8/10 Students Leaving, My turn

Since we're exploring the realities of PPL training.

Someone off the street probably thinks a pilots license like a drivers license in that once you have it you can just go out and rent/buy and fly any single engine aircraft out there. That's what PPL ASEL says right?

Problem is after someone spends $10K they can't even rent a 172 unless their flight school also rents. If it's a 141 school then they get to wander around like a stray dog trying to find somewhere to rent with ~50-60 hours. They may find another school that rents, then of course they have to pay for yet another checkout with those instructors. So the big payoff after 3-6 months of training is being allowed to rent a trainer for $150 per hour to go to some local airport for a burger???

Compare this with any other expensive leisure activity: boating, horses, diving, skiing, golf, etc. NONE of them require even close to the expense in time and money before you can do anything with it. If we were being real when someone came in a flight school and said I want to learn to fly and take my family across the country on vacation, we should tell them to expect a year of dedicated training and about $30K and s/he will be qualified to rent a 182 for $280 per hour 3 hours minimum per day and take the family on a trip that will cost about as much as a used car in rental fees.

Like I said before, fun just isn't enough motivation by itself to keep piston GA alive.

We have to do better.
 
Swampfox201 said:
Henning I have to disagree. I received my private, instrument , commercial and CFI while I was in college. I quickly realized that if I could fly I could do anything.

GA has given me the confidence to succeed in life and without it I would be a different person for not having that experience.
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Learning to fly played a big role in restoring my self-esteem after my divorce.
 
bigblockz8 said:
At the dentist I was running late and explained that my flight went longer than anticipated. That was in early December, my dentist now has 18hrs in 172's and she loves it.
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By the way, is your dentist using the same flight school? If so, what has her experience been with the instructors there? If not, is she having better luck where she is learning?
 
Palmpilot said:
By the way, is your dentist using the same flight school? If so, what has her experience been with the instructors there? If not, is she having better luck where she is learning?
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Yup, same school. She has a different CFI, a recent hire. She's been doing more gentle stuff, I like the way that his approach sounds. He tells her to pick a point and fly to it, don't worry about anything else but going to that point. He then got her within 100ft +/- altitude wise. This is the way that I would have liked to start. I'm going to check him out and check into a club as well.
 
Alexb2000 said:
... and s/he will be qualified to rent a 182 for $280 per hour 3 hours minimum per day ...
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You talking about a brand new T182T with that outrageously high number?

'Cause a late-model C-182Q around here rents for $146/hr wet.

There was/is (?) one place renting at $129/hr wet which is probably below operating cost plus engine reserves, at current fuel prices. Maybe they have a fuel surcharge.

A 2006 T182T G1000 rents out at $191/hr wet.

http://www.aspenflyingclub.com/rates.htm

They aren't the cheapest club on the field, either.

http://www.flights-inc.com/fleet.asp?cat=3

Your number looks $100/hr off. Are things that bad where you are?
 
Henning said:
The guy who is whining about how s-tty he's being treated by the training environment is being viewed as the 'great rep' of GA because 'He really wants to learn', No, he really wants it handed to him, he doesn't want to learn, he wants to be able to fly without having to put up with anything or take control of his situation and control his training. He just wants to sit back and complain and get attention by use of the 'internet suicide threat' "I'm gonna quit!" "Who gives a flying f-k?" Quit, why should I give a rats ass about your abused sorry life? Let me tell you what, we all have our own abused and sorry life and nobody really gives a flying f- about yours. Anybody that pretends to has their own agenda and plans to use you for something in their own little self directed soap opera.

To the OP: Grow up, be a man, define the problems in your path and solve them; that's what you need to do before you continue flying, that's what a man does. Children and women complain about fairness and use melodramatic techniques to garner sympathy and attention. Until you have the maturity to accept adversity with resolution that it will require your effort and your effort alone to overcome the obstacles that you find in your path, you do not have the maturity to act as PIC. 20 years and a couple thousand hours have taught me that nature and aviation do not care in the slightest what you think is fair or what you are ready for. Aviation is going to throw things at you with no consideration or concern if you live or die, and you just have to deal with it, denying and complaining is nothing but a waste of time and effort; may as well just get out of the habit now. Like I said, nobody wants to hear it and it makes you sound like a petulant child and will not be well received in the workplace.
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No disrespect Sir but, there is no need, nor justification for such a response. This reply is totally unwarranted. I only voice my problem because I doubt that I am the only one that this has happened to. I am certain that there are much worse experiences that don't even compare to mine.

The majority are not self inflicted situations. Sure, stupidity keeps us from moving on and realizing the issue but we are not people with 20 YEARS experience and nine times out of 10, we do not have the monetary resources not to just up and move on. It is a GREAT deterrent when you save up for months (not an exaggeration) for a couple flights and then you don't get what you paid for.

If I sold you a yacht (something I know that you know about) and then while "training" you on how to operate it I just say "Oh this makes it go, drive it like a car but you'll figure it out eventually" while I am charging hundred's for the "training" session, you would not be too pleased. Then when you get upset over the treatment and seek help and you're told to stop complaining, it is useless.

You essentially attacking me does nothing and if anything gives an even stronger impression of the type of people in GA. GA is supposed to be inviting and welcoming to all.

I WANT TO LEARN but it is a LITTLE HARD when my hard EARNED money is wasted on crappy instruction. I don't want it handed to me. When I get tired of it and TRY to voice my concerns over the same situation occurring to others what happens?

I AM ATTACKED!

Why should you give a rat's a**? You're a pilot aren't you? A GA pilot correct? That's why you should care. You wouldn't let me tag your house would you? While I'm at it can I urinate on your lawn as well?

I do wonder if you would similarly attack a grown adult? Is it because you assume that all teenagers are slackers that want everything handed to them without working for it? If so then for the record, I am not. I do as much as possible to save money or get into programs in order to LEARN TO FLY.

Just a little FYI: I used to save my $4 of breakfast/lunch money while doing others' homework for a couple of bucks just so that I could give my mom the gas money to drive me to the airport and have a bit more flying money.
Gas= Not my problem but sure enough I freely and happily gave up all but dinner JUST TO GET TO THE AIRPORT, you know, the place where you LEARN.

I came to "Pilot Training A conference for Pilots in Training..." hoping to at least let the issue be known but if I am going to be attacked and ignored, or simply written off as a self-righteous snot nosed brat, then what is the point?

I never said that I want pity. I never mentioned my life. I mentioned my experience, as part of a statistic, in order to just get some people thinking about what POSITIVE steps to take in order to positively progress and develop the GA training environment. I am student #XXXXX and this is my issue. I am also a human and similar to all other humans, I do not appreciate being attacked, defamed, or met with a condescending attitude.

You have experience and I do not, I'll give you that. At the same time I have an experience that you do not have. I would (and I have) listen to you with an open mind. I would also comment constructively and if I disagree I would argue my point in a CIVILIZED manner and if you don't agree then so be it.

I can learn from your experience and you could learn from my inexperience.

I understand your advice and it hasn't fallen upon deaf ears. However I do NOT appreciate the manner in which you conveyed it at all. :nono:

I did not realize that I was in bell bottoms and tye dye while walking into a Biker bar.:dunno:
 
denverpilot said:
You talking about a brand new T182T with that outrageously high number?

'Cause a late-model C-182Q around here rents for $146/hr wet.

There was/is (?) one place renting at $129/hr wet which is probably below operating cost plus engine reserves, at current fuel prices. Maybe they have a fuel surcharge.

A 2006 T182T G1000 rents out at $191/hr wet.

http://www.aspenflyingclub.com/rates.htm

They aren't the cheapest club on the field, either.

http://www.flights-inc.com/fleet.asp?cat=3

Your number looks $100/hr off. Are things that bad where you are?
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That's the only numbers I have from the school next to the FBO I use when I'm in Dallas. Your market seems like a bargain in comparison with some nice aircraft. These guys in Dallas get $340 per hour for a 79' Duchess!!! I do hear a lot of pilots complain about the cost and availability of rentals beyond a 172. Maybe I'll just tell them to move to CO.
 
Greg - Sorry for your experiences. Go back to page 1-3 and read the comments. We feel your pain. I do at least. Crappy instruction is "around" but their are good instructors - if memory serves Jeannie offered her services. This web board goes ballistic and on rants around page 4. We're on page 7 of the "same" topic. It just goes off on tangents and others pick up and some replies are about what someone else wrote. Go back read the comments on the first couple pages....take some time and find someone you fits your style. Getting a license isn't a race. Only 2% of Americans are pilots. Figure out if you want to be in that statistic. As I said before I'm still a student and I've been through 3 instructors. If you want to discuss "offline" you can send me a PM. I log into this thing about twice a day. Or come to the chat room around 7 EST and discuss this topic.
 
Henning said:
Ahh yes, I'm such a horrible spokesman for GA with over 20 years of flying and I'm on my fourth round of airplane ownership giving a point of view of what I've seen happen over and over. I tell the truth and you say I am a crappy spokesman... what does that say about the realities of aviation when you have to uses lies a deceit to 'sell' it? Blowing smoke up someones a$$ to get them to spend more money under false pretense does no favors to GA.

The guy who is whining about how s-tty he's being treated by the training environment is being viewed as the 'great rep' of GA because 'He really wants to learn', No, he really wants it handed to him, he doesn't want to learn, he wants to be able to fly without having to put up with anything or take control of his situation and control his training. He just wants to sit back and complain and get attention by use of the 'internet suicide threat' "I'm gonna quit!" "Who gives a flying f-k?" Quit, why should I give a rats ass about your abused sorry life? Let me tell you what, we all have our own abused and sorry life and nobody really gives a flying f- about yours. Anybody that pretends to has their own agenda and plans to use you for something in their own little self directed soap opera.

To the OP: Grow up, be a man, define the problems in your path and solve them; that's what you need to do before you continue flying, that's what a man does. Children and women complain about fairness and use melodramatic techniques to garner sympathy and attention. Until you have the maturity to accept adversity with resolution that it will require your effort and your effort alone to overcome the obstacles that you find in your path, you do not have the maturity to act as PIC. 20 years and a couple thousand hours have taught me that nature and aviation do not care in the slightest what you think is fair or what you are ready for. Aviation is going to throw things at you with no consideration or concern if you live or die, and you just have to deal with it, denying and complaining is nothing but a waste of time and effort; may as well just get out of the habit now. Like I said, nobody wants to hear it and it makes you sound like a petulant child and will not be well received in the workplace.
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I'm not sure what the whole "amabassador" thing is about. Whatever.
But, for some reason, I really like your second two paragraphs. :yes:
 
JoeSelch said:
I'm not sure what the whole "amabassador" thing is about. Whatever.
But, for some reason, I really like your second two paragraphs. :yes:
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I have often thought that it is "hard" for some for a reason. It wasn't for me, I'll be honest. Challenging? Yes. Difficult? No. But, I had ONE CFI throughout my six months of training. I think that is important. However, to get it done, one must have to be a bit driven, and just jump through all the hoops. Once you get the little plastic card (piece of paper for me), the real lessons begin.

I think Henning nailed it.
 
Greg - I think I mentioned this earlier but I was "attacked" too when I joined POA (no it was not by Henning).

Please stick around and don't let one or two people upset you. If pilots are on this site, for the most part, they are here to share experiences and learn from one another and have a place to "talk aviation" when they can't with their non-pilot friends.

I think as a student pilot you will be able to help other student pilots, whether you know you are doing it or not, just by posting about your training.
 
Anthony said:
I have often thought that it is "hard" for some for a reason. It wasn't for me, I'll be honest. Challenging? Yes. Difficult? No. But, I had ONE CFI throughout my six months of training. I think that is important. However, to get it done, one must have to be a bit driven, and just jump through all the hoops. Once you get the little plastic card (piece of paper for me), the real lessons begin.
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I'm guessing you were not 16. I also think that some people tend to forget what they were feeling at the time as that time recedes into the past. As I mentioned before, I was surprised to see what I had written at the time when I reread it many years later.
 
steingar said:
Poor Kimberly. Some nasty people even went so far a suggesting she was a fictitious person!
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Silly I didn't mean that kind of attack. Some pilot suggested if my hair fell out of place I'd stall an airplane and kill us all. Or something. It was long ago, I was a student pilot, I don't remember exactly what happened, it is over now.
 
steingar said:
Poor Kimberly. Some nasty people even went so far a suggesting she was a fictitious person!
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And now that I met Troy some people should believe I'm real and stop saying I photoshop all the pilots on POA into my photos!
 
Alexb2000 said:
I hear you, I get the same reactions. I just had a buddy I took with me on a fishing trip in my plane express a lot of interest in flying. He was really excited, started looking on Controller, asking all kinds of questions. Then he got home talked to the wife about a $200,000 airplane, $20,000 per year to operate it, etc. She said you must be out of our mind to want a "toy" that expensive. Wah, wah, wah, down the drain with yet another hopeful pilot.

It has to be more than just fun to get someone to step over the line in most cases.
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When I talk to people about learning to fly (I do lots of Young Eagles and end up explaining to the parents) that yes, there is an initial expense and no, it's not dirt cheap. But pick any car out there, and there's a perfectly good airplane for that same price. No, it won't be the newest off the assembly line with the latest technology and gadgets, but it's an airplane and you learn to fly it and go places.
 
fgcason said:
If you can have everything, you forget what it’s like to need. And if you’ve forgotten what it's like to need, you can never learn what you need to live. And you can never live if you don't put absolutely every bit of who you are into your passion no matter how difficult it is.

It's a big day tomorrow. It's always a big day tomorrow. Skip the little ones.
If you want to learn to fly real airplanes, make it happen.
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Fantastic philosophy, thank you!
 
murphey said:
When I talk to people about learning to fly (I do lots of Young Eagles and end up explaining to the parents) that yes, there is an initial expense and no, it's not dirt cheap. But pick any car out there, and there's a perfectly good airplane for that same price. No, it won't be the newest off the assembly line with the latest technology and gadgets, but it's an airplane and you learn to fly it and go places.
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So what's your success rate getting parents to actually buy a plane and begin training?

BTW- Must be some VERY nice cars in your parking lot.
 
murphey said:
Huh? There's a chat room here?
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Upper right corner of this web page you should see a link labeled "Live Chat".

I've not yet tried it. Last time I used a live chat feature on a computer I used a Teletype to converse.
 
Alexb2000 said:
So what's your success rate getting parents to actually buy a plane and begin training?

BTW- Must be some VERY nice cars in your parking lot.
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My parents bought me a plane about 40 hours into my training. I'm one lucky guy.

(and for the record we have a 2007 Civic, 2005 dodge 2500, and I drive a 1993 Ford Taurus)
 
There have been a couple of lucky girls that got planes. One soloed (in the plane that I was waiting on) and when she taxied back, there was a freaking Mooney waiting for her. A MOONEY! Nice little bow on it was a great touch. Unfortunately she had to give it up for a 152, too much plane for her.

I was jealous to say the least...
 
bigblockz8 said:
There have been a couple of lucky girls that got planes. One soloed (in the plane that I was waiting on) and when she taxied back, there was a freaking Mooney waiting for her. A MOONEY! Nice little bow on it was a great touch. Unfortunately she had to give it up for a 152, too much plane for her.

I was jealous to say the least...
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Unless you are about as smart as a sea cucumber a Mooney shouldnt be difficult - perhaps an extra 5 or 10 hours.

I do not believe this.
 
My transition from Cessnas to a Mooney M20C was a whopping 2.3 hours, and that was because we flew somewhere to lunch, as I recall. I did have retract time in a 172RG prior to it, so had the "gear down" habit built already at that time, but the Mooney was a piece of cake. I should have flown it more to more places back when I had access to it. It was tight for me, but it scooted on very little gas.
 
I soloed a 210 with 4.8 complex time and 1.0 in type. (this one had the big engine)

I cant imagine a Mooney would be much (if any) worse. Especially considering the 210 has 100 hp more than a mooney.
 
Alexb2000 said:
So what's your success rate getting parents to actually buy a plane and begin training?

BTW- Must be some VERY nice cars in your parking lot.
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On TAP there's are 10 cessna 152 or 150's ranging from $7K to $20K. My 2007 Ford cost $17K new.

Even some of the faculty at the local university with an aviation/aerospace program explain to the incoming students that it's worth 3 or 4 of them going in together and buying a trainer ($5K each would get something useful) that would take them thru instrument and the CFI, then they can sell it and probably not lose much money.
 
bigblockz8 said:
There have been a couple of lucky girls that got planes. One soloed (in the plane that I was waiting on) and when she taxied back, there was a freaking Mooney waiting for her. A MOONEY! Nice little bow on it was a great touch. Unfortunately she had to give it up for a 152, too much plane for her.

I was jealous to say the least...
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Hm - new concept.

Dad: Honey, what do you want for your 17th birthday? A new car? What color?
Her: No Pops, how about an airplane? Nice little late model Mooney?
Dad: Sure, honey...I'll call the salesman tomorrow, and you can go see what's on the lot.
 
murphey said:
Hm - new concept.

Dad: Honey, what do you want for your 17th birthday? A new car? What color?
Her: No Pops, how about an airplane? Nice little late model Mooney?
Dad: Sure, honey...I'll call the salesman tomorrow, and you can go see what's on the lot.
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I bought the story until the part where they traded it for a 152.
 
bigblockz8 said:
There have been a couple of lucky girls that got planes. One soloed (in the plane that I was waiting on) and when she taxied back, there was a freaking Mooney waiting for her. A MOONEY! Nice little bow on it was a great touch. Unfortunately she had to give it up for a 152, too much plane for her.

I was jealous to say the least...
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There will ALWAYS be someone else that has started life with a better set of cards. Appreciate what you were given and make the best of it. Work harder and never settle and you will come out ahead of the lazy no matter how much money they started with in their trust fund. There is no better feeling then paving your own way.

Don't be jealous of those that have a better hand then you right now, because there is someone looking at you right now equally jealous.

People cannot control what they were given and only a fool wouldn't use the tools and resources they had available. Don't be jealous of anyone. Respect and connect with those that work hard and have ambitious dreams. You'll accelerate past the lazy (which is the majority).

I surround myself with people that realize the above. Do that and the sky is the limit.
 
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jesse said:
There will ALWAYS be someone else that has started life with a better set of cards. Appreciate what you were given and make the best of it. Work harder and never settle and you will come out ahead of the lazy no matter how much money they started with in their trust fund. There is no better feeling then paving your own way.

Don't be jealous of those that have a better hand then you right now, because there is someone looking at you right now equally jealous.

People cannot control what they were given and only a fool wouldn't use the tools and resources they had available. Don't be jealous of anyone. Respect and connect with those that work hard and have ambitious dreams. You'll accelerate past the lazy (which is the majority).

I surround myself with people that realize the above. Do that and the sky is the limit.
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Amen to that.

A (now former) brother-in-law once said to me, "Well, it's nice that you got that lucky break.."

I replied, "Lucky break?" There is no such thing, and if there is, notice it goes to those who prepare and work their a$$ off?"
 
Luck is the combination of preperation, and opportunity. You make your own "luck".
 
Henning said:
<snip>Quit, why should I give a rats ass about your abused sorry life? Let me tell you what, we all have our own abused and sorry life and nobody really gives a flying f- about yours. Anybody that pretends to has their own agenda and plans to use you for something in their own little self directed soap opera.

To the OP: Grow up, be a man, define the problems in your path and solve them; that's what you need to do before you continue flying, that's what a man does. Children and women complain about fairness and use melodramatic techniques to garner sympathy and attention. </snip>
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Henning -
Uncalled for personal attack and really over the top, even for you.
- Peggy
 
jesse said:
There will ALWAYS be someone else that has started life with a better set of cards. Appreciate what you were given and make the best of it. Work harder and never settle and you will come out ahead of the lazy no matter how much money they started with in their trust fund. There is no better feeling then paving your own way.

Don't be jealous of those that have a better hand then you right now, because there is someone looking at you right now equally jealous.

People cannot control what they were given and only a fool wouldn't use the tools and resources they had available. Don't be jealous of anyone. Respect and connect with those that work hard and have ambitious dreams. You'll accelerate past the lazy (which is the majority).

I surround myself with people that realize the above. Do that and the sky is the limit.
Click to expand...

The other night I was watching Sara on FWA getting her Caravan flight, and I said "That girl is living MY life" out loud. My wife gave me an evil look, because she felt unappreciated. It's normal to want things. It's normal to be envious of those who already have what you want, especially if it seemed to come easy to them. It's STUPID to let those feelings drive your life and decisions, because you waste time wishing you were something else when you could spend that time becoming something else. And even if you don't actually become the something else you planned to be, you'll find that the journey was worthwhile anyway.
 
DavidWhite said:
I cant imagine a Mooney would be much (if any) worse. Especially considering the 210 has 100 hp more than a mooney.
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Ever flown a mooney ? They are quite different from any of the Cessna high-wings.

Trade-down for a 152 would make little sense, trade-down to a 182T a lot.
 
DavidWhite said:
Unless you are about as smart as a sea cucumber a Mooney shouldnt be difficult - perhaps an extra 5 or 10 hours.

I do not believe this.
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Cost wise. Daddy bought it but she still had to fuel and fix it. I think it gets the same in cruise as a 172 does doing pattern work though. Worth noting that she's in her early 20's and she is (or was) in college. The 152 is based over at College Park, next time I'm down there I'll get a picture and post it. The Mooney is at KGAI,I think her dad just kept it and got her a 152, I'll also get a pic of it.
 
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jesse said:
There will ALWAYS be someone else that has started life with a better set of cards. Appreciate what you were given and make the best of it. Work harder and never settle and you will come out ahead of the lazy no matter how much money they started with in their trust fund. There is no better feeling then paving your own way.

Don't be jealous of those that have a better hand then you right now, because there is someone looking at you right now equally jealous.

People cannot control what they were given and only a fool wouldn't use the tools and resources they had available. Don't be jealous of anyone. Respect and connect with those that work hard and have ambitious dreams. You'll accelerate past the lazy (which is the majority).

I surround myself with people that realize the above. Do that and the sky is the limit.
Click to expand...

Good one Jesse.
 
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