8/10 Students Leaving, My turn

As long as you do it aware and willingly, spend all on it you desire. It's people who are upset and complaining, hey, this crap is way too expensive if it's gonna pi$$ you off. Might as well get something you enjoy for your recreation dollar. Flying is really a niche market activity.
 
Am I the only one who doesn't think that obtaining a PPL was difficult?

Piece of cake if you ask me, maybe too easy. About 10 nights of half ass studying then just flying through the motions. Of course, I was in my 30s and actually had to work hard for a few years for other things. I can see how a teenage kid might think a CFI is bad (and some are, but that's the reality you are facing) or think that getting a PPL ticket is "hard" having never had to face the realities of life yet.

OP, stick in there get your ticket even if you don't want to. Life's not going to get much easier, this would be a good lesson in sucking it up and getting the job done in spite of other people. When you show up for your first day of work at your first real job, 80% of the people standing around you that day will be just as incompetent and less motivated as the worst CFI you can dig up. Don't be one of them.
 
No, getting my PPL was easy cheesy! 44 hours after the checkride. I had 4 instructors and told them they I had 1 month to get me to my PPL... I flew multiple times per day and dedicated myself to it... I loved it, still do.... even thought I haven't flown since July 2009 and wont anytime soon because I don't know which plane my family needs and I will not rent one. My friends who got their license after me and looked towards to me for advice recieved this:

1) Get your license at a Class C (thus, you are required to speak on the radio since day one)
2) Don't take out a loan for your license, instead figure out how much it would cost to pay that loan off and save that per month. When you have cash to afford your lessons, you never have to look at how much you are spending!!!!!
3) Fly as much as humanily possible during the week and dedicate yourself to it. You will absorb the information faster and your muscles will start to develop finer movements the more you fly. Pre-coordinate this with your CFI... if he says he cannot do it... Find another one!
4) Enjoy yourself and go on cross countries right from the beginning. That way, you immediately see a ROI and get to know what flying is all about!
5) Understand that you are spending $10K and that its ok to make demands of your CFI. If he doesn't meet your expectations, fire him. Just like you would any contractor....
6) Take control of your learning.... Don't expect your CFI to spoon feed you... It's your license to freedom
7) Understand that you will never know it all and will always make mistakes..... Just don't make the same mistake twice!!!!!
8) Be conservative and don't get in over your head... Trust your gut... If you think, I shouldn't be doing this... DON'T
 
Henning said:
One is nourishment at $10 a pound, the other is entertainment at $120 an hour...
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I view $120/hr entertainment as the same cost as a really good shrink, but not nearly as much fun. And depending what I'm doing, it can be deductible, too!
 
denverpilot said:
And what's wrong with me spending my money on $120/hr entertainment?
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Nothing.

You could buy a good seat at some Broadway shows that for that hourly price.

Or take two people to a really fancy restaurant with lots of "atmosphere" and maybe spend that much per hour (unless it is a French restaurant, in which case your hourly rate goes way done.)

Or take two people up into the atmosphere in a small plane at that rate.

Give my regards to Broadway - cause I'd rather be flying.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Or take two people to a really fancy restaurant with lots of "atmosphere"
Give my regards to Broadway - cause I'd rather be flying.
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This is me at that restaurant: :yawn: :sleep: I'd rather be flying too.
 
Flying is better and as much as I know I must have loved it to stick with my training and go into debt to finish..... I love it ten times more now that I am a real pilot. It just keeps getting better and better and I dream of flying every day and night. Woke up the other day after taking a taxi lesson in a taildragger in my dream on dirt / grass... was probably manipulating the rudder pedals in my sleep for all I know. A new version of sleep walking - sleep flying.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Actually, someones life will depend on it from solo on. Might as well get familiar with the concept.
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No, the point was that if they never learn how to fly, they'll live. Yes, once you make the plunge and decide to learn how to fly, your life does depend on it. But, that wasn't the point.

What is good marketing for GA?
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Anything that gets people to the airport and taking lessons, or at least trying it out.

When people find out I'm a pilot, I generally get one of two reactions. Maybe 20% will say, "Isn't that dangerous?" while the other 80% says, "That is SO COOL! I've always wanted to do that!" If so many people have "always wanted to do that," then why are we reaching so few of them?

I believe that the majority of people, at some point in their life, decided it would be cool to learn to fly someday. Then life happens, it gets pushed to the back corner of their mind unless a friend takes them up, or they stumble across a bustling GA airport for some reason, or whatever. I think that if there were well-done ads in mainstream media that advertised, for example, a free "what does it take to learn to fly" seminar down at the local GA field, we'd be reaching a lot more people.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Anything that gets people to the airport and taking lessons, or at least trying it out.

When people find out I'm a pilot, I generally get one of two reactions. Maybe 20% will say, "Isn't that dangerous?" while the other 80% says, "That is SO COOL! I've always wanted to do that!" If so many people have "always wanted to do that," then why are we reaching so few of them?

I believe that the majority of people, at some point in their life, decided it would be cool to learn to fly someday. Then life happens, it gets pushed to the back corner of their mind unless a friend takes them up, or they stumble across a bustling GA airport for some reason, or whatever. I think that if there were well-done ads in mainstream media that advertised, for example, a free "what does it take to learn to fly" seminar down at the local GA field, we'd be reaching a lot more people.
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I hear you, I get the same reactions. I just had a buddy I took with me on a fishing trip in my plane express a lot of interest in flying. He was really excited, started looking on Controller, asking all kinds of questions. Then he got home talked to the wife about a $200,000 airplane, $20,000 per year to operate it, etc. She said you must be out of our mind to want a "toy" that expensive. Wah, wah, wah, down the drain with yet another hopeful pilot.

It has to be more than just fun to get someone to step over the line in most cases.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
No, the point was that if they never learn how to fly, they'll live. Yes, once you make the plunge and decide to learn how to fly, your life does depend on it. But, that wasn't the point.



Anything that gets people to the airport and taking lessons, or at least trying it out.

When people find out I'm a pilot, I generally get one of two reactions. Maybe 20% will say, "Isn't that dangerous?" while the other 80% says, "That is SO COOL! I've always wanted to do that!" If so many people have "always wanted to do that," then why are we reaching so few of them?

I believe that the majority of people, at some point in their life, decided it would be cool to learn to fly someday. Then life happens, it gets pushed to the back corner of their mind unless a friend takes them up, or they stumble across a bustling GA airport for some reason, or whatever. I think that if there were well-done ads in mainstream media that advertised, for example, a free "what does it take to learn to fly" seminar down at the local GA field, we'd be reaching a lot more people.
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I am closer to 100% "cool" talkers. On my flight to 6Y9 I pulled out a sectional and the passenger next to me asked questions about flying the whole 4 hours. At the supermarket a guy handing out samples asked me how I was and I told him great due to landing a plane for the first time by myself and he talked of his flying lessons and why he quit. Most if not all people I talk to about flying are interested. Two or three weekends ago a non pilot pax followed along with me on a sectional and asked questions and when the pilot and I took her home we walked her into a flight school there to ask about intro flight prices.
 
In the women's hiking group I lead, I think only one has expressed any fear about flying, and I've promised quite a few rides. You also never know where you're going to run into another pilot. A couple of weeks ago I was getting my hair done telling my stylist about my latest adventure when the woman in the next chair remarked that she's been a student pilot for years. We talked for about 20 minutes after I was finished. It turns out she's been out of flying for a while because of a bad experience with a real lout of a CFI but is thinking about getting finished up. I gave her my first CFI's name and a glowing review, but it sounds like finances may keep her grounded a while longer.

I really think the main reason so many people don't finish the PPL is the expense. As others have said, you do have to want it really badly to be willing to spend as much money on it as it takes to become good enough at it to be safe. It know I did, I think it was in my blood and still is. I flew 250 hours the year I did my primary training, most of it solo, several times a week. The last two years I've logged over 100 hours each year, maintenance headaches every couple of months notwithstanding. Practically every night I have a dream where I'm either flying an airplane or getting one ready to fly. Many times I'm actually driving one on the road, feeling very self-conscious about "my" wings, and then I lift off into the air and soar over landscapes I've never actually seen with my waking eyes.

If you're not crazy about flying, it's about the most expensive way to waste your money that I know of. But if you are, there's really nothing in the world that can take its place.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yeah, it probably is 90/10 or better in reality, but I didn't want to overstate it.

We're not even getting 1% of the people who are interested in flying into the cockpit. :frown2:
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Right, the question is what are you going to ofer them to close the deal? What does it take to turn that interest into a parting with cash? Also, how many of them have $100k discretionary cash?
 
azure said:
...You also never know where you're going to run into another pilot.....
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"Never know" is an understatement in my experience.
My wife had no idea her aunt and grandfather were pilots until I got my license and she started her training, both lost interest shortly after getting their PPL back in the late 70s.
 
I got into aviation by learning that, as the sign read, "Any idiot can fly!" I grabbed a pamphlet and flew a week later. My mom wanted to fly but before she was going to sign up she had an encounter with turbulence in a 207 and she hates "small" airplanes now.

At the dentist I was running late and explained that my flight went longer than anticipated. That was in early December, my dentist now has 18hrs in 172's and she loves it.

Most people don't know that they can fly. Her staff have all taken intro flights now. 8/9 Love it.
 
jmp470 said:
My friends who got their license after me and looked towards to me for advice recieved this:

1) Get your license at a Class C (thus, you are required to speak on the radio since day one)
I fly in (essentially) Class B in the DC SFRA, I handle COMM
2) Don't take out a loan for your license, instead figure out how much it would cost to pay that loan off and save that per month. When you have cash to afford your lessons, you never have to look at how much you are spending!!!!!
That's why I'm complaining. No loan and earned $ wasted on CFIs that leave.
 3) Fly as much as humanily possible during the week and dedicate yourself to it. You will absorb the information faster and your muscles will start to develop finer movements the more you fly. Pre-coordinate this with your CFI... if he says he cannot do it... Find another one!
Been cancelled on 4 times in a row, 2 wx and 2 personal, didn't fly for a month
4) Enjoy yourself and go on cross countries right from the beginning. That way, you immediately see a ROI and get to know what flying is all about!
15nm ride out to a practice area over the bay and back count?
5) Understand that you are spending $10K and that its ok to make demands of your CFI. If he doesn't meet your expectations, fire him. Just like you would any contractor....
Done.
6) Take control of your learning.... Don't expect your CFI to spoon feed you... It's your license to freedom
I'll start my own lesson plans based on a decent syllabus
7) Understand that you will never know it all and will always make mistakes..... Just don't make the same mistake twice!!!!!
I've made it three times
8) Be conservative and don't get in over your head... Trust your gut... If you think, I shouldn't be doing this... DON'T
Didn't speak up and was terrified until I was sitting in the FBO, lesson learned.
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Blue=Me
 
bigblockz8 said:
I got into aviation by learning that, as the sign read, "Any idiot can fly!" I grabbed a pamphlet and flew a week later. My mom wanted to fly but before she was going to sign up she had an encounter with turbulence in a 207 and she hates "small" airplanes now.

At the dentist I was running late and explained that my flight went longer than anticipated. That was in early December, my dentist now has 18hrs in 172's and she loves it.

Most people don't know that they can fly. Her staff have all taken intro flights now. 8/9 Love it.
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It's ironic that, in spite of all the obstacles you have encountered, you're a much better ambassador for GA than Henning is!
 
Palmpilot said:
It's ironic that, in spite of all the obstacles you have encountered, you're a much better ambassador for GA than Henning is!
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I never said that I don't like it! I love it, I just hate training and dealing with all of the issues that come with a school that doesn't care and that you have to MAKE take your money.

I have encouraged as many people as I can to give it a try. My mom won't budge. My two brothers both want to fly and they (one seven, one three) both can name about 30 models of airplanes and tell you the parts of an airplane. I started a savings fund (just a couple of mason jars) for a couple lessons for them each.

I've gotten my dentist,her staff, my cousin, four of my friends, an uncle, a total stranger, and a teacher to take intro flights. In total about 18 people have tried it. All but one loved it. I felt stupid after I found out that I could learn. No clue how I was alive for 14 years and never knew this. Never thought about those small planes' purposes or costs. I assumed (like many others that I have told about flying did too) that since it costs $400 to go see my family in Hawaii that these little things must cost the same per flight, if not more. (Sadly it's kinda true...go fly dual for 2hrs.)

Of those 18 people, 1 is solo,1 is pre solo, and two are going the LSA route. More rentals= less loss= cheaper rate for me :wink2: (as well as future customers when I become a CFI)
 
bigblockz8 said:
I just hate training and dealing with all of the issues that come with...
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If you can have everything, you forget what it’s like to need. And if you’ve forgotten what it's like to need, you can never learn what you need to live. And you can never live if you don't put absolutely every bit of who you are into your passion no matter how difficult it is.

It's a big day tomorrow. It's always a big day tomorrow. Skip the little ones.
If you want to learn to fly real airplanes, make it happen.
 
I'm not sure many people would have made it here with a new CFI every couple flights. Have you looked into a flying club? It is usually more affordable than the FBO and both of my Club CFI's were enthusiastic about teaching. I'm still friends with both of them 2 years later and we fly together whenever I'm in town.
 
It's been helpful to read all the comments here. Except for the few exceptions who seemed to think that becoming a pilot was a piece of cake, I think most people have struggled in one way or another along the way, whether because of CFI issues, or money issues, or something else. It's always helpful to know that one is not alone. I think it can be counterproductive to compare our experiences with those of others, because everyone learns differently.
 
Eagle I said:
It's been helpful to read all the comments here. Except for the few exceptions who seemed to think that becoming a pilot was a piece of cake, I think most people have struggled in one way or another along the way, whether because of CFI issues, or money issues, or something else. It's always helpful to know that one is not alone. I think it can be counterproductive to compare our experiences with those of others, because everyone learns differently.
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Welcome to POA!
 
Ironic, I made my flight instructor ditch me after my instrument rating.:yikes:

Then I continued with antoher CFI for the high performance endorsment and multi engine instrument rating and all went PRETTY WELL.

As in all trades, there's competent and incompetent people.
 
Who agrees with me that Greg (the OP) would make an excellent Aviation Writer someday?
 
Lets be fair here folks:




Mtns2Skies said:
Useless is of personal opinion. In your opinion its useless but that varies from person to person. Do you make it habit to force all of your opinions on others?... Actually I know the answer to that one :rolleyes2:
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Austin its Hennings opinion I don't see where he's forcing it on anyone. Its an opinion thats all.

bigblockz8 said:
I got into aviation by learning that, as the sign read, "Any idiot can fly!" I grabbed a pamphlet and flew a week later. My mom wanted to fly but before she was going to sign up she had an encounter with turbulence in a 207 and she hates "small" airplanes now.

At the dentist I was running late and explained that my flight went longer than anticipated. That was in early December, my dentist now has 18hrs in 172's and she loves it.

Most people don't know that they can fly. Her staff have all taken intro flights now. 8/9 Love it.
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Ok so here is an example of human nature. Your upset that your CFI is late but then you are late for your dentist. Yea its annoying but it happens. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

You've really got lots of great options I hope you will take someone up on one of the offers.

Palmpilot said:
It's ironic that, in spite of all the obstacles you have encountered, you're a much better ambassador for GA than Henning is!
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Personal attacks are not needed and are an ROC violation. Lets keep it cordial. Thanks.
 
Palmpilot said:
It's ironic that, in spite of all the obstacles you have encountered, you're a much better ambassador for GA than Henning is!
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Ahh yes, I'm such a horrible spokesman for GA with over 20 years of flying and I'm on my fourth round of airplane ownership giving a point of view of what I've seen happen over and over. I tell the truth and you say I am a crappy spokesman... what does that say about the realities of aviation when you have to uses lies a deceit to 'sell' it? Blowing smoke up someones a$$ to get them to spend more money under false pretense does no favors to GA.

The guy who is whining about how s-tty he's being treated by the training environment is being viewed as the 'great rep' of GA because 'He really wants to learn', No, he really wants it handed to him, he doesn't want to learn, he wants to be able to fly without having to put up with anything or take control of his situation and control his training. He just wants to sit back and complain and get attention by use of the 'internet suicide threat' "I'm gonna quit!" "Who gives a flying f-k?" Quit, why should I give a rats ass about your abused sorry life? Let me tell you what, we all have our own abused and sorry life and nobody really gives a flying f- about yours. Anybody that pretends to has their own agenda and plans to use you for something in their own little self directed soap opera.

To the OP: Grow up, be a man, define the problems in your path and solve them; that's what you need to do before you continue flying, that's what a man does. Children and women complain about fairness and use melodramatic techniques to garner sympathy and attention. Until you have the maturity to accept adversity with resolution that it will require your effort and your effort alone to overcome the obstacles that you find in your path, you do not have the maturity to act as PIC. 20 years and a couple thousand hours have taught me that nature and aviation do not care in the slightest what you think is fair or what you are ready for. Aviation is going to throw things at you with no consideration or concern if you live or die, and you just have to deal with it, denying and complaining is nothing but a waste of time and effort; may as well just get out of the habit now. Like I said, nobody wants to hear it and it makes you sound like a petulant child and will not be well received in the workplace.
 
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Henning said:
The guy who is whining about how s-tty he's being treated by the training environment is being viewed as the 'great rep' of GA because 'He really wants to learn',...
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My thought that he's a good ambassador for GA was based on the people he's gotten interested in it in a short time. I don't know whether he "really wants to learn." It sounds like he's currently in the process of deciding that.
 
Henning said:
That's why it's called a reality check. Reality is that GA is super expensive and nearly useless.
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Henning I have to disagree. I received my private, instrument , commercial and CFI while I was in college. I quickly realized that if I could fly I could do anything.

GA has given me the confidence to succeed in life and without it I would be a different person for not having that experience.
 
Henning said:
Ahh yes, I'm such a horrible spokesman for GA with over 20 years of flying and I'm on my fourth round of airplane ownership giving a point of view of what I've seen happen over and over.
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If I went to one World's fair, a picnic, and a Rodeo, would that make my opinion better than anyone else?

The guy who is whining about how s-tty he's being treated by the training environment is being viewed as the 'great rep' of GA because 'He really wants to learn', No, he really wants it handed to him, he doesn't want to learn, he wants to be able to fly without having to put up with anything or take control of his situation and control his training.
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Your summary does not match what the OP related. It does not match the confirmation that others have related to equally atrocious training service by some CFIs and flight schools. It entirely glosses over the entirety of the 80% dropout rate.

My own response to him was a simple confirmation that it was reasonable to stop training for now, given all that had happened to him. He responded positively.

He just wants to sit back and complain and get attention by use of the 'internet suicide threat' "I'm gonna quit!" "Who gives a flying f-k?" Quit, why should I give a rats ass about your abused sorry life? Let me tell you what, we all have our own abused and sorry life and nobody really gives a flying f- about yours. Anybody that pretends to has their own agenda and plans to use you for something in their own little self directed soap opera.
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Um. Hmm. Absolutely no diplomatic way to respond. Pretty much self-incriminating is all I can say.

Children and women complain about fairness and use melodramatic techniques to garner sympathy and attention.
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Probably not wise to drink and post, lest the inner misogynist be revealed. Some B vitamins might help with the hang-over, but I've no advice on curing anything else that post will cause.

Until you have the maturity to accept adversity with resolution that it will require your effort and your effort alone to overcome the obstacles that you find in your path, you do not have the maturity to act as PIC. 20 years and a couple thousand hours have taught me that nature and aviation do not care in the slightest what you think is fair or what you are ready for. Aviation is going to throw things at you with no consideration or concern if you live or die, and you just have to deal with it, denying and complaining is nothing but a waste of time and effort; may as well just get out of the habit now. Like I said, nobody wants to hear it and it makes you sound like a petulant child and will not be well received in the workplace.
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Good point on adversity, though unfortunately it doesn't look like you handle the adversity of a little criticism very well yet, either.
 
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