Replace G1000?

[midlifeflyer]

Totally a mater of curiosity. Has anyone ever gotten rid of a older G1000 in favor of after-market components? For example, replacing a G100 system with a G500/600 and GTN?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Holy Cow! When did the G1000 become old?!?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Holy Cow! When did the G1000 become old?!?

Bear in mind that G1000 is an OEM product. That means two things - manufacturer customized and manufacturer-specific upgrade path. Both can cause issues.

It's actually the Diamond experience which prompts my question. I have seen discussions among DA42 owners complaining they can't even get upgraded to add WAAS (that's OLD). The DA40 G1000 is lacking functions upgraded NAV III systems have had for years.

I'm sure the initial replacement is expensive. I don't even know if it's feasible (which is why I asked), but replacement would make future upgrades, if not less expensive, at least in control of the aircraft owner.

 

[Ryan Klems]

I'm not aware of anyone doing one, and I think it would be very difficult to get approved. The G1000s are tightly integrated into the the aircraft, including all system annunciations and it's essentially certified as part of the airframe. It's one of the reasons I'm really not keen on G1000 systems. You are completely at the mercy of your airframe manufacturer working with Garmin to offer an upgrade, and even when they do (say WAAS upgrade via swapping GIA 63 to GIA 63W) or the NXi upgrades are extremely expensive. The GIA 63W's aren't even made anymore, so if you didn't get in on the upgrade when it was first offered, you have to try to find salvage units to do the upgrade now. I do think this is going to be interesting to watch longer term though... the early G1000s are definitely aging and one has to wonder how long repairs are going to be available and at what point does it become financially interesting for someone to pursue a retrofit.

 

[bnt83]

Better off selling the airplane and buying an older one that you can customize or newer one that has everything you want.

 

[Ryan F.]

Totally a mater of curiosity. Has anyone ever gotten rid of a older G1000 in favor of after-market components? For example, replacing a G100 system with a G500/600 and GTN?

I am familiar with the issue you're describing. Wouldn't rule it out, but I haven't personally heard of it happening. Based purely on my personal interactions with folks who've found themselves in this boat, it appears to be a dead end street unless the desire to upgrade exceeds the consideration of economic obsolescence.

 

[mondtster]

Considering the G1000 is typically STCd into an airframe I don't see why a reversal couldn't be performed. You'd just need to get all the components that the G1000 replaces.

I haven't heard of it being done yet but considering the age of some of the early systems I think we'll see it happen soon.

 

[GRG55]

Considering the G1000 is typically STCd into an airframe I don't see why a reversal couldn't be performed. You'd just need to get all the components that the G1000 replaces.

I haven't heard of it being done yet but considering the age of some of the early systems I think we'll see it happen soon.

Is the Garmin/Cirrus Perspective system an STC into the airframe? I thought you could not remove and replace that system at all.

I understood there was a difference in the way the G1000 derivative Perspective was certified in the Cirrus airframe compared to the older Avidyne/Garmin 430 system. The 430s can be legally replaced/upgraded (e.g. GTNs) as can the Avidyne displays, but not so with the later, more integrated systems. Those must be replaced with like components and software only.

 

[mondtster]

Is the Garmin/Cirrus Perspective system an STC into the airframe? I thought you could not remove and replace that system at all.

I'm not familiar with the Cirrus or how they are doing their airplane certifications. I can tell you that both the Piper and Diamond G1000 systems are STCd as well as the G500 that was in the Archers. That said, anything is possible with enough money and determination.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Better off selling the airplane and buying an older one that you can customize or newer one that has everything you want.

I guess a related question is, why buy an airplane which is obsolete or, worse, a new one which may be technologically obsolete in a few years?

 

[GRG55]

I guess a related question is, why buy an airplane which is obsolete or, worse, a new one which may be technologically obsolete in a few years?

That seems a function of going digital/glass.
Anything of that sort appears to have a shorter half-life/faster decay rate than our old King Silver Crown avionics.

For example, the early Apollo and King IFR GPS systems are obsolete and there's concern Garmin will stop supporting the GNS 430. But there's thousands of King and Collins navcoms that predate all of those and many will still be functioning 2 decades from now.

Same goes for my Century AI and HSI. Left in the plane, in 20 years they will still do what they did on the day they came out of the factory, notwithstanding someone will need to overhaul them once or twice. But if I had replaced them with an Aspen or Garmin G500 panel 5 years ago, how much remaining life would those systems have before needing replacement again?

(Having said all that, I am on the verge of tossing the gyros and spending mucho AMUs to upgrade the radios in my Aztec ).

I'm not suggesting we should go back, but technology comes at a cost, and part of that is comparatively rapid obsolescence of these glass panel avionics, just like our laptops and smartphones. It's one reason I really enjoy the Husky. For a day VFR plane that's an incredible joy to fly I don't need any of that crap, and the only "upgrade" I crave to put in it is a better fly rod than the one I have now.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That seems a function of going digital/glass.
Anything of that sort appears to have a shorter half-life/faster decay rate than our old King Silver Crown avionics.

I'm not griping about technology getting better and more sophisticated; that's expected. "I want the latest and greatest" is what I buy into with every technology purchase. If all G1000 installations have an upgrade path, no harm, no foul. If I have a non-WAAS G1000 and have to pay to get hardware, firmware and software upgrades, want a better screen, or upgrade to a NXi, I don't see a problem. So long as I can.

What I'm talking about it different. If I had a non-WAAS GNS and wanted WAAS, I had that choice and could add on the necessary components. If I have a GNS 530 and want to get the benefit of the latest technology, I can swap it out for a GTN or IFD. Same with autopilots, engine monitors, DGs, HSIs, you name it.

But in the G1000 world, indications are that unless Garmin and an airframe manufacturer agree, there is no upgrade path. Period. And if if it's even possible to remove an integrated G1000 system and replace it with modular equipment I'm willing to bet you can't do it on a piecemeal basis. You need to budget to do it all at once.

It's funny. Getting a bit bored with the usual bunch of YouTube aviators, I crossed the Pond. There's a guy in the UK flying a lovely Pre G1000 DA40. New panel. Obviously he replaced most everything, but (a) he was able to and (b) he didn't have to.

 

[Velocity173]

Go with an NXI upgrade. Got 407 GXI qual’d recently and they’re much improved over the G1000s. Very impressed with SVT detail over the G500/1000. Of course there’s cost involved.

 

[asicer]

But in the G1000 world, indications are that unless Garmin and an airframe manufacturer agree, there is no upgrade path. Period. And if if it's even possible to remove an integrated G1000 system and replace it with modular equipment I'm willing to bet you can't do it on a piecemeal basis. You need to budget to do it all at once.

Even worse, I wonder whether we're getting close to the point in time that early G1000s are becoming unrepairable due to components nearing end-of-life.

 

[jsstevens]

Go with an NXI upgrade. Got 407 GXI qual’d recently and they’re much improved over the G1000s. Very impressed with SVT detail over the G500/1000. Of course there’s cost involved.View attachment 93946

Lovely idea, but if Garmin and the aircraft manufacturer don't collaborate on a way to do that, you can't.
I did see a thread about this on the Diamond board. Diamond just released a price list for DA-42 upgrade: $55K to upgrade a G1000 to the current G1000 NXi. Only listed for DA-42 presently so if you have a DA-40, no go.

 

[GRG55]

...But in the G1000 world, indications are that unless Garmin and an airframe manufacturer agree, there is no upgrade path. Period. And if if it's even possible to remove an integrated G1000 system and replace it with modular equipment I'm willing to bet you can't do it on a piecemeal basis. You need to budget to do it all at once.

It's funny. Getting a bit bored with the usual bunch of YouTube aviators, I crossed the Pond. There's a guy in the UK flying a lovely Pre G1000 DA40. New panel. Obviously he replaced most everything, but (a) he was able to and (b) he didn't have to.

...

I have a pilot I know two hangars down who purchased a Cirrus last year. Specifically avoided the Garmin glass ones and bought an older one with the Avidyne/dual-430 panel and the Tornado Alley turbonormalized motor so he could keep the Avidyne displays and toss the 430s and the autopilot.

 

[mondtster]

Even worse, I wonder whether we're getting close to the point in time that early G1000s are becoming unrepairable due to components nearing end-of-life.

I suspect we're there, for that reason, which I alluded to up the thread a bit. Having parts go end of life or displays that are no longer available is a big problem when trying to support machines that people expect support for. Everything is driven by consumer electronics, which have a relatively short lifespan compared to what people expect out of vehicles, etc. I work for an engine OEM and obsolete components for our controls was always an ongoing problem that I think is only going to get worse.

Heck, when did the GTN series GPS come out? Garmin already had to offer a newer version with a higher resolution display because the old ones were obsolete...

 

[mondtster]

But in the G1000 world, indications are that unless Garmin and an airframe manufacturer agree, there is no upgrade path. Period. And if if it's even possible to remove an integrated G1000 system and replace it with modular equipment I'm willing to bet you can't do it on a piecemeal basis. You need to budget to do it all at once.

The problem with the G1000 installations is that they are application specific, and the airframe manufacturer essentially owns the rights to that specific installation. In other words, if Diamond doesn't feel that there is enough of a revenue stream for upgrading the older systems they aren't going to invest in developing an upgrade.

We ran into similar issues with my friend's last DA40 when it came time to do ADS-B. Options were limited because Diamond wasn't interested in creating a software upgrade. Thankfully, my friend's Diamond already had WAAS so it wasn't as crippled as many of the older, more common DA40s are. His new one has the NXi in it so hopefully he'll be good for as long as he will realistically own it.

 

[Martin Pauly]

The problem with the G1000 installations is that they are application specific, and the airframe manufacturer essentially owns the rights to that specific installation. In other words, if Diamond doesn't feel that there is enough of a revenue stream for upgrading the older systems they aren't going to invest in developing an upgrade.

Exactly. These highly integrated systems are wonderful, until the moment you want to make a change (or a forced to make a change because of a mandate). You have so little control over what you can add to the system at that point, it really limits your options - and the OEM has to play a role in this, too, because the avionics system is part of the type certificate.

- Martin

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I've seen updates advertised for the G1000 to the NXi or whatever it's called, which has much faster processing, but I also hear $30K bandied about. Doable for a DA62, but it depends on what the gain is for lesser planes (such as a Skyhawk.)​