Failure in flight rivew !

Are you a CFI? If someone came to me and said, “Bob down the street signed me off for the ground, so I just need the flight portion” I would politely decline.
Why? The regulation allows it. You would only be providing an endorsement for what you did--the flight portion. If the flight portion was satisfactory, on what basis would you refuse to provide an endorsement for it?

As I was looking around, I did find that a CFI renewal in the allotted time frame eliminates the need for the ground portion - I did not know that.
That's an odd story.

It used to be assumed that any CFI checkride extended the need for a flight review for another two years, just as any checkride would. AT some point, a legal interpretation proclaimed that CFI checkrides are not "pilot" checkrides so they don't count. That wasn't what the FAA had originally intended so they eventually re-wrote the regulation to specifically include CFI renewal rides in the list of things that satisfy the flight review requirement.

That ship has sailed Larry, I did consider it though.
Not necessarily. The tapes are held for some period of time so they may still be available. The conversation is very positive. Just go in with the attitude that you want to learn from the incident. That any controller errors or lack of professionalism will also be addressed is incidental.
 
It used to be assumed that any CFI checkride extended the need for a flight review for another two years, just as any checkride would. AT some point, a legal interpretation proclaimed that CFI checkrides are not "pilot" checkrides so they don't count. That wasn't what the FAA had originally intended so they eventually re-wrote the regulation to specifically include CFI renewal rides in the list of things that satisfy the flight review requirement.

A CFI Renewal and a CFI checkride are two different things. A checkride can serve as a renewal, but a renewal isn't always a checkride.
 
To clarify my position, it’s not that I wouldn’t accept another instructors sign off if I knew the circumstances, or accept one of the standardized training options, it’s just that usually when someone comes in with something out of the ordinary, there’s almost always “more to the story”
 
To clarify my position, it’s not that I wouldn’t accept another instructors sign off if I knew the circumstances, or accept one of the standardized training options, it’s just that usually when someone comes in with something out of the ordinary, there’s almost always “more to the story”

I agree. For me to accept another CFI's ground portion as complete would require I knew the situation and the other instructor, and was comfortable with the particular scenario. If may have been as simple as the weather prevented flying that day and the other CFI is unavailable.
 
That's an odd story.

Here's what I found under CFR 61.56:

"(f) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate and who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily completed a renewal of a flight instructor certificate under the provisions in § 61.197 need not accomplish the one hour of ground training specified in paragraph (a) of this section."

Both my Flight Review and CFI renewal were due this month. Finished up the FIRC yesterday via American Flyers. I did the Flight Review first, so I had to do the hour of ground. Next renewal I'll reverse the order, though the ground portion is nothing to fear - especially if a friend is doing it!
 
Some thoughts:

1. ATC uses a predictable language for all of their requests (99% of the time). The book "Say Again Please" is basically their playbook, spelled out in a very easy to understand pattern -- it's worth the money if you ask me:

https://www.amazon.com/Say-Again-Pl...7MFVTC1R/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=

2. The magic words to get ATC to speak to you slowly are to end your initial call with "Student Pilot" -- I know that sucks, you're not a student, but I used this through my IFR training to get them to slow the hell down -- and I'm a native english speaker. Try it out. Use it with each new controller voice you encounter. We're all student pilots every day, or should be, so this is not abusing the system or "lying". It's a signal that you would rather communicate correctly once than have them repeat things twice, and everyone appreciates it.

3. Flying is very expensive. Full stop. There are ways to make it cheaper, but not if you only fly 5 or 10 hours a year. You might offer to do other things at your airport, like safety piloting others, or just be "that guy" at the airport who is always down to go flying. With a family, though, I think you are setting your priorities correctly, if unhappily. Make pilot friends, those friends buy airplanes, those friends can take you flying. Maybe those friends can add you to their insurance policy and you pay for gas. It happens -- not often, but the opportunities are out there.

4. Your hours are good for life, nobody can take them from you. Fish that logbook out of the toilet. LOTS of pilots I know basically took 20 years off to raise a family and then only were able to return to it after the kids were off to school. Flying is a bonfire that you throw your extra cash into.

$0.02
 
Just finished my flight rivew 20 min ago, the CFI told me I was great and very safe!

He also says your radio skills great too!

But he didn't give me discount for yesterday airplane problem!
The A&p told him that the heat was normal and that the indicator pointing almost the red is normal! And if you talk to the manager of the school he my get mad on you and you lose your job !

So I felt sorry about him and told him not to ask for anything so he don't get fired! Or lose his job. At the end he have family. Kids and he want to bring food to feed his littles

We used the 172P early 80s model
Was grate plane, tried to stall it for 5 min straight up, the indicator is reading 0 and the plane kept flying !

This is first time see airplane don't want to stall at all!

Anyway... he explained to me that if I wanted to rent it 10 hours bulk then the rate will be $110 wet
But each flight must be 4 hours min!
Its for time build cross country!

Or Normal rate of $125 hourly all wet rate !
So I spent yesterday $225 and today $254
Plus the First CFI back Jan2020 was $350

But today I got my wings back!
Thank you for your advises

I am sure all these advises are valuable and will use them to get my rating done and may be my CFI!!
Don't know if that possible!
 
A CFI Renewal and a CFI checkride are two different things. A checkride can serve as a renewal, but a renewal isn't always a checkride.
Okay, I was thinking you were talking about checkride, not simply renewal. They did add "renewal" and "reinstatement" into 61.51(d) so they all satisfy the flight review requirement now.

To clarify my position, it’s not that I wouldn’t accept another instructors sign off if I knew the circumstances, or accept one of the standardized training options, it’s just that usually when someone comes in with something out of the ordinary, there’s almost always “more to the story”
Let me clarify then, too.

I don't see as there's anything for you to accept or reject. You accomplish the flight portion of the flight review and provide an endorsement for that. It's not your job to ensure that he also has an endorsement for the ground portion if he didn't ask you to perform that as well.
 
The A&p told him that the heat was normal and that the indicator pointing almost the red is normal!
I was thinking that as well. I haven't flown a C-152 for several decades but remember that the oil temp ran hot in the summer and that wasn't in Phoenix temperatures. You have to keep the airspeed up as much as possible.
 
^^^. Fantastic, now get out there and fly!

Yep man, it was frustrating for while
But I learned that I MUST fly at lease 30min a week just touch and go to keep my bearings smooth!

I will look for place where they need services in hangars or so to get some hours!
I do paint too, also build big scale Rc airplanes
Got lathe and welding skills so it my help one day!

Wish your guys here in AZ then I will have friends to meet!
Thank you
 
Congratulations Omar. I'm one of the AZ guys and as soon as it cools off a bit more, we'll plan a fly in for breakfast somewhere. We're long overdue.
 
Okay, I was thinking you were talking about checkride, not simply renewal. They did add "renewal" and "reinstatement" into 61.51(d) so they all satisfy the flight review requirement now.


Let me clarify then, too.

I don't see as there's anything for you to accept or reject. You accomplish the flight portion of the flight review and provide an endorsement for that. It's not your job to ensure that he also has an endorsement for the ground portion if he didn't ask you to perform that as well.

I was asked to do the flight portion for someone who had a different CFI do the ground. Schedules never worked out, but what do those endorsements look like? The pretty little canned one we find in logbooks covers both, but I didn’t know the verbiage for the single sides. On my phone and don’t have ready access to 61-65.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Why? The regulation allows it. You would only be providing an endorsement for what you did--the flight portion. If the flight portion was satisfactory, on what basis would you refuse to provide an endorsement for it?


That's an odd story.

It used to be assumed that any CFI checkride extended the need for a flight review for another two years, just as any checkride would. AT some point, a legal interpretation proclaimed that CFI checkrides are not "pilot" checkrides so they don't count. That wasn't what the FAA had originally intended so they eventually re-wrote the regulation to specifically include CFI renewal rides in the list of things that satisfy the flight review requirement.


Not necessarily. The tapes are held for some period of time so they may still be available. The conversation is very positive. Just go in with the attitude that you want to learn from the incident. That any controller errors or lack of professionalism will also be addressed is incidental.


@Larry in TN is it possible to endorse someone for some of a flight review? How would you do that? The regulations outline what is required for a cfi to endorse a flight review... it requires flight and ground training to provide the the singular endorsement of a complete flight review. Of course the training can and should be logged but how would your endorsement for the flight review read if it was not satisfactory or incomplete...
 
There is no endorsement if a flight review is unsatisfactory. You just log the instruction-given. If you're only doing one part of it then you can do an endorsement such as,

Mr/Ms ______, holder of pilot certificate number#_____, has satisfactorily completed the one (1) hour of ground training for a flight review required by FAR 61.56(a)(1) on (date).
.
and,

Mr/Ms ______, holder of pilot certificate number#_____, has satisfactorily completed the one (1) hour of flight training for a flight review required by FAR 61.56(a)(2) on (date).
 
I was asked to do the flight portion for someone who had a different CFI do the ground. Schedules never worked out, but what do those endorsements look like? The pretty little canned one we find in logbooks covers both, but I didn’t know the verbiage for the single sides. On my phone and don’t have ready access to 61-65.

AC 61-65 provides "sample endorsements". That's even the title of Appendix A where they are listed. An endorsement can read differently. Most CFIs (like myself) just use the samples word-for-word, because why not? They're clearly acceptable, or they wouldn't be in the document. But that doesn't mean that they are the only acceptable way to word it.

For flight reviews where they complete the ground portion through the Sporty's course, I will endorse like this: "I certify that (name), (certificate), (number), has satisfactorily completed the flight portion of a flight review of 61.56 on (date).

Note I just added the bold part to the sample endorsement. After that I will usually write (just so there's no doubt what's going on), "Ground portion conducted via Sporty's online course."

@Larry in TN is it possible to endorse someone for some of a flight review? How would you do that? The regulations outline what is required for a cfi to endorse a flight review... it requires flight and ground training to provide the the singular endorsement of a complete flight review. Of course the training can and should be logged but how would your endorsement for the flight review read if it was not satisfactory or incomplete...

There is no endorsement for an unsatisfactory flight review. If they complete it successfully, then they get the endorsement. If not, then they do get a training entry, but we come back and try again (or they go somewhere else).
 
AC 61-65 provides "sample endorsements". That's even the title of Appendix A where they are listed. An endorsement can read differently. Most CFIs (like myself) just use the samples word-for-word, because why not? They're clearly acceptable, or they wouldn't be in the document. But that doesn't mean that they are the only acceptable way to word it.

For flight reviews where they complete the ground portion through the Sporty's course, I will endorse like this: "I certify that (name), (certificate), (number), has satisfactorily completed the flight portion of a flight review of 61.56 on (date).

Note I just added the bold part to the sample endorsement. After that I will usually write (just so there's no doubt what's going on), "Ground portion conducted via Sporty's online course."



There is no endorsement for an unsatisfactory flight review. If they complete it successfully, then they get the endorsement. If not, then they do get a training entry, but we come back and try again (or they go somewhere else).
I know there isn’t an endorsement for an unsatisfactory flight review. Your example with the added language to the recommended endorsement is on point for what I was asking.

I’ve never had to deal with this before. Only had a few people need extra training to satisfy me for the endorsement but in each of those cases we both knew that going into the lesson so I waited until we were done after a couple of lessons.
 
Thank
Congratulations Omar. I'm one of the AZ guys and as soon as it cools off a bit more, we'll plan a fly in for breakfast somewhere. We're long overdue.
Thank you so much Tim, will be my pleasure to fly with you !
Love to have friends here in AZ, I had breakfast north west were is the gliding airport with friend of meine about 9 years a go, was great experience! And delicious food' then we tried gliders and I got one hour training
Then we headed back to KDVT !
My Email is sumer_art@yahoo.com
Send me an email so I can text you my phone number
thanks
Omar
 
Thank

Thank you so much Tim, will be my pleasure to fly with you !

You say that now, but wait until after you’ve flown with him. :)

And Omar, because I like you, I will warn you that Tim is NOT the guy in the maroon golf shirt and hat!

Seriously, he’s a good dude and was very hospitable when I was in town for training.
 
Thank
Congratulations Omar. I'm one of the AZ guys and as soon as it cools off a bit more, we'll plan a fly in for breakfast somewhere. We're long overdue.
Thank you so much Tim, will be my pleasure to fly with you !
Love to have friends here in AZ, I had breakfast north west were is the gliding airport with friend of meine about 9 years a go, was great experience! And delicious food' then we tried gliders and I got one hour training
Then we headed back to KDVT !
My Email is sumer_art@yahoo.com
Send me an email so I can text you my phone number
thanks
Omar
You say that now, but wait until after you’ve flown with him. :)

And Omar, because I like you, I will warn you that Tim is NOT the guy in the maroon golf shirt and hat!

Seriously, he’s a good dude and was very hospitable when I was in town for training.

I thank you sir, it's very nice to meet new friends with different experience and I eccept all the unger to learn new stuff and be better pilot!

I remember back in the days when my father wanted to teach me driving Man you don't imagine the Unger and the yalling inside the car! He almost hit me one time ... I think that is why I never caused car accidents in my life!

As long as there is good breakfast the rest is fine
 
I know as my old CFI told me when I was first doing dual training: that the ATC will come with the time and nobody perfect with that, specially if your english not the mother language.. !
But with the time u become better!
That is why I don't fly faraway and don't go to complicated airspace, just flying around small airports and practice with my ATC APP

I have total of about 80 hours now, still not much but if this repeated again and again will make it hard to trust schools anymore! My goal was to get my 50 hours cross-country done so I can get my IFR
So I been saving each cent for all IFR stuff but now I am bleeding becaue of these two situations!

I understand that ATC is important, but I was about to ask the Tower to repeat it or say it slowly!
Parts of this is what strikes me.... if you want your IR as a goal, ATC communications are absolute key. Plus, at times, it gets very busy. That doesn’t mean you can’t ask for clarification, but you really do need to be on the ball with ATC if your goal is to get the IR.
Unlike VFR, ATC is a HUGE part of going IFR.
 
Your right, ATC is Must and I give myself 5\10 but I have plan..
I am going 50 hours cross country and that will help a lot in ATC, plus that I am setting the new FSX with real-time ATC that will even get me more into ATC improvement!
The other thing, I got advise from somebody here to invest in aviation reciever so I can go to the airport set and listen!

Omar
 
Nice work Omar!! Happy to hear the good news. Flying is awesome, sometimes discouraging, usually expensive, but in the end an extremely rewarding hobby

CONGRATS!!
 
Nice work Omar!! Happy to hear the good news. Flying is awesome, sometimes discouraging, usually expensive, but in the end an extremely rewarding hobby

CONGRATS!!
Thank you so much

I am now putting 4 hours a month as it must to fly to stay with the flow!

I am selling my car and putting some money on the top to buy 172 around 80s model
Made few calls yesterday and figured out the fixed cost and the variable costs ..
Called the airport for coverd tie down
And made call talking to A&P about the annual inspection with what to expect from it!
I may have partnership also after getting the plane!

I figured that it maybe better to get airplane with low TT flight time and high engine and prop hours .then invest in overhaul the engine and the prop to get fresh start!

The only problem with finding good airplane!
The cessna market looks like its way over priced!

I never liked controller or trade a plane websites for the prices !
But will check here in this website or localy if anybody welling to sale his airplane

Thank you
 
Congrats Omar but I have to say, I don’t understand how you got from frustration on spending a few hundred dollars on your second flight review attempt to plans on buying an airplane. All within one week. That has to be a record!
 
Congrats Omar but I have to say, I don’t understand how you got from frustration on spending a few hundred dollars on your second flight review attempt to plans on buying an airplane. All within one week. That has to be a record!

Well that is good question here !
I set with my wife and we had a conversation about 2 options
And Since I must fly more then more $$ will burn

1 is to stay from school to another, spending more money on rentals and if I want to build even more hours then will spend more dollars, that will cost me maybe around few thousands every year

2 sale the other car that we dont really use it a lot, and put some money that we saved for the kids collage now since they are still little and we still have almost 10 more years for the collages
And invest the money in good airplane that we can own it then probably sale it after few years and get the money back to the kids!

Since the airplane market like a real-estate now, so maybe we will not loss anything at the time if we sale !
I am talking about something under 70k

Also we can add another 1 or 2 partners to cut the cost that way I can fly cheaper and at anytime!

I calculated the annual cost will be around 2k and the hourly rate will be $70-$80
But then its better than the car that setting in the garage half of the week not using it. And the value of the car drop every hour!
Just idea

And in that way. I can fly every weekend and not to worry about booking, school rate and their airplanes with problems! And so on
 
Last edited:
Omar, you had the problem at Glendale, lol. I got chewed out 3 times by a controller there for screwing up my initial call to that tower. I forgot to tell him where I was. I was getting checked out in a new to me airplane, the instructor told me we would go there and warned me the controllers could be crabby. I'm not sure if I was thinking about that when I called him, but I screwed up. He had one other airplane in the pattern, a 152 and I was flying a 22T.

Anyway, I made the initial call, then realized I forgot to tell him where I was, he started immediately to give instructions to the 152. I turned to the instructor and said, "damn, I messed that up" he just shook his head and said "yes you did", any way the guy comes back to me, all ****ed off, and say " Cirrus xxxx you did not tell me where you are, I have no idea where you are, you need to be better on the radio!" So I call him back and say "Sorry about that, then redo the call with my location", he tells me to report the power plant. About 10 seconds later he lays into me again something like, " I expect good radio calls from you if you want to fly in my pattern...." he went on long enough for me to turn to the instructor and say "I guess I deserved this", the instructor said, "No one deserves this", I laughed, and said, "don't worry, I can take it". When he finished, I just said "got it."

So I get to the downwind, standard procedure I've been taught in the Cirrus is 120 knot indicated downwind, slow to 100 by abeam the numbers. If there is slower traffic ahead, I can slow to 90, with half flaps, but that is getting slow in a 22 and I prefer not to do it. The 152 was on final at this point. So I get to the downwind, with perfect radio calls I might add, and the guy calls me up again and says "Cirrus XXX, if you want to fly in my pattern, you need to SLOW DOWN!!" So I called him back, and said " I'm indicating 120 knots, I'll slow to 100 by the time I get to the numbers on downwind." He says, "I have a 152 in the pattern, and a Eurcoupe. The Eurcoupe was 10 miles away, I had him on adsb, and the 152 was on a short final, so I said to him "152 in sight". After that he left me alone, and started busting the Eurcoupe's balls, I felt bad for that guy, he got rattled and you could hear a female controller in the background, egging Mr. Personality controller on.

So the controllers in that tower have a reputation apparently and I guess the point of my story is it does no good to get mad at them, and no good to argue with them. Just be professional and do what you need to do. I'm thinking your instructor is up tight about those controllers which is why he got mad at you. If it happened the way you said, then that is not right, but I'm thinking there is more to his refusal to sign you off than that one incident. You have a wife and kids, instead of worrying about the cost, worry about being safe in all circumstances.

And yes, I did get signed off that day for the airplane, but that's another story.
I'm sorry to hear that about Glendale, because it's the airport I use to visit my brother. The only time the tower controller has complained about something I did, I deserved it, but he didn't go on and on about it like that. However it's been a couple of years since the last time I flew there, so maybe they've gotten worse.
 
I'm sorry to hear that about Glendale, because it's the airport I use to visit my brother. The only time the tower controller has complained about something I did, I deserved it, but he didn't go on and on about it like that. However it's been a couple of years since the last time I flew there, so maybe they've gotten worse.
Right
But remamber important thing here
If you don't understand them you have the RIGHT for your safety and others to ask them to repeat it!
And if they got Mad about that I guess they need to quit this job! Yes maybe you must be nice to all not just controllers but IF they get mad because you asking them to repeat it or say is slowly them its their own life problem not you!

If you don't like to repeat commands and say it slowly to people they ask for clarification, then been a controller can cause more harm to avieation and give that scary feeling to the new students to be glitching in the radio!
 
Right
But remamber important thing here
If you don't understand them you have the RIGHT for your safety and others to ask them to repeat it!
And if they got Mad about that I guess they need to quit this job! Yes maybe you must be nice to all not just controllers but IF they get mad because you asking them to repeat it or say is slowly them its their own life problem not you!

If you don't like to repeat commands and say it slowly to people they ask for clarification, then been a controller can cause more harm to avieation and give that scary feeling to the new students to be glitching in the radio!
Communication is a two way street. They should not give your grief for having to repeat themselves, but it is human nature to express frustration when someone is making your job harder. You should strive to be ready and have an idea what they are going to say so you can process it easier. I’m not saying you shouldn’t ever have to ask “say again, slower”, but you should strive to reduce the frequency of doing so.
 
Right
But remamber important thing here
If you don't understand them you have the RIGHT for your safety and others to ask them to repeat it!
And if they got Mad about that I guess they need to quit this job! Yes maybe you must be nice to all not just controllers but IF they get mad because you asking them to repeat it or say is slowly them its their own life problem not you!

If you don't like to repeat commands and say it slowly to people they ask for clarification, then been a controller can cause more harm to avieation and give that scary feeling to the new students to be glitching in the radio!

I’m having a hard time believing this is for real. Maybe you should work on improving your communications instead of telling controllers they should quit.
 
I'm sorry to hear that about Glendale, because it's the airport I use to visit my brother. The only time the tower controller has complained about something I did, I deserved it, but he didn't go on and on about it like that. However it's been a couple of years since the last time I flew there, so maybe they've gotten worse.

I like to give controllers the benefit of the doubt and think the guy was just having a bad day. I did set him off by screwing up the call, but his reaction was way out of proportion to the mistake, to any mistake really. I guess I'm just lucky that way.... lol. I've made it a point in my flying, not to let a pushy controller rattle me and honestly that was the worst I've ever encountered. If I'm screwing up something, let me know, I'll fix it. Save the drama, be professional.

I suppose in thinking about it, the problem I have is that the CFI I was with warned me about the controllers there having a reputation with this type of behavior, which bothered him enough to mention it. Then Omar's issue there seems to me the result of his CFI not wanting to be yelled at. This in turn, I believe, is not a good lesson for a student or any pilot, the message being that we have to pussyfoot around certain controllers so as to not upset them. That's wrong, and could be deadly to a timid pilot with a problem but in fear he may get chewed out.

I probably should have made a stink about it, but it was 6 months ago.
 
Nothing against our new friend Omar here but the Phoenix controllers are overrun with "foreign" pilots and they have to repeat themselves a LOT. I spent a year in Korea as a controller and getting the local dialect was a challenge. I called this one helicopter "Hominy" for two months until I realized he was saying "Army" as in South Korean Army. I fly into Phoenix and without fail, I'll hear the controllers repeat themselves several times, or ask a question several times just because a pilot cannot understand or speak English. Meanwhile, all the other traffic is piling up and waiting to talk to the controller. Its very frustrating I'm sure. The weather in Arizona is conducive to a lot of flight training from foreign countries and there are a lot of schools in the area who train foreign pilots.
I've flown into Glendale four times and not once have I experienced a grumpy controller. Maybe I'm just lucky.
 
My suggestion for the OP. If you enjoy flying, then enjoy the flights you are doing to get the flight review done. What’s the hurry?

I think that attitude may let you relax and have a good time.
 
Many people look at training (or recurrency) as something you have to do to -get- to the flying. “I have to spend $10,000 before I can fly?” Well, you ARE flying. All that time.

If you look at it as you ARE flying, it puts you in a better frame of mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Many people look at training (or recurrency) as something you have to do to -get- to the flying. “I have to spend $10,000 before I can fly?”

Off topic, but I know someone - not an owner -who recently completed legally required annual currency training for the Cirrus jet. All simulator and oral over 3 days. Coincidentally, $10,000.
 
Being a native speaker is no guarantee of speaking understandable English. I was crewed with a fellow from Arkansas and whenever he led a formation, the entire formation would log a comm jamming training event. Having a French controller asking what language he was speaking as we were climbing out of a low level route was epic.

Good luck on buying an airplane. Just remember that it's generally less expensive to rent anything that flies, floats or f.... I would definitely find some partners to spread the cost.
 
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