1.3 Vso for final?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Arnold, Jul 30, 2020.

?

No wind do you fly your final approach speed based on 1.3 Vso?

  1. Yes

    49 vote(s)
    49.5%
  2. Faster

    19 vote(s)
    19.2%
  3. Slower

    10 vote(s)
    10.1%
  4. Sometimes one, sometimes the other.

    13 vote(s)
    13.1%
  5. If it feels good I do it.

    8 vote(s)
    8.1%
  1. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Philadelphia Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Arnold
    No wind o you fly your final approach speed based on 1.3 Vso?
     
  2. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,800
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chemgeek
    For a normal landing (not a short field) I fly the recommended POH approach speed,which is indeed around 1.3 Vso. If you fly faster than the POH recommended speed in a no-wind condition you are asking for trouble.
     
    Huckster79 likes this.
  3. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,589
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RoscoeT
    Ha...the poll results are backwards. You don't have to watch many landings at a busy local airport to observe that about 25% of pilots fly 1.3Vso, and 75% fly faster...and nearly float out of sight down the runway before they touch down. o_O
     
    Huckster79 and chemgeek like this.
  4. AlphaMike

    AlphaMike Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2019
    Messages:
    40
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AlphaMike
    It depends on the plane. My 182 has a Sportsman STOL, VGs and a big 3 blade prop. My true VSO is under 50 knots. I can fly at 1.3 VSO on final, but it feels way too slow and if I’m shooting an approach it takes forever. I usually shoot for 85 - 90 knots on final then pull power and drop the last notch of flaps on short final. The 3 blade prop seems to slow me down very quickly and I’m over the numbers at around 55 - 60 knots. This seems to work well for me in my plane. Other (stock) planes I have flown I always shoot for 1.3 VSO if I’m coming in with full flaps on a normal landing.
     
  5. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,669
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    Yes

    What's the diff 'twixt wind and no wind? None. (if it's not gusty anyway)

    if it's gusty then add 50% of the delta WS to your approach speed.
     
    pburger likes this.
  6. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    12,110
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    yes, with every plane I've flown so far. maybe an extra 5 knots in the t-tail lance, otherwise I'm starting with 1.3.
     
  7. Low Level Flyer

    Low Level Flyer Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2020
    Messages:
    23
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Low Level Flyer
    I do in my Arrow. And I also adjust 1.3 x Vso for weight. 1.3 x Vso with full flaps at gross weight is approx 82mph and I usually cross the threshold at 75mph at the weights I typically fly.
     
  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    11,892
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Yes thereabouts. I usually shoot for 65kts down final in the Archer which is just slightly above 1.3x Vso.
     
  9. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,146
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Gardner
    Good landings are slow landings.
     
  10. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    11,814
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    1.3Vso in my plane is 69kts, and that's fine grossed up, light, I like to come in slower. Light, no wind/no turb, I've come in as slow as 60kts short final. Especially if it's short field or I'm practicing short field. Even at 69kts, the Mooney can have significant float when light. So, it depends.

    EDIT: But, I will not ever come in faster than 70kts, unless the gust is at least 10 or better.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
    Bobanna likes this.
  11. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,918
    Location:
    Kixd
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sam
    Way more people think they are doing this, than are actually doing his.

    If you don't account for the weight of the airplane you aren't at 1.3 Vs0
     
    zaitcev likes this.
  12. CRQFlier

    CRQFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    124
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CRQFlier
    I just bought a plane and over the past few days have been experimenting in the pattern with various speeds and power settings for decent rates, short final speeds, etc. I settled on 69-70 (use 70 as an easy upper visual) short final. Guess what Vso is...69.

    Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
     
  13. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    18,851
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    I fly my approach at 75-80 MPH in the Navion. This is a nice number as it gives margin over stall and is well below the gear and flap speeds. Vso is 51 MPH indicated or 54 "true indicated" (what they called calibrated back then). 1.3 Vso would be about 70 MPH (after converting to True Indicated and back) but it varies higher depending on whether the power is on or off.
     
  14. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Martin Pauly
    1.3 Vso works pretty well for me on a not-too-windy day. An exception would be landing at a large busy airport, where I fly much faster on final and bleed off speed before touchdown - knowing the first high-speed turn-off is going to be 4,000 feet or further from the threshold anyway.

    - Martin
     
  15. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Philadelphia Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Arnold
    In the Luscombe 8A Vso = 45 mph in un-accelerated fight. 1.3 x 45 mph = 58.5. I normally fly final at 65 mph at max weight. At 60 the controls are getting a bit mushier than I like. Short field I'll use 60.
     
  16. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6,521
    Location:
    Wasilla, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    No wind? In tune with the airplane? Back side of the power curve at 1.1 works well if I'm light. My loaded weight has as much to do with landing speed as wind does. How current I am in that airplane? Even more.
     
  17. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    18,851
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Yep, the Navion only needs 850 with no wind. Margy landed at IAD once in a pretty stiff headwind and got stopped and turned off in the width of the entrance taxiway. Confused the hell out of ground control when she called them. Now I figure if I can't make the turn at my house (about 2000' down the runway) without getting on the brakes, I've messed something up.
     
  18. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Martin Pauly
    Yes, it does, right until the engine quits. That's a benefit of going a bit faster - more energy gives you more options in case of an engine failure.

    - Martin
     
    N1120A likes this.
  19. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    742
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ateamer
    in a 172, no faster than 60 knots inside a half mile. If it’s light, say just me and less than half tanks, 55. In the RV-8, 62 knots. I usually keep it fairly tight and roll wings level on final at a quarter mile. At our airpark, if it’s straight in, I keep the speed up, do an overhead break (140-150 at the break, power to idle, 45 degree bank turn, continuous turn to final) and roll out on final inside a quarter mile at 62.
     
    iamtheari likes this.
  20. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,700
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    Depends on the plane. In my Cessna 140 or son in laws 172 1.3 or maybe a little slower over the fence works well, but then I round it out and stall it at the surface. The Mooney is a much different kettle of fish. I carry that much to just above the surface and bleed it off until it gets to stall speed. If I bring it in too slow I run out of lift and it can get to a point where you just can’t Slow the descent. Different wing.
     
    bflynn likes this.
  21. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,669
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    Not sure if Stewart is doing the math or not but many people likely don't understand that 1.3 VS0 IS 1.1 VS0 when lightly loaded in many planes...my last one for example:

    Capture2.JPG

    I almost always flew power off approaches. Trimmed for 80 mph abeam the numbers with 10* flaps and that typically put me at 67 to 69 over the fence with full (40*) flaps.
     
  22. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Messages:
    741
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cluemeister
    1.3 or 1.31 Whatever it takes.
     
    bflynn, Rgbeard, texasclouds and 6 others like this.
  23. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    11,276
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Well, it did say "based on" :D
     
    RoscoeT likes this.
  24. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    11,276
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    It's not so much 1.1 Vs0 as that published Vs0 is a max gross weight and like other load-based speeds, decreases as weight decreases, so 1.3 times it decreases as well.
     
  25. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6,521
    Location:
    Wasilla, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb


    My current problem is a G3X Touch doesn't register speed under 20 MPH so I really don't know what my short final and landing speed is much of the time. Fun problem to have. :)
     
  26. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,250
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pete Zaitcev
    Yes, but my factory manual does not account for it. Instead, it says:

    "To allow for a safe margin above stall speed throughout approach, hold airspeed above 90 MPH until flaps are lowered."
    "On final, trim the aircraft to fly hands-off at an approach speed of about 80 MPH."

    And that's it.
     
  27. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,669
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    Ummm...I think that's what my spreadsheet shows...:confused::rolleyes:
     
  28. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Philadelphia Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Arnold
    I've been looking to try back side of the power curve approaches, but only 110 hrs in the ship it will require more min. control speed flight time to be comfortable enough.
     
  29. brcase

    brcase Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,775
    Location:
    Boise, Idaho
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    1.3 is about the minimum the C-172 manual recommends.
    Vs (flaps up) = 47 kias, manual recommends 60-70kt approach speed (1.27-1.48Vs)
    Vso (full flaps) = 41kias, manual recommends 55-65kt approach speed (1.34-1.58Vso)

    I suspect the range of speeds Cessna recommends is based on weight of the airplane, you can approach slower when it lighter.
    My normal approach is 65-70kts (65 +5/-0) with 10-20degrees flaps and power off.

    Brian
    CFIIG/ASEL
     
  30. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    9,932
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Ya almost lost me there Tim.

    I think what you are saying is that fully loaded in your example 1.3 VS0 is 62 *1.3= 80 mph, where as lightly loaded 1.3 VS0 is 54 *1.3 = 70 mph, so ipso facto 1.1*62 = 68 mph which is close enough for this example to 70 mph. So I do get what you are saying.

    In the SR-22 I typically fly 85 knots on vfr final, slowing to 79 knots basically over the fence. this is done with about 15% power during the descent. Power stays in until runway assured, then back it out. The pull the power too soon and the sink rate increases drastically, get too slow on final (below 79 knots ) and sink rate increases drastically. Not a big deal if it happens if you react correctly, but you need to be aware of it. Because of that big expensive engine out front, long periods gliding at idle is discouraged unless practicing engine out, so I rarely do power off approaches. Since I rent, 3,000 feet is my shortest runway now days, so loading differences are that big of a worry.
     
  31. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    850
    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Andrew Sarangan, CFII
    The relation between IAS and CAS is highly nonlinear in the slow speed range, so 30% above indicated stall speed might be only 20% above the calibrated stall speed. In other words, if you are using 1.3x indicated airspeed, you are flying a lot slower than you think.
     
    SloRoam and EugeneR like this.
  32. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    2,007
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    In my STOL C-150, I flew power on, full flaps at 1.0 Vso.

    That was a guess, anyway, because my airspeed indicator was near zero...

    There was plenty of reserve energy at the bottom of the approach and control authority was good. Once the power came off for touchdown, there wasn't much left and I usually stopped on the numbers and taxied off on the approach end of the runway...

    Short_Landing.jpg
     
    Justin M and rene86mx like this.
  33. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    11,276
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    It probably does. But that's 1.3 Vs0 adjusted for weight, not 1.1 Vs0 as a target.
     
  34. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    377
    Location:
    KADS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Plano Pilot
    It depends. In the Citation yes, Cessna 340 no. At 1.3 in the C340 we are about 30K below blue line.
     
    N1120A likes this.
  35. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    6,391
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Never really understood this one. What’s the .3 for in the first place, if not as a buffer for things like wind gusts?

    For my plane it's 57 * 0.3 = 17. Unless a gust of 17 mph stops instantly, which ain't gonna happen in any weather I'm flying in, then I'm fine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  36. Will Kumley

    Will Kumley Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Will
    I voted yes as I've discovered that it results in a smoother and more stabilized landing for me. The planes I rent have checklists provided and the owner or whoever creates the checklist seems to add 5-10 mph to the final speed when considering the published Vso. Example, the Cherokee has a published Vso of 52 mph but they have 75 on final. I typically fly 65 on final. I also know that if I'm in a full flap setting doing slow flight I can typically get her down to about 49 mph before I get stall warning and 47ish before she actually stalls. I know, I know stalls are dependent on AOA but that wasn't the question. The Cessna 172's that they rent also have 75 as the final on the checklist and if I fly 75 on final I have to be very gentle on the roundout or I'll end up with a heck of a balloon. I've started using 65 on final in the 172 as well and the balloon can still happen but is less likely to happen. Imagine that, less speed, less energy to dissipate and things go better.
     
  37. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,669
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    It was the other way around in my C182A. See spreadsheet in post 23. And I would think this is more typical because of the higher AoA @ slow speeds and the pitot being aligned for cruise speed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  38. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Martin Pauly
    A factor of 1.3 gives you enough energy to flare for a smooth touchdown, without being so fast as to float down the runway.
    Sure, it can also be a buffer for sudden wind gusts, but it can't achieve both at the same time.

    - Martin
     
    N1120A, midlifeflyer and timwinters like this.
  39. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,918
    Location:
    Kixd
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sam
    When are you transitioning below blue line then?
     
  40. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    6,473
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Plus a little for grandma, seeing as though none of us are perfect at holding a speed.
    With the exception of EdFred of course.
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.