8/10 Students Leaving, My turn

Hmm, the OP seems a bit histrionic...

Because YOU - and all students - learn to fly by (gasp) flying... If the CFI flies the airplane you learn nothing - at that point you are paying a high price to be a passenger...
So, the job of the CFI is to
1. Keep you from killing him (and you) or merely wrecking the plane...
2. To offer suggestions as to how, lets say, the turns around a point might work better if you do x, or y, or z... But YOU have to do it, not him...
And so forth and so on, from start up to engine shut down... Suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, perhaps a short demonstration of take off and departure stalls, etc. but that is all.. It is not his job (and not possible) to somehow transfer The Force from his mind to yours... The only way for you to get a mental picture of how the sight picture as you roll onto short final should look in the windscreen is for you to keep doing it (too high, too low, too left, etc.) Until one day you roll out of the turn and recognize that it is perfect and you do nothing but hold that attitude until you flare for a squeaker... To know by feel that that a turn is coordinated without looking at the needle and ball... He cannot TEACH you to do that... He can only safeguard you and the plane as you go through the painful process of doing it over and over until the sight picture and the feel finally 'clicks' in your brain...

Let me give you a tip... Never again until you have your Certificate even breath the topic of, "How I learned how to fly with MS or FSX" (or whatever)... Because as tolerant as I am I will give an eye roll behind your back and mentally tag you as someone most likely to drop out... I know you cannot understand this - in your mind your computer game time has made you a pilot (not, sonny... Absolutely NOT) - and that I think is one of the major problems yo have created for yourself...

denny-o (older than dirt)
 
Sure - it could be a kid with an attitude problem (as has been decried), or, we have something here that I'm seeing more and more of (and share some of the same sentiment):

1. Its too expensive to fly
2. Way too many CFIs out there are phoning it in because they aren't good CFIs
3. A lot of pilots that have been doing this for a while now have the "I'm better than you attitude because I have HOURS in my logbook!" I suppose this is natural...a few years ago, when they were younger, they were the ones receiving the attitude. Now they think they're supposed to give it as well.

To the OP: If you can not give up, keep looking. There is probably a worthy CFI around you somewhere. I think I went though like 4 locally before I finally found one that didn't suck. In NM, I must have gone through about 7. About the only time I found a CFI that I jived with immediately was my original CFI in Nashua, NH (of course, Tony was a great CFI too, but I only got to fly with him once, and I knew he'd never be my local CFI).

BTW, I'd like to point out the following thread...you'll see that some CFIs get awfully damn touchy when someone disagrees that they're god's gifts to aviation (which is what is happening here in this thread too): http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41462

edit: Also note that the distaste for MSFS is probably because a lot of CFIs are afraid that they can be replaced by a "game." I saw a study that showed that aside from having to reteach looking outside, those that used flight simulator software were actually better prepared to fly than those that didn't. But hey - they gotta justify $40-45/hr somehow, right?
 
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Look, if you go to the pilot farms that produce airline pilots for your training, this is what you get. My question to you is "WTF did you expect?" if you want flight training from someone that gives a s-it about giving training, find an independent with their own airplane. It'll likely be cheaper hourly as well. If you've been at this since you were 14 and are 16 and haven't figured out a better way though, I agree that you should quit.
 
I don't disagree with him that he is getting crappy instruction, I believe his tale as it's nowhere near unique. His reaction is what is telling of him. If he can't/doesn't want to figure his way through it for whatever reason, it is best that he quits wasting exorbitant amounts of money now; I'm sure there's better uses to which it can be put, like getting laid.
 
I think it's not uncommon for 16 almost 17 year old boys to vent when frustrated. And I feel it's important that we are mindful to make this student pilot section of the forum a safe place for students of all ages and experience levels to express themselves. He has gotten good feedback and will no doubt follow through when he can. I would imagine that all of us experienced frustrations with learning plateaus and just having a hard time while obtaining our ratings and some of us took time to step back, evaluate our situation and then continue accordingly.
I think that suggesting that a young man who is home schooled and trying to earn money to pay for decent instruction to use the money to get laid is inappropriate although maybe it was meant as a joke.
 
Jeanie said:
I think it's not uncommon for 16 almost 17 year old boys to vent when frustrated. And I feel it's important that we are mindful to make this student pilot section of the forum a safe place for students of all ages and experience levels to express themselves. He has gotten good feedback and will no doubt follow through when he can. I would imagine that all of us experienced frustrations with learning plateaus and just having a hard time while obtaining our ratings and some of us took time to step back, evaluate our situation and then continue accordingly.
I think that suggesting that a young man who is home schooled and trying to earn money to pay for decent instruction to use the money to get laid is inappropriate although maybe it was meant as a joke.
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If he's growing up in that world he needs to get laid way more than he needs to fly...
 
Henning said:
I don't disagree with him that he is getting crappy instruction, I believe his tale as it's nowhere near unique. His reaction is what is telling of him. If he can't/doesn't want to figure his way through it for whatever reason, it is best that he quits wasting exorbitant amounts of money now; I'm sure there's better uses to which it can be put, like getting laid.
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I got about 7 hours at the school referenced by the OP. I had a very similar experience as the OP, where my primary CFI didn't show up once, cancelled once 12 hours before because of a last minute business trip, and was late at least once. I as a result flew with other cfi's, one who was great, and another who had tons of experience, but didn't have much interest in being in the plane with me. (as was my 'feeling') When you make payments of $200-400 per flight and you're treated as a number, it's sad. I finished up my pp two years later with a club at a different nearby airport, with one instructor, who have a great relationship with and will be starting my instrument in the next few weeks!
 
bigblockz8 said:
I am now officially done with flying unless I somehow let the bug nag at me. Today was my final lesson for the foreseeable future unless I get lucky and win one of the many scholarships,contests, or jobs that I applied for.
Click to expand...

In that case, it may be time to change your signature
I'm not giving up until I fly a Pawnee! (Super Cubs are fun though)
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Jim Logajan said:
Given your experience and cost tolerance, I see nothing wrong with your decision - only thing I would suggest is to keep open the option of getting a pilot certificate for some point in the future when things align better.
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+1

TMetzinger said:
Greg (the OP),

Since we're sort of neighbors... why don't you take a week or so to cool off and get going on the rest of your life. Then drop me a PM or an email and let's talk about flying and such.
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+1

Jeanie said:
I think it's not uncommon for 16 almost 17 year old boys to vent when frustrated. And I feel it's important that we are mindful to make this student pilot section of the forum a safe place for students of all ages and experience levels to express themselves. He has gotten good feedback and will no doubt follow through when he can. I would imagine that all of us experienced frustrations with learning plateaus and just having a hard time while obtaining our ratings and some of us took time to step back, evaluate our situation and then continue accordingly.
I think that suggesting that a young man who is home schooled and trying to earn money to pay for decent instruction to use the money to get laid is inappropriate although maybe it was meant as a joke.
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Thank you for having a cool head, Jeanie.


AdamZ said:
OP, you have two awesome offers from this board one from Jeannie for flying camp and one from Tim, If you're serious about flying you'll take one of them up on it. If your not you won't and look that's OK too, no one will think that your a schmoe because you don't like flying if its just not for you. Best of Luck in what ever you decide.
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I also made him an offer that hasn't been answered. I got my ticket at Freeway and I'm based there "for cryin' out loud"!:idea:
 
Dr. O said:
Let me give you a tip... Never again until you have your Certificate even breath the topic of, "How I learned how to fly with MS or FSX" (or whatever)... Because as tolerant as I am I will give an eye roll behind your back and mentally tag you as someone most likely to drop out... I know you cannot understand this - in your mind your computer game time has made you a pilot (not, sonny... Absolutely NOT) - and that I think is one of the major problems yo have created for yourself...

denny-o (older than dirt)
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If you would read more in depth you would have seen that I thoughtfully and thoroughly added that flight simulators are no substitute. I never said that " I have this much time in FSX in twins and HP singles so therefore I am a Top Gun pilot that should solo at no less than three, maybe four hours. I know everything that there is to know because I played a game."

When I play FSX it's more of a design test bed for random one off ultralights that I make, just to see what it MIGHT, MIGHT fly like if my FSDesign aircraft came to life. I will have to entirely remove this comparison due to people that jump to conclusions and fail before looking at what was stated.

I have had a demo flight in a Red Bird FMX and it is still not even close to the real thing, yet I could sub 50hrs for a commercial in it or 2.5 for my private. It's the same thing as MSFSX but blessed by the FAA.
 
Funny thing happens when we go to make dreams realities; often we discover the dreams were really nightmares.
 
Jeanie said:
I think it's not uncommon for 16 almost 17 year old boys to vent when frustrated. And I feel it's important that we are mindful to make this student pilot section of the forum a safe place for students of all ages and experience levels to express themselves. He has gotten good feedback and will no doubt follow through when he can. I would imagine that all of us experienced frustrations with learning plateaus and just having a hard time while obtaining our ratings and some of us took time to step back, evaluate our situation and then continue accordingly.
I think that suggesting that a young man who is home schooled and trying to earn money to pay for decent instruction to use the money to get laid is inappropriate although maybe it was meant as a joke.
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Thank you very much! I did not expect such harsh replies or PM's calling me a baby or saying goodbye and good riddance. I came to this section hoping that some people would just remember how much CFI's mean and what that has to do with the number of pilots in general without being thrust out into the trash bin but, as my lit teacher loved to say, "You (I) have failed to provide adequate reasoning due to a lack evidence organized in such a manner as to obtain your reader's attention and therefor have failed."

I greatly appreciate all of the (Positive) help and suggestions from everyone though and I'll put them to work. I vented some anger and frustration and I think that I can re-title this thread.

(I went to the shooting range as well, they have airplane shaped clay targets!)
 
When I was learning to fly I vented and cried too when I was frustrated ad fed up. I just did that with my husband and my good friend. They listened and waited and I got past the angst. The problem with written forum versions of those kinds of expressions of feelings is that it is easily misunderstood by folks who don't know you and will jump to conclusions or project their own bad stuff.....
Take what's useful and let the rest roll off like water from a ducks back..... Which it sounds like you're doing.
Airplane shaped clay pigeons --- cool. I would have appreciated those long ago!
 
Jeanie said:
When I was learning to fly I vented and cried too when I was frustrated ad fed up. I just did that with my husband and my good friend. They listened and waited and I got past the angst. The problem with written forum versions of those kinds of expressions of feelings is that it is easily misunderstood by folks who don't know you and will jump to conclusions or project their own bad stuff.....
Take what's useful and let the rest roll off like water from a ducks back..... Which it sounds like you're doing.
Airplane shaped clay pigeons --- cool. I would have appreciated those long ago!
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I've cried before and I'm not afraid to admit it. I've cried on bad days when I can't get ahead of the plane or when I grew tired of runway and decided to drift and land in grass (by accident of course!)

The clay airplane pigeons are awesome. Try them! They relieve a lot of stress. They also have other novelty shapes, one guy had IRS shaped ones, FAA shaped probably exist :wink2:
 
Anymouse said:
The stuff I bolded paints a picture of a young kid that doesn't have a clue. It appears that you're 16, so probably still living at home. But I have to wonder why a 16 year old has a GED? Did it have anything to do with the reasons you listed for quitting flying?

Then I have to ask why have you had so many instructors in such a short period of time? Is it you that doesn't want to fly with them? Or is it you that they don't want to fly with? Attitude works both ways. If you decide to continue, I suggest scheduling with just one instructor. You mentioned there was one fellow that you were really impressed with. Get on HIS schedule!

Also, keep in mind that instructors need to assess where you are before they can provide instruction. So, every time you go up with a new instructor, that instructor will need to do an assessment.

The instruction is a two way street as well. Before starting up again, ask your instructor how he intends to go about instructing you. Make a plan (the CFI should already have a syllabus) and try to stick with it. You'll have stumbling blocks that you'll need to get past. Get past them and move on. Being hard headed is one of the greatest detriments to learning, and based on some of the bolded stuff, you may have that problem.

For the record, my early flight training experience isn't that much different than yours. Grew up in Greenbelt, and later New Carrollton. First two lessons at Hyde Field, then moved on to College Park. Started at 16. Rode my bike to College Park for the lessons, which other than the first two were paid for by myself.

The biggest advice I can give you, if you really want to pursue aviation, is to get your head in the game. You have to make it happen. No one will hold your hand and guide you. This goes for just about everything in life.

Good luck in whichever direction you go.
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Here's the deal with the CFI's:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=824761#post824761

I have a positive attitude toward flying. It just takes a huge blow when I decide to stick it out with one CFI and he's making me hate the entire experience. I want to learn, not joyride or be a $280 passenger for a scenic flight. I used to like him not being like my first CFI that got upset over a 20ft deviation in altitude or 5kt issue with speed (this is at 1hr of time btw), I thought that it meant that I was doing well enough that I had earned his trust. I then realized that his silence and extreme freedom is actually him not being an active teacher.
 
DavidWhite said:
If your CFI let you end up in the grass then I see why you fired them.
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That CFI and I were a bad match. I'm more of an "OH CRAP please coach me or help me save this" person and he was an "UHHHHHHHHHHHHH okay UHHH right rudder for the uhhh use some, no, pull,I,...." person. He finally took the controls unofficially. This was back in at FDK at 4 hours or so, CFI #3. He disregarded checklists and that's why I left, plus the UHHHH's.

He'll make a fine captain..."Ladies and gentlemen uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh from the flightdeck,uhhh..."
 
You're never going to find a perfect CFI. Sometimes you just gotta play with the cards you were dealt.
 
As another fellow young aviator, as David is, you learn pretty quickly that people are going to be remarkably condescending to your abilities and flight skill regardless of what it actually may be. Now, because of moving and changing airports several times I have gone through 7 CFI's and I have liked all but one, and that was merely because he was quiet and I get along with the energetic CFI's best.

I cannot say I have ever had CFI issues like this so others may interject but it may be an attitude issue. I know when I came here I thought I knew everything (as others may attest) and I got whipped into shape and I'm glad for it. I don't know about your specific situation but I'd suggest you find what you really like about aviation and focus on that, for me I like the science and mechanics behind all of it. I know others like the freedom, others like looking down upon others literally. And some people just want to go fast so really focus on what specifically you love about aviation and use that to drive you through what ever is holding you up.

If you cannot find what you love so much about aviation, then I think you already have your answer and are doing the right thing. For 90% (arbitrary) of pilots in the world it is a passion for them, and if it isn't yours then don't pursue it.

Just a lowly opinion you may take worth a grain of salt if you so choose.
 
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DavidWhite said:
You're never going to find a perfect CFI. Sometimes you just gotta play with the cards you were dealt.
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The perfect CFI is out there, just in the FAA's book. The perfect CFI in my opinion is:

On time, ideally early
Prepared
Mindful of their students challenges
Mindful of student's time and $*
Mindful of a student's limitations
Knowledgeable**
Safe
Encouraging and supportive
Cares about student progress

* By mindful of $ I mean not purposefully wasting student's money on unnecessary instruction time or doing them wrong.

Example: Don't charge me for your full 2hr block when you pulled up at 15 past the hour and I was ready to go and my logbook was signed and I was ready to pay at a quarter til the next hour! 1.5 at the most, more like 1.4, not 2.0

**Knowledgeable= Not asking company traffic in the area about what kind of CFI asks about the correct spin recovery method is preferred in the airplane that they fly? (Not my CFI but another CFI that was out at the practice area)
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Now, because of moving and changing airports several times I have gone through 7 CFI's and I have liked all but one, and that was merely because he was quiet and I get along with the energetic CFI's best.

I cannot say I have ever had CFI issues like this so others may interject but it may be an attitude issue. I know when I came here I thought I knew everything (as others may attest) and I got whipped into shape and I'm glad for it.
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In reality the majority of my CFI's left me and the schools for airline jobs. 4/6 past CFI's did so. One is now almost purely IFR,Comm, Multi, HP only and he is just impossible to get on a regular basis. He is still adding onto his CFI so he is busy. One was just purely a bad CFI, he was quiet and I had a close call with runway lights and a hill and that was the end of that.
 
You'll have lots of "close calls" it's just part of the game. Everytime something happens you can't blame your CFI and go get a new one.
 
DavidWhite said:
You'll have lots of "close calls" it's just part of the game. Everytime something happens you can't blame your CFI and go get a new one.
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I agree with this- just hope your CFI does a good job preparing you for the unexpected.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Oh I am still gonna fly that Pawnee! I have only taxied it but I am dying to get that monster airborne!
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You're never going to make it with that attitude.
And with that attitude you'll never touch my Pawnee.

It's not a monster, it's 250HP flying truck, a workhorse.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Thank you very much! I did not expect such harsh replies or PM's calling me a baby or saying goodbye and good riddance.....

I greatly appreciate all of the (Positive) help and suggestions from everyone though and I'll put them to work. I vented some anger and frustration and I think that I can re-title this thread. targets!)
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Just change schools. The BEST advice I got was to call BOTH of our local DPE's and ask them who they thought were good CFI"s that had their students ready in a normal amount of time (60 to 70 hours).
 
bigblockz8 said:
Thank you very much! I did not expect such harsh replies or PM's calling me a baby or saying goodbye and good riddance. I came to this section hoping that some people would just remember how much CFI's mean and what that has to do with the number of pilots in general without being thrust out into the trash bin but, as my lit teacher loved to say, "You (I) have failed to provide adequate reasoning due to a lack evidence organized in such a manner as to obtain your reader's attention and therefor have failed."

I greatly appreciate all of the (Positive) help and suggestions from everyone though and I'll put them to work. I vented some anger and frustration and I think that I can re-title this thread.

(I went to the shooting range as well, they have airplane shaped clay targets!)
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Hi Greg,

You want to know why 80% of the students never complete their training ?

It's because learning to fly is HARD and CHALLENGING !

Our culture of "self-entitlement" leads people to develop a negative mentality. Many young adults believe they deserve EVERYTHING without making any efforts and without paying any dues...

Flying is definitely NOT for everybody ( despite what some clueless people claim).

In order to become a pilot you must be dedicated, you need to be patient, have a lot of perseverance, you also need to be self-motivated, etc, etc...

How many people have that kind of personality in our decadent society ? Not many if you ask me...hence the high percentage of drop-outs...


My first instructor was a complete ***hole...I wasted a lot of time and money before realizing that fact.

I didn't quit - I just went on and found a better school with a great instructor.

If you REALLY want to make some progress during your flying lessons - here is what I would suggest:

1) Find a decent school and a decent instructor

2) Tell the school that you expect a thorough briefing and a thorough debriefing for EACH lesson !

3) Read the Jeppessen Private Pilot Manual ( yes - ALL of it !) - once you understand the theory ( angle of attack, relative wind, induced drag, etc....) you will DEFINITELY fly better and progress faster ( understanding WHY you are doing this and that in the cockpit)

4) Buy and watch the King ( or Jeppessen or Sporty's - it doesn't matter ) Private Pilot Training DVD's....it helped me a lot.

5) Try to fly twice a week.

6). Be PATIENT & HUMBLE....learning to fly and getting your certificate takes time, money and efforts !

P.S. - if you think that learning to fly in America is hard - you should come and try to do it in Israel...you have no idea how privileged you are.

Private Pilot training in Israel cost an average of $ 27.000 ( !!! ) - there are 7 theory exams ( 100 questions each ) and 2 flight tests with certified examiners ( most of them are former air force pilots and current airline captains - so you get an idea of the standards they demand...)

Take care

Alon
 
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Learning to fly is easy and exciting. Most people Solo in 15-20 hours. That's half a week worth of work. The rest is learning all th BS that goes with flying. The OP actually addressed a real issue. The lack of standards in pilot training. These people not only provide the initial impression of GA, but are suppose to be the embassador of GA. Unfortunately, some of them fail miserably in this category. When time is money, you expect CFIs to produce and they should!

As for flight simulators, they are very useful and the FAA allows a student to fly and learn that way. Don't they allow 20 out of 40 hours for the IFR. Also, don't most jet pilots conduct their training in Sims?

Note, I also like Cirrus and believe that the pilot population is declining because GA is not willing to adapt to today's youth. GA has the mentality, my way or the highway!! And 99% of the population has decided that flying is not worth it.
 
Wow...

Long thread, but here's my take: The OP is a Mutant Ninja High Speed, Low Drag Master on MS Flight Sim and is surprised when those lazy, good for nothing, unprofessional CFIs don't recognize this fact tout suite.

Of course there are plenty of lazy, good for nothing, unprofessional CFIs out there.

But 7 in a row?

:confused:
 
jmp470 said:
As for flight simulators, they are very useful and the FAA allows a student to fly and learn that way. Don't they allow 20 out of 40 hours for the IFR. Also, don't most jet pilots conduct their training in Sims?.
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It's the rare 150 hour PP that can split IR training 20 SIM/ 20 view-limiting device and pass the checkride and be a competent, capable IMC pilot....











FWIW I had 8 hours SIM time before the IR checkride at 41.4 hours. I was barely competent and took more training after a couple of months to really learn how to fly in the weather and the system. I'm still learning.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Here's the deal with the CFI's:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=824761#post824761

I have a positive attitude toward flying. It just takes a huge blow when I decide to stick it out with one CFI and he's making me hate the entire experience. I want to learn, not joyride or be a $280 passenger for a scenic flight. I used to like him not being like my first CFI that got upset over a 20ft deviation in altitude or 5kt issue with speed (this is at 1hr of time btw), I thought that it meant that I was doing well enough that I had earned his trust. I then realized that his silence and extreme freedom is actually him not being an active teacher.
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You need to work on your decision making skills, they suck.
 
Lots of advice here, some good, some not so good.

You need a pilot mentor. Someone that has been through it, and can offer encouragement and advice. You do NOT need someone to coddle you, but someone that can give honest feedback.

Flying is not hard to do, but the judgment that has to come with it can be difficult to obtain. Take a step back, and take a deep breath, and find someone that can help you grow up a little. If you want it enough it will happen, if not, it won't. It IS that simple.
 
jmp470 said:
Learning to fly is easy and exciting. Most people Solo in 15-20 hours. That's half a week worth of work. The rest is learning all th BS that goes with flying. The OP actually addressed a real issue. The lack of standards in pilot training. These people not only provide the initial impression of GA, but are suppose to be the embassador of GA. Unfortunately, some of them fail miserably in this category. When time is money, you expect CFIs to produce and they should!

As for flight simulators, they are very useful and the FAA allows a student to fly and learn that way. Don't they allow 20 out of 40 hours for the IFR. Also, don't most jet pilots conduct their training in Sims?

Note, I also like Cirrus and believe that the pilot population is declining because GA is not willing to adapt to today's youth. GA has the mentality, my way or the highway!! And 99% of the population has decided that flying is not worth it.
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Learning to fly is NOT easy - saying so is misleading and makes the wrong impression on people who think that learning to fly is "a piece of cake" and rapidly get disappointed and frustrated, eventually dropping out...

Student pilots need to be told the TRUTH.

Flying is NOT easy, it requires a lot of dedication, a lot of learning, skills, patience and money - BUT - if you REALLY want to learn, and are willing to fully invest yourself in the process, there are very good chances for you to succeed.
 
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