Converging from opposite sides

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
Hello fellow pilots. I had a situation yesterday, and I'm looking for feedback on how I could learn. Here is the situation.

The airport I was approaching has a single runway 04/22. I am approaching basically from the North. There is no tower. I make a call at 10 miles out that I'll be full stop. I don't hear any other calls. The winds are favoring runway 4. I call again at 5 miles out that I'll be entering the left downwind to runway 4 on a 45, and that I'm full stop. As I'm entering the downwind midfield I make a call and announce my position and intentions. This is my third radio call.

Additional information - I have three passengers in the plane. It's me, my 11 year old son, my neighbor, and his 11 year old son. Neither my neighbor or his son had ever been in a GA airplane before. I'm really trying to help them have a good experience. (in case you're wondering, W&B was in limits)

At this point, I hear another plane calling for the first time. "Airport traffic, Bugsmasher 123 entering the left downwind for runway 22, touch and go".

Wait... Did I hear that right??? What are they doing??? I call back on CTAF and ask the other plane to clarify. He basically repeats the same thing. I'm not quite sure what to do, so I announce that I'll do a right 360 for spacing. We seem to basically be in the exact some spots on opposite sides of the airport for the opposite runways. Then when I'm about halfway through my 360, another plane announces that he's 2 miles to the North and is going to cross mid field and then make a right 270 to join left traffic for 22.

At this point I'm pretty flustered. There's two other planes flying the 22 pattern, and I'm in the 04 pattern, but the winds are favoring 04. After completing my 360, I fly upwind, then enter the left traffic for 22 along with the other two planes. The plane that crossed mid field did extend quite a bit out away from the airport to give me plenty of room, which was nice. But the plane doing T&G's kept at it. After landing I observed the windsock. It appeared to be showing about a 5 knot tailwind for runway 22.

Most of the flying I do is at towered airports. I'm not terribly accustomed to non-towered fields. All three of us pilots worked together to make the spacing happen. I did change up my plans and adapted to the situation.

Questions.

1 - Is this kind of situation "normal" for non-towered airports? Am I making a big deal about nothing?
2 - Is there something I could have, or should have done differently here?
3 - What are some things I can learn about how to operate more safely in a non-towered environment?
 
1. Almost anything happens at pilot-controlled fields. This is nothing I have not experienced several times.
2. I would have asked why they were using the tailwind runway.
3. I think you did as well as you could. It's a simple formula: find out what the others are doing, then find a way to safely fit in.
 
azpilot said:
Questions.

1 - Is this kind of situation "normal" for non-towered airports? Am I making a big deal about nothing? - "All three of us pilots worked together to make the spacing happen."
2 - Is there something I could have, or should have done differently here? - "All three of us pilots worked together to make the spacing happen."
3 - What are some things I can learn about how to operate more safely in a non-towered environment? - "All three of us pilots worked together to make the spacing happen."
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answers above in red.

sometimes there is room to work it out so you each land on whatever rwy you want, as long as the spacing is good. I don't like getting pressured into landing on the "wrong" rwy (tailwind) but I also won't say "screw u guys" and just do my thing. I'm wondering if maybe you didn't hear some of their calls due to all the peeps in your plane, but also, like you said, you worked it out.
 
1 - Yes, not unusual.
2 - There are certainly other ways to handle it, but what you did was acceptable assuming you knew you had enough runway to land with a tailwind. Otherwise you could have asked the other pilot to hold while you completed your landing, or asked him to switch to 04. Many options.
3 - Be flexible, communicate, and work things out.
 
I think that all of your calls are pretty standard for going into a non towered airport. I wouldn't say that what you experienced is normal, however, my field isn't always real busy. I think I would of come back on the radio and told the other plane my position, and that I am setting up for 4 because the winds support it, and see what the response was. Maybe he would have broken his off, and if he didn't, I think you ended up doing what you needed to do. That isn't all that bad of a tail wind in the end.
 
A few years ago a guy in a Super Cub flew under my Cub and landed ahead of me.
 
1. I wouldn't say it's normal, but it happens. Can depend on the field (lots of flight training? lots of NORDO?). Eventually, you'll be that person who calls 5 north when they're actually 5 south, or calls rwy 4 when they meant 22, or lands with a tailwind...

2. Other options include: bug out of the pattern, or above TPA until things get sorted out, especially if you have passengers aboard (also, try to avoid saying "oops" or "ah crap" on the intercom). What others said re: simply announcing that the winds favor 4 and I am landing 4; being PIC is largely incompatible with "going with the flow". I'd sooner go somewhere else than land with a 5 knot tailwind in my tailwheel plane.

3. Fly to nontowered airports more often, they're more fun anyway ;)
 
I would have said it looks like winds are favoring 04. The guy not doing touch and goes probably changes things up. Touch and go guy probably gets indignant. Maybe was a practice maneuver.
 
eman1200 said:
I'm wondering if maybe you didn't hear some of their calls due to all the peeps in your plane, but also, like you said, you worked it out.
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That is entirely possible.
 
Half Fast said:
There are certainly other ways to handle it, but what you did was acceptable assuming you knew you had enough runway to land with a tailwind.
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Ya, runway was 4500'+ long. The tail wind wasn't that much of a concern.
 
Are you very familiar with that airport?

There may be a preferred runway when winds are wrong, but light. May be to noise or other issues.
 
Just curious.. what were the winds??
I’m a 20,000 + hour ATP that fly with copilots who can’t do the geometry (math) to figure out which runway is into the wind.
 
Some airports have in their awos info (or um, AFD?) “preferred calm wind runway is xx”

I have also heard in the past, “kacb traffic hey guys the wind is favoring runway yy now, anyone up to land into wind?” used successfully.

Other factors that sometimes play into the choice is runway slope, residences off one end.
 
Hmmm, I’m 5 knots? I’m willing to bet below a certain velocity the preferred runway is 22.
 
I just announce to my pax that there’s a douchebag in the area that is too cheap to pay for ADSB out and continue on my way, increasingly announcing the douchebags presence.

A 360 is fine if you have traffic in sight but otherwise you see what’s ahead, fly your pattern, a 360 could cause you to fly into someone behind you, not sure what’s safer tbh. At this point we are praying for good luck.
 
Racerx said:
I would have said it looks like winds are favoring 04. The guy not doing touch and goes probably changes things up. Touch and go guy probably gets indignant. Maybe was a practice maneuver.
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Dana said:
:yeahthat:
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Yep ... Not too many moons ago as I approached KDYB I called for 06 and then another plane called 24. I queried the other pilot and noted that the winds were favoring 06. This was important as 06 is right traffic and 24 is left traffic. He came back and stated that they would reenter the pattern for 06 right.

In my tailwheel I'm not crazy about tailwind landings ...
 
mandm said:
A 360 is fine if you have traffic in sight but otherwise you see what’s ahead, fly your pattern, a 360 could cause you to fly into someone behind you, not sure what’s safer tbh. At this point we are praying for good luck.
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I once flew a right 360 on the right 45 to avoid a near-collision with a plane that was doing an overhead entry. I announced I was doing it so that the pilot following me knew about it, but I have often wondered how that pilot handled it, given that the ridge behind us probably didn't leave him much room for maneuvering. In retrospect, I'm thinking that it would have been better to turn to runway heading and reenter the pattern on the crosswind leg. Under the circumstances, that would have given me time to visually acquire relevant traffic.
 
pretty much what you said.

azpilot said:
All three of us pilots worked together to make the spacing happen
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If the other pilot is low time or not enough recent experience to barely make radio calls. Which sort of sounds like your description. i.e. "Bushsmasher 123, I am already downwind for 04, winds are favoring 04, what are your intentions.?" the response sound like he parroted the call he was taught "Bugsmasher 123 downwind for 22". He also may have also just switched frequencies and had been on the wrong frequency so didn't hear any of your previous calls. The big to remember is there are a lot of pilot out there with a less experience than you, that is how they get experience. It may have been a student pilot 1st solo at a non-tower airport.

I have actually been in a situation as an instructor in an airplane that only had a PTT in the pilot position. but the student pilot was so overloaded he couldn't tell the traffic that we need to use 29 even though wind was favoring 11.

Our airport often has winds aloft at 10knots favoring 29 while the AWOS is reporting, 3 kts favoring 11. Also this usually happens in morning when then Sun is right in our eye on 11. so we do one or two touch and goes on 11 coming high and fast every time we go this sucks and switch to 29. Then everyone coming in wonders why we are 29 when the winds are favoring 11.

The other main point "You are pilot in command of your aircraft, they are pilot in command of theirs" both of you should make the best decisions for you and your aircraft. If you need 04 because 22 is less unsafe then let the traffic know. Most traffic will work with you once they understand why you need it.

Now on the other hand if I had just came into the pattern and set up touch and goes 22 and heard your call. I would have either extended or done a 360 and let you land if I wanted to stay on 22 (I have practiced downwind landings with students), or I likely would have crossed midfield and came in behind you on 04.

The other thought is, you are out there having fun flying, no sense getting upset because your plans got changed. It just means you and your passengers just got fly a bit more and gain a bit more experience. Just have fun doing it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Kritchlow said:
Just curious.. what were the winds??
I’m a 20,000 + hour ATP that fly with copilots who can’t do the geometry (math) to figure out which runway is into the wind.
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I didn’t realize they were hiring people at 5 hours now.
 
This is pretty common. Sometimes, it's an issue of itinerant pilots not listening to AWOS and making incorrect assumptions. When I encounter this issue (and am in the pattern to land on the favored runway) I would simply announce "winds favor runway 4, NXXXX downwind for runway 4, full stop." If the conflicting traffic doesn't take the hint (usually they will alter their plans and follow you) then I would break off the pattern and let the others land until I could land on the favored runway. There is no reason to compromise your own safety by following others on a downwind approach. Maybe the tailwind is not too significant, but a tailwind will alter your sight lines and expectations for landing, and will lower safety margins because of increased ground speed in the case of an incident like a blown tire or failed brake, etc. I won't accept compromising my own safety standards.
 
In that situation, there's enough going on that you know about, and things you may not know about such as a plane you don't see or hear but one that has caused the other ones to be doing what they're doing. Personally, in that case I would leave the pattern or at least widen it until you KNOW what everyone else is doing but I would not do a 360. I often think of this early diagram of traffic pattern entry, presumably at a time (airport traffic "zone") where radios were rare. All aircraft would circle to the left until they could safely make an entry into a rectangular pattern

Old pattern.jpg
That's still exactly what I would do in the situation you describe. By moving AWAY from the chaos you get a much better perspective of what just happened, what is happening, and what is going to happen next, and you have positioned yourself in an area where the other aircraft are less likely to be. I think it's a mistake to rely on radio communication alone, and in some cases it might be best to just move away and focus on what you see, not what you hear. Ever hear someone clearly announce their intentions in multiple radio calls but refer to the runway's reciprocal?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I have also heard in the past, “kacb traffic hey guys the wind is favoring runway yy now, anyone up to land into wind?” used successfully.
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I like that line. I'll have to remember it.
 
asicer said:
Is 04 downhill and 22 uphill?
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The airport is A39. There is a 0.7% gradient uphill going to the NE per the chart supplement. If I did the math right that means the elevation changes less than 1 foot over the course of the entire runway.
 
brcase said:
pretty much what you said.



If the other pilot is low time or not enough recent experience to barely make radio calls. Which sort of sounds like your description. i.e. "Bushsmasher 123, I am already downwind for 04, winds are favoring 04, what are your intentions.?" the response sound like he parroted the call he was taught "Bugsmasher 123 downwind for 22". He also may have also just switched frequencies and had been on the wrong frequency so didn't hear any of your previous calls. The big to remember is there are a lot of pilot out there with a less experience than you, that is how they get experience. It may have been a student pilot 1st solo at a non-tower airport.

I have actually been in a situation as an instructor in an airplane that only had a PTT in the pilot position. but the student pilot was so overloaded he couldn't tell the traffic that we need to use 29 even though wind was favoring 11.

Our airport often has winds aloft at 10knots favoring 29 while the AWOS is reporting, 3 kts favoring 11. Also this usually happens in morning when then Sun is right in our eye on 11. so we do one or two touch and goes on 11 coming high and fast every time we go this sucks and switch to 29. Then everyone coming in wonders why we are 29 when the winds are favoring 11.

The other main point "You are pilot in command of your aircraft, they are pilot in command of theirs" both of you should make the best decisions for you and your aircraft. If you need 04 because 22 is less unsafe then let the traffic know. Most traffic will work with you once they understand why you need it.

Now on the other hand if I had just came into the pattern and set up touch and goes 22 and heard your call. I would have either extended or done a 360 and let you land if I wanted to stay on 22 (I have practiced downwind landings with students), or I likely would have crossed midfield and came in behind you on 04.

The other thought is, you are out there having fun flying, no sense getting upset because your plans got changed. It just means you and your passengers just got fly a bit more and gain a bit more experience. Just have fun doing it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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This is a great post. I think this is what I really needed to hear.

And yes, I was just out there having fun. Landing 22 was perfectly safe for me. It just added another few minutes to my flight, which isn't a big deal at all. I'm at about 300 hours now, it's just that most of my experience has come at towered airfields, or at non-towered fields where I have not encountered this level of traffic.

In the end, it all worked out just fine. The trainer did his T&G's. I got to stop and let my passengers stretch their legs, and the third guy made it to the fuel pumps.
 
dbahn said:
In that situation, there's enough going on that you know about, and things you may not know about such as a plane you don't see or hear but one that has caused the other ones to be doing what they're doing. Personally, in that case I would leave the pattern or at least widen it until you KNOW what everyone else is doing but I would not do a 360.
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That's a fair point. After we landed and were walking around, there was a good 10 minute stretch with no take offs or landings at all. I'll add that to my list of options to consider in the future.
 
Meanwhile, 6 miles south of you, there was probably a stack of people over TFD waiting their turn to fly the ILS RWY 5 to Casa Grande and thankful that, for once, the winds did not favor runway 23. Weird that some of them would stray up to Ak-Chin just to fly tailwind patterns.

You did fine. As you can tell from this thread, everyone has his own way of dealing with that situation, and none of them is wrong. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as "the active." Every runway that is not closed is available for use. Some people want to practice takeoffs and landings with a tailwind. Some people just want to take off from the end of the runway closest to the FBO, sometimes without even having a radio. You just have to use all your situation awareness tools (ADS-B, radio, eyes, and brain) to gauge whether and where you can fit into other traffic and, when possible, talk to them to make it work out safely.

My radio call would probably sound like this: "Bugsmasher 23B, Cessna 45J has you in sight. We are planning a full stop on runway 4. Do you mind extending your downwind leg for runway 22 so we can land?" Whether and how they respond will tell you a lot about whether you really want to be in the pattern with them or not.
 
iamtheari said:
Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as "the active." Every runway that is not closed is available for use. Some people want to practice takeoffs and landings with a tailwind. Some people just want to take off from the end of the runway closest to the FBO, sometimes without even having a radio.
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Yep.

At my home drome, jets will often land on 5-23, even when winds favor 11-29 and it is in use by bugsmashers, because the jets need the greater length.

Then, of course, there are the seaplane folks who will land on the lake off the end of rwy 05, and some of them are NORDO. And there's no telling what the RW squirrels might be doing.

Got to be vigilant all the time. Yesterday evening I was holding short at 23 watching a DA40 land and talking to a guy on downwind. He offered to extend to let me get out, I said thanks and took one last look at 23 final before rolling, and lo-and-behold there was a 182 on short final. He never said a word, did a T&G, and silently departed.

Sigh.
 
azpilot said:
The airport is A39. There is a 0.7% gradient uphill going to the NE per the chart supplement. If I did the math right that means the elevation changes less than 1 foot over the course of the entire runway.
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Your math is not correct. A 0.7% grade means that the one end is 4751 x 0.007 = 33 feet higher than the other.

With 5 knots of wind, it's possible the touch-and-go guy had been doing them for an hour, and when he took off the wind was favoring the other direction. I had this happen once with a Commercial student practicing power-off 180's, which he was doing pretty well on until all of sudden he wasn't. After a few increasingly-awful attempts, we listened to the AWOS again on downwind and sure enough the wind had shifted around in that time. After all, how often do most people tune in the AWOS during T&G's?

And then the other guy switches his radio to CTAF, hears the T&G guy announce he's using runway 22, shrugs his shoulders and figures whatever, he'll land 22 as well.

Stuff happens. You all worked it out. That's how it's supposed to be.
 
RussR said:
he was doing pretty well on until all of sudden he wasn't. After a few increasingly-awful attempts, we listened to the AWOS again on downwind and sure enough the wind had shifted around in that time
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I think the AWOS is the average of the last three minutes. A better way to know the wind is a wind tee or windsock, which is what is actually happening as you observe it.
 
dbahn said:
In that situation, there's enough going on that you know about, and things you may not know about such as a plane you don't see or hear but one that has caused the other ones to be doing what they're doing. Personally, in that case I would leave the pattern or at least widen it until you KNOW what everyone else is doing but I would not do a 360. I often think of this early diagram of traffic pattern entry, presumably at a time (airport traffic "zone") where radios were rare. All aircraft would circle to the left until they could safely make an entry into a rectangular pattern

View attachment 125913
That's still exactly what I would do in the situation you describe. By moving AWAY from the chaos you get a much better perspective of what just happened, what is happening, and what is going to happen next, and you have positioned yourself in an area where the other aircraft are less likely to be. I think it's a mistake to rely on radio communication alone, and in some cases it might be best to just move away and focus on what you see, not what you hear. Ever hear someone clearly announce their intentions in multiple radio calls but refer to the runway's reciprocal?
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Fine, but with the way many pilots fly the pattern, that outer circle will be about 20 nm diameter. :D
 
Pinecone said:
Fine, but with the way many pilots fly the pattern, that outer circle will be about 20 nm diameter. :D
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That should be enough distance from people flying to opposing runways with others making 360s in the pattern. :eek2:
 
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