14 aircraft violate VIP TFR, with 7 intercepts

Lindberg said:
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I am serious …. I still remember the total cluster-fxxk Chicago downtown turned into that one time when Obama was in town.
It was like a minor natural disaster ( well, to be fair, Chicago is always one step away from some kind of disaster anyway ..)
 
Warmi said:
I am serious …. I still remember the total cluster-fxxk Chicago downtown turned into that one time when Obama was in town.
It was like a minor natural disaster ( well, to be fair, Chicago is always one step away from some kind of disaster anyway ..)
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Then you picked a very ironic metaphor.

Category:Murdered Roman emperors - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Racerx said:
But what about the local flights where you don't get a full briefing. Say going from 10c to 06c at pilot Pete's for a Sunday dinner at 4:30. 10c is out of the tfr (I think, could be wrong). Check notams on Foreflight and send it. Do you always get a full briefing for local flights?
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If there is a TFR within the next several days in my area, I make sure to use flight following for all local flights, just in case the effective times have shifted. I don't count on what I saw on my computer a few hours ago to be still true right now. Additionally, if I don't see any airplanes flying, that is another clue, although that is not a very reliable indicator.
 
JScarry said:
To me it indicates that the TFRs are security theater.
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You don’t think the USAF is capable of identifying threats? TFRs reduce clutter. TFR enforcement is an exercise. TFR defense isn’t something I’d like to be on the receiving end of.
 
I was returing from KSUX to CHI Sunday late afternoon and heard all the "Air Defense Fighter" calls and was reminded by ATC to not shutoff my transponder until ON THE GROUND. Had I been VFR I would have been in violation. The "Late tail for departure" would have caught me as it was not on my briefing upon departure from SUX (to 1C5, 2.5 hours).

This is slippery stuff!
 
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I'd had plans to fly into 06C fri evening which I ended up canceling due to a flat tire but I remember noting the yellow pre-TFR rings around Chicago, I think I also saw some alerts in my email. Those are great and you'd think with all that warning this wouldn't happen but if they're just going to arbitrarily change the schedule on people what can you do?

If you're flying into the area being on flight following (or being IFR) is a pretty good defense. I have had a controller literally say "The TFR isn't in effect... except it actually is. Someone got the date wrong." IDK what you can do about it if you're flying out of an uncontrolled field in one of these places though. Is there any kind of requirement for warning time if a TFR gets extended or pops up? At least if we knew to get updated briefings within xx minutes before departure it would be something.
 
Will in twenty years or so Positive Control be nationwide or at least on the east coast and west coast? Ground up to FL180?
 
cowman said:
I'd had plans to fly into 06C fri evening which I ended up canceling due to a flat tire but I remember noting the yellow pre-TFR rings around Chicago,
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Flew into 06C several times. Pretty sure once during Obama TFR but I always filed IFR.
 
cowman said:
I'd had plans to fly into 06C fri evening which I ended up canceling due to a flat tire but I remember noting the yellow pre-TFR rings around Chicago, I think I also saw some alerts in my email. Those are great and you'd think with all that warning this wouldn't happen but if they're just going to arbitrarily change the schedule on people what can you do?
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Monitor. Guard. Easy insurance.
 
NEVER trust only FF or any of the automated stuff. I got AMOC calling my phone when one of my neighbors blasted off into a presidential TFR. He had even called one hour earlier to MAKE SURE that the TFR didn't go into effect until well after his departure, but they moved it up after he called. Oddly enough DHS was fine with the explanation. The FAA raked him over the coals for several months for something that he wasn't responsible for.
 
And that right there is the problem. A pilot can take all the due diligence possible but all it takes is one person on the notification side to screw up and you have a whole set of pilots caught with their pants down...and it still becomes the pilot's fault somehow.
 
Stewartb said:
You don’t think the USAF is capable of identifying threats? TFRs reduce clutter. TFR enforcement is an exercise. TFR defense isn’t something I’d like to be on the receiving end of.
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You’ve proved my point. Even with reduced clutter they only intercepted half of the planes. Do you really think that a dozen GA airplanes would be capable of finding, let alone harming a specific person in a football stadium, the middle of a ballroom, or on the road. The Ukrainians might be able to do that but GA pilots aren’t that good.
 
JScarry said:
You’ve proved my point. Even with reduced clutter they only intercepted half of the planes. Do you really think that a dozen GA airplanes would be capable of finding, let alone harming a specific person in a football stadium, the middle of a ballroom, or on the road. The Ukrainians might be able to do that but GA pilots aren’t that good.
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I probably shouldn't say this (even though it's a pretty obvious "solution"), but a spotter on the ground would make it much easier to hit a specific target hiding in a stadium.
 
JScarry said:
You’ve proved my point. Even with reduced clutter they only intercepted half of the planes. Do you really think that a dozen GA airplanes would be capable of finding, let alone harming a specific person in a football stadium, the middle of a ballroom, or on the road. The Ukrainians might be able to do that but GA pilots aren’t that good.
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I doubt 100% interception was ever intended. Especially with ADS-B identification. Even without, they’ll know where the offender went before he lands. Most interceptions are for show. A real threat will get eliminated.

We get TFRs pretty regularly in the Anchorage area. I’ve watched F-22s do interceptions and escorts out of the TFR area. Embarrassing. Nobody wants to be that guy, and that demonstrates the effectiveness.
 
Stewartb said:
You don’t think the USAF is capable of identifying threats? TFRs reduce clutter. TFR enforcement is an exercise. TFR defense isn’t something I’d like to be on the receiving end of.
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The USAF is quite capable of identifying the threat but the civilian leadership is unlikely to give them a blanket "warning red - weapons free" nor make a kill decision inside the decision window for an errant GA.

When/if they do and off a family in an Archer returning from vacation then the whole security theater will change.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Responsible airport managers will post signs next to the runway warning people that the TFR is in effect.
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I have literally never heard of or seen this. Can you please provide an example? I know of zero legal obligation on the airport to do such a thing, and no such sign exists in the FARs or ACs.

AV8R_87 said:
And/Or put it in the AWOS.
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Not all AWOS have the ability to add any type of message beyond the Automated Weather Observation. Very poor planning to expect otherwise. ASOS/AWOS are not an ATIS.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have literally never heard of or seen this.
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I've never seen them next to the runway, but there was a stack of them on the FBO counter this weekend, but I wasn't around the airport a few weeks ago when the President was in town, so I don't know if they were posted up then. The last time I remember seeing signs actually posted in the FBO was when we had all five living ex-presidents in town.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have literally never heard of or seen this. Can you please provide an example? I know of zero legal obligation on the airport to do such a thing, and no such sign exists in the FARs or ACs.



Not all AWOS have the ability to add any type of message beyond the Automated Weather Observation. Very poor planning to expect otherwise. ASOS/AWOS are not an ATIS.
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Watsonville, CA - KWVI. After a local pilot violated a presidential TFR, the manager had signs made stating “TFR in effect - check NOTAMS”. Staff placed them on every gate to the field when one was active. I think they also did a mass email to all hangar tenants when one was pending.
 
I actually got a phone call from Tyndall AFB warning me that my airport (the "airport manager" phone line rings my cell) would be affected by a nearby presidential TFR the next day. I sent an email blast out to our users to remind them to check their notams. We also have a text message blast procedure, but we only use that for things that directly affect the airport (like if we need to suddenly close the runway).
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have literally never heard of or seen this. Can you please provide an example? I know of zero legal obligation on the airport to do such a thing, and no such sign exists in the FARs or ACs.
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I've never seen them on taxiways or runways, but at 3CK (Lake In The Hills, IL) there were signs are every entrance to the fenced area of the airport whenever there was a TFR in effect.
 
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