight schools (FBO's too, but mainly the flight schools). It's sadly far too rare for a flight school to have good marketing, a friendly and inviting staff, good instructors and good airplanes.
 
Definition Time!

Flight School = A group of people who love flying so much they are willing to push money towards a losing proposition. This group may own an airplane or two, but usually uses airplanes owned by others who hope to recover costs through leasing.

Aeronautical University = a group of investors who know that aviation is a loss-leader which costs can be recovered by charging high tuition, fee, and book rates for classes such as "Meteorology for Aviators."

Independent CFI = An adult who isn't willing to take $12/hour to fly 8 hours a day in a C152.
 
Everskyward said:
Exactly! It's easy for people who are already pilots to say it is easy since they have already internalized a lot of things, but the process often is difficult and frustrating for many different reasons.
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I remember being frustrated at how long it took me to learn how to land!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But, nobody's life depends on it, and it's attitudes like this that will continue to shrink aviation.

We need more good business people running flight schools (FBO's too, but mainly the flight schools). It's sadly far too rare for a flight school to have good marketing, a friendly and inviting staff, good instructors and good airplanes.
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In defense of this flight school everything but staff is great. There are some nice people but they don't actively teach or work there part time. One lady is only there 3 months out of the year, she does international charters for the rest of the year.

The planes have been upgraded and improved and the fleet has increased. I could get anything from seaplane to aerobatic training here. When I started duct tape held some seats together...Now the seats are from various sources and are vinyl, not more duct taped cloth.
 
Palmpilot said:
I remember being frustrated at how long it took me to learn how to land!
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The only reason I "remember" how frustrating it was to learn to fly is that I kept a journal. Actually I kept a journal about everything, not just flying. A number of years ago I discovered it and thought it was pretty embarrassing so I shredded it. But before I did so I transcribed everything relating to flying lessons onto the computer. It was a little bit of an eye-opener since I remembered very little either of what we did or how I felt.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Thank you very much! I did not expect such harsh replies or PM's calling me a baby or saying goodbye and good riddance. I came to this section hoping that some people would just remember how much CFI's mean and what that has to do with the number of pilots in general without being thrust out into the trash bin but, as my lit teacher loved to say, "You (I) have failed to provide adequate reasoning due to a lack evidence organized in such a manner as to obtain your reader's attention and therefor have failed."

I greatly appreciate all of the (Positive) help and suggestions from everyone though and I'll put them to work. I vented some anger and frustration and I think that I can re-title this thread.

(I went to the shooting range as well, they have airplane shaped clay targets!)
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You got PM's asking you to leave?
 
Sometimes Henning reminds me of that Saturday Night Live character "Debbie Downer"!
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Wow, why aren't you just a spokesman for all of GA? I don't see why everyone isn't jumping out of their seats to go fly with how appealing you make it.
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That's why it's called a reality check. Reality is that GA is super expensive and nearly useless.
 
Henning said:
One is nourishment at $10 a pound, the other is entertainment at $120 an hour...
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As I said in another post somewhere... experiences are what life is about (to me). So I'd rather spend the 120 bones on something like flying and then daydream about that experience for the next few days than not... or I can daydream about it over a yummy steak. There ya go, I spent $130. Wasn't that fun?:rolleyes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But, nobody's life depends on it, and it's attitudes like this that will continue to shrink aviation.

We need more good business people running flight schools (FBO's too, but mainly the flight schools). It's sadly far too rare for a flight school to have good marketing, a friendly and inviting staff, good instructors and good airplanes.
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Actually, someones life will depend on it from solo on. Might as well get familiar with the concept.

What is good marketing for GA? Use it for transportation? When I can fly commercial coast to coast for $200.

Or flying is fun. Well it is, but for what a day of flying cost you can take a family of four to Disney World for the weekend. Henning might suggest two hookers with very bad habits, but you get my drift.

I would suggest GA be marketed more like joining the Special Forces than the Girl Scouts. Instead of trying to sell everyone is welcome and flying is easy crap, how about:

GA needs more pilots. Learning to fly will be many things, but never easy, and certainly not for everyone. Becoming a pilot will make you face your fears, study hard, practice for hours, and empty your wallet. However, you will gain a practical skill that few people have, your self-esteem will soar, you will become more exacting in every area of life, you will learn to overcome adversity, you will become an expert in preparation and planning, mostly you will learn that you can count on yourself not to quit when it really matters.

This could be the alternative to confidence course retreats, $500 per hour shrinks telling you how special you are, prozac, support groups, you name it.

Just another way of looking at it I guess.
 
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