1.3 Vso for final?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Arnold, Jul 30, 2020.

?

No wind do you fly your final approach speed based on 1.3 Vso?

  1. Yes

    51 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Faster

    20 vote(s)
    19.6%
  3. Slower

    10 vote(s)
    9.8%
  4. Sometimes one, sometimes the other.

    13 vote(s)
    12.7%
  5. If it feels good I do it.

    8 vote(s)
    7.8%
  1. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    What do you mean by "final approach?" FAF to the threshold? No way I'm that slow. Runway made and getting ready to cross the fence? 1.3 is fine in most situations, unless it is particularly gusty. Grummans float as much as Mooneys do, so speed discipline is important - it is also pretty hard to land one smoothly when it has truly quit flying, so you'll often have some sort of speed to burn when the wheels touch - not like a Bonanza.

    Your power is out, so blue line shouldn't be an issue.
     
  2. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Unless a go around is necessary.
     
  3. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    Sure, but that again factors where in the approach you are.
     
  4. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    If you arrive at the runway at 1.3 you will float or balloon or end up touching down flat or on the nosewheel. 1.3 is good for the approach, but one should have the power back or at idle and the nose coming up before one gets to within a few feet of the surface. Stall speed and drag decrease in ground effect.
     
  5. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    1.3 for the entire approach is insanely and unsafely slow in many planes.
     
  6. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    Whatever the POH says. Airplanes with short wings typically need more than 1.3. Some STOL airplanes are safe with less. The 1.3 is a general rule. The whole point of this thread was that too many pilots are way beyond any reasonable approach speed, probably because they're afraid of stalling, and yet I bet more airplanes are destroyed due to landing too fast than by approaching too slow.
     
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  7. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    So you come in at stall speed. Sporty.
     
  8. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I wish they would teach final approach speed a little differently than the current non-wavering 1.3Vso/Vref standard for the entire approach.

    For many situations while “on final” that speed is uncomfortable, unnecessary, and a huge inconvenience to atc & others.

    It is likely a response to the numerous Unstabilized Approach accidents; there should have been a more finessed solution put forth to us.

    It does not take that much skill to slow to your final approach speed in a 172, within a mile of the field. Right now people are slowing to 1.3Vso 10 miles out in 150’s, 172’s. Totally unnecessary and a major aggravation to others.

    Larger/faster aircraft, sure.

    And it would not be a huge transition for a pilot moving up in aircraft types to shift to getting stabilized earlier.
     
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  9. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Can the OP clarify if he meant speed on final when ur doing pattern work (which is how I answered it) or on final approach for an instrument approach? Two very different questions.
     
  10. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Line Up and Wait

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    The sink rate on my Zenith CH601 XLB is way too high at 1.3 Vso.
     
  11. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    The sink rate in my Jodel was awesome at 1.3 Vso. Short, low-aspect ratio wings do that. The "stall/spin-proof" Ercoupe had short wings and there were accidents that destroyed airplanes when the sink rate got high and they pancaked in. When a sink rate develops the drag goes way up pretty quickly and the sink rate increases further.

    On the other hand, my Auster (36' span) had a stall of 38 MPH at gross and about 35 at typical operating weights. It approached quite happily at 45 and I often came over the fence slower than that. If I carried that 45 into ground effect it would float forever. That airplane had a decently wide speed range, stalling at 38 and cruising at 110-115 quite easily. The 182RG is even better.
     
  12. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Sink rate at power off? Use the throttle! I’m not proficient in my Cub yet but over the fence at 30 mph and landing at 22 mph is pretty darn stable. Just bought a GAP26 AOA probe for the G3X. Looking forward to playing with it.
     
  13. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    Agree.

    I would never actively discourage any pilot from seeking a “stabilized approach”. It certainly helps students and new pilots and I hear big iron appreciates it as well. And I’d say it’s a good idea on an instrument approach.

    But with experience comes flexibility. I try to picture a “key position” on final - a window I want to fly through at about 1.2 to 1.3 Vso or as specified in the POH. That window is roughly 1 wingspan above the ground, or maybe a bit more - 50’ or so works quite well in most small GA aircraft. “The past is prologue”, but any maneuvering or shenanigans prior to that point are irrelevant if you can consistently hit that window “on speed” and properly configured. From there, a roundout/flare should have you arriving in ground effect with little extra speed above the stall and minimal float.

    Anyway, works for me.
     
  14. CRQFlier

    CRQFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ha! damn. good catch. 1.3xVso is 69.

    Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
     
  15. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    Go and fly a Bonanza downhill on a long instrument approach at 1.3 (about 71 knots). See how stable that feels.
     
  16. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Line Up and Wait

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    Carbon Cub? Super Cub? What type of cub stalls at less than 22 mph?
     
  17. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Why In the world would anyone do that anyway?

    Granted, I haven't regularly flown a Bo, but, when I flew instruments a lot, I always flew the approach at 90 to 95 kts then transitioned to approach speed (80mph) about 3/4 mile from the threshold...if I had broken out.
     
  18. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Huh? Unless you're extremely underpowered, you can maintain level flight at anything above the stall speed. That's what stall speed is. Now it might require more power than you are comfortable with.
     
  19. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Line Up and Wait

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    All my final approaches are power off.
     
  20. Vince R

    Vince R Pre-takeoff checklist

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    +1 on this.

    I do fly a Bo, and on an instrument approach where the MAP is a timed segment from the FAF, it’s important to keep ground speed under control. It’s easy to get sloppy if we’re relying on GPS, but I typically keep ground speed right around 90 knots until I break out, then we slow to 70-75 knots for the last mile or so of the approach.
     
  21. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There's a critical missing detail.
     
  22. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Hope you don't get a significant tailwind on the approach.
     
  23. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Line Up and Wait

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    Great, hope you find it.
     
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  24. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Backcountry Supercub Rev 2. Fun as long as the winds are favorable. A handful when they aren't. ;)

    A G3X Touch airspeed indicator doesn't light up until 20 mph. I'm adding a GAP29 AOA probe to make up for it. Garmin's AOA probe is non-electric. All I have to do is connect an AOA pressure line to the existing ADHRS box. I'm looking forward to seeing how it works.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  25. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

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    OP here. Final approach speed. VFR or IFR I mean the final, stabilized speed you fly before slowing to touch down.
     
  26. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Hhmmm, two TOTALLY different things. Sticking with 1.3 Vso on final for a ‘normal’ VFR pattern in every piper/bo/cezzna/mooney I’ve ever flown. An IFR approach I’m 90kts starting at the FAF which is usually miles out. Then at minimums I’m just landing, usually a little chop and drop and slow it down to 80 but it all happens pretty fast and much differently than when flying a ‘normal VFR pattern’.
     
  27. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer En-Route

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    Mine too....1.3 Vso in my RV-9A works out to about 51 knots, where she sinks like the Lusitania. I shoot for 65 knots over the fence when it's calm, and bump it a few for gusts.

    As for POH values, well, we get to write our own!
     
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  28. Hacker

    Hacker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Another discussion that is actually an argument for flying AOA.

    <duck>
     
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  29. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    What do you guys consider an excessive sink rate? A 500 fpm descent to the ground will translate to under 5 mph vertical speed. How much under depends on how the plane reacts to ground effect.
     
  30. whifferdill

    whifferdill Line Up and Wait

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    I'd say 6,000 FPM, since my Pitts would come down 3,000 FPM in a full deflection slip to land. :)
     
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  31. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

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    Well I respectfully disagree that they are two "TOTALLY" different things (emphasis in the original).
     
  32. Kevin Eggert

    Kevin Eggert Pre-Flight

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    Flying a Cardinal, I like a little extra speed on final as the stabilator feels much more responsive to control input. I can come in slower if needed, but the plane seems happier flying just a bit faster.
     
  33. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    The post I was replying to suggested flying the entire final approach at 1.3 Vso, which would be madness, and also fairly terrible for your engine
     
  34. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait

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    My experience when I feel like that is I generally don't have it trimmed exactly right and I'm fighting it on final. Once trimmed I'm much more comfortable on speed. I went out last based on this thread, and the "impossible turn" thread on BT and did a bunch of slow work in the Archer and really surprised myself at how slow I could get and keep full control. I got tired of hearing the stall horn long before I had any issues with control.
     
  35. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    Please elaborate on the engine thing.
     
  36. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    I wondered about that as well.
     
  37. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    What?
     
  38. SloRoam

    SloRoam Pre-Flight

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    This depends on a lot of things: weight, cg, length of runway, rough vs smooth surface, your wing, deviation from cas to ias at slow speeds...

    So kind of like asking: "what mph do you drive around a corner?"

    Depends.
     
  39. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    Potential for piston slap and also operating below POH guidelines for a long period.
     
  40. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    What???