IFR with summer thunderstorms question

[steviedeviant]

Hey POA! Question as we are now in summer season. I fly mostly VFR but I do have my instrument rating. I fly around class C airspace most often.

Suppose you have filed a flight plan IFR and you are starting decent per instructions of ATC. let’s also assume that this is most VfR weather with just a lot of puffy white clouds around you. During these summer months you get a lot of clouds that maybe some you want to avoid that are just popped up around you. It probably isn’t good to ask for multiple deviations when you are getting closer or in the obstructed decent.

How do you handle this? Would it be better just to go ahead and close out IFR plan well outside the class c space and then decent and continue VFR?

I typically avoid any clouds that have some height to them. I may be being too strict about which clouds I am willing to fly in and out of during this time of year.

Thoughts?

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

Perhaps a good place to approach this is by being able to more easily identify hazardous vs non-hazardous clouds?

All clouds are not the same.

 

[TCABM]

My first rule of thunderstorms is to not FAFO. Beyond that, a lot of the answers to your question are dependent in what’s happening at that time.

 

[tsts4]

I ask for deviations all the time. If it’s a lot of weaving enroute a lot of times I get a deviate as necessary instruction advice when back on course, If I’m close to the airport and it’s just normal run of the mill cumulus (nothing towering) I’ll fly through them on decent as I’m usually through them in quick order. However, if it’s VMC there’s nothing wrong in canceling either.

 

[Country Flier]

Deviations to avoid thunderstorms: Yes.

Deviations to avoid (momentary) clouds: NO! That is the point of being IFR. Either avoid clouds VFR, or fly through them. "Puffy white clouds" can be bumpy, but so? If you are in a terminal area, you will probably going slower anyway.

Edit: On first glance I thought your question referred to approach/landing only. While inroute, I ONLY avoid thunderstorms VFR...now I may be on an IFR flight plan, but if I can't stay clear of layers, etc, I either land or cancel IFR and stay VFR...

 

[texasclouds]

“Center, Slowtation 12345, request deviations for buildups”

“Deviations right or left of course approved, advised when direct xxx”

I will avoid clouds like the plague to make sure my VIPs are getting a smooth ride.

 

[Rockymountain]

Hey POA! Question as we are now in summer season. I fly mostly VFR but I do have my instrument rating. I fly around class C airspace most often.

Suppose you have filed a flight plan IFR and you are starting decent per instructions of ATC. let’s also assume that this is most VfR weather with just a lot of puffy white clouds around you. During these summer months you get a lot of clouds that maybe some you want to avoid that are just popped up around you. It probably isn’t good to ask for multiple deviations when you are getting closer or in the obstructed decent.

How do you handle this? Would it be better just to go ahead and close out IFR plan well outside the class c space and then decent and continue VFR?

I typically avoid any clouds that have some height to them. I may be being too strict about which clouds I am willing to fly in and out of during this time of year.

Thoughts?

If you want your passengers to ever ride with you again, deviate around anything more than a few thousand feet that looks like a cumulus. A towering cumulus 10-15,000 feet tall can be dangerous to a small plane, and anything 15,000 feet and taller is going to hurt, and after that starts bordering on a thunderstorm.

So ask for the deviations. If I see a popcorn field ahead, I might ask for minor right left deviations. And ATC will come back with right and left deviations approved, notify when back direct to XYZ. Sometimes they will give limits such as minor deviations 20 degrees right 10 degrees left or similar. And if it is a baby cloud, just remember on an airway, you can be 4 miles right or left of centerline, so you don't even need to ask for really minor deviations. Now if ATC sees you make a dramatic turn, they may query you, but that is not a bust, they just dont expect it. As you get in the terminal, tolerances are less, but you can still deviate with ATC permission. This was a real mess getting into KISM, but ATC was very accommodating. I had XM and onboard radar. Would not get this close to this type weather with just satellite radar.

 

[midlifeflyer]

For scattered or isolated, it's often clear between them, give them a wide berth. With good cockpit tools, you can do that even if otherwise IMC. But always remember that ADS-B is strategic, not tactical. In areas where they are common, ATC is typically a huge help. For lines, no-go or, if enroute divert and land until the pass.

As part of your planning, select enroute alternates - decision points where you plan a divert-continue decision.

This video is after one of my diversions for a line of storms, you don't want to be in the air when this comes along. This was after seeing the line moving toward us faster than expected.

 

[Salty]

I may be being too strict about which clouds I am willing to fly in and out of during this time of year.

no you aren’t. Don’t even need to know more. Follow your instincts on that one.

the odds of ending up in a smoldering crater for avoiding those clouds is infinitely lower than if you go in them.

 

[EdFred]

Hey POA! Question as we are now in summer season. I fly mostly VFR but I do have my instrument rating. I fly around class C airspace most often.

Suppose you have filed a flight plan IFR and you are starting decent per instructions of ATC. let’s also assume that this is most VfR weather with just a lot of puffy white clouds around you. During these summer months you get a lot of clouds that maybe some you want to avoid that are just popped up around you. It probably isn’t good to ask for multiple deviations when you are getting closer or in the obstructed decent.

How do you handle this? Would it be better just to go ahead and close out IFR plan well outside the class c space and then decent and continue VFR?

I typically avoid any clouds that have some height to them. I may be being too strict about which clouds I am willing to fly in and out of during this time of year.

Thoughts?

Define "some height."
3,000 vertical development?
30,000 vertical development?

 

[luvflyin]

Hey POA! Question as we are now in summer season. I fly mostly VFR but I do have my instrument rating. I fly around class C airspace most often.

Suppose you have filed a flight plan IFR and you are starting decent per instructions of ATC. let’s also assume that this is most VfR weather with just a lot of puffy white clouds around you. During these summer months you get a lot of clouds that maybe some you want to avoid that are just popped up around you. It probably isn’t good to ask for multiple deviations when you are getting closer or in the obstructed decent.

How do you handle this? Would it be better just to go ahead and close out IFR plan well outside the class c space and then decent and continue VFR?

I typically avoid any clouds that have some height to them. I may be being too strict about which clouds I am willing to fly in and out of during this time of year.

Thoughts?

Nuthin wrong with asking for deviations. If you get the feeling that it's stressing the Controller out then you might go ahead and cancel if you care. Or if you aren't getting timely approvals to your requests.

 

[FORANE]

I do have my instrument rating.
Suppose you have filed a flight plan IFR and you are starting decent per instructions of ATC. let’s also assume that this is most VfR weather with just a lot of puffy white clouds around you. During these summer months you get a lot of clouds that maybe some you want to avoid that are just popped up around you. It probably isn’t good to ask for multiple deviations when you are getting closer or in the obstructed decent.

How do you handle this?

Thoughts?

Request Contact Approach.
IFR scud running...

 

[Larry in TN]

Don't be shy about asking for deviations. You don't have to accept moderate, or stronger, turbulence for controller convenience. Ask for what you need. Don't fly into anything that you don't know is safe to fly through.

Don't be afraid to change "request" to "requires" when the need is there. i.e. "[Callsign], requires left deviations for weather"

It is sometimes useful to request "small deviations left and right for weather" when you're trying to stay out of bumpy cumulous clouds.

ATC will not paint all dangerous cells on their radar. They won't paint them until there is sufficient moisture and that doesn't occur until after the cell has does some significant building.

When possible, get an altitude that allows you to see the build-ups and/or the rain shafts so that you can avoid them visually.

 

[asicer]

Define "some height."
3,000 vertical development?
30,000 vertical development?

How about aspect ratio?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Go for the deviations request. If it assures you in any way, every airliner, possibly everyone ahead of you has already done it along that same route.

 

[PaulS]

Curious as to why you think it isn’t a good idea to ask for multiple deviations? Thinking like that can get you killed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Curious as to why you think it isn’t a good idea to ask for multiple deviations? Thinking like that can get you killed.

Good question.

It probably isn’t good to ask for multiple deviations when you are getting closer or in the obstructed decent

This may well be when most deviations take place. The jets are down out of the flight levels to join the pistons. It's when everyone is asking and ATC is doing great work handing them out.

I'm going to suggest a YouTube search. Pop up thunderstorm are pretty much a daily event in Florida, so maybe searching for something like flying Florida thunderstorms. I think I've seen a few good ones by Baron Pilot.

 

[kaiser]

It depends, but ATC works for you so…

“Center, Slowtation 12345, request deviations for buildups”

“Deviations right or left of course approved, advised when direct xxx”

I will avoid clouds like the plague to make sure my VIPs are getting a smooth ride.

This. Work the system.

From your example on starting the descent, I'm assuming your cruise was somewhere 6-12k and probably in a light airplane. If tops are below your cruise and any cumulus hasn't gone T storm, I'm probably ok punching through. A typical scenario I see is bases 3k tops 8k. Sure it's bumpy, and you absolutely should be ready on your gauges. But if it hasn't matured, dissipated or hasn't started throwing lightning, it's probably ok. I feel like my rule of thumb is based on size of the cloud. Bases 3k tops 8k and 1nm wide - probably; bases 8k tops 10k 20nm wide - sure; bases 2k tops 14k and 1nm wide - no way; bases 2k tops 35k and 20nm wide - I'm probably avoiding it by 30-50nm. Also read the radar, it might clue you into how much energy is in each cloud. It's the energy in the system you do not want to transition into the airframe, or your back!

Another thought - use your EFB/ADS-B data and see what other traffic (of similar airframe size) is doing.

 

[mandm]

When you are next to a cell in VMC, you’ll likely be moving before ATC gives you the go ahead. Fly the airplane and deviate as often as you need.

 

[chemgeek]

ATC is very accommodating with enroute deviation requests. The sky is big. The only fly in the ointment is when trying to deviate when available routing is restricted by MOAs and such, then it can get tricky to get the deviation you need to avoid weather, but usually things can be worked out. Enroute, I will definitely avoid towering cumulus. If I can't get above clouds or between layers when CBs are around in order to maintain good eyball contact, I'm usually thinking this isn't the best time to be IMC in a little flib. Early mornings are a great time to fly in the summer isolated CB season, before things get wild and wooly.

 

[PaulS]

Towering cumulus look different at 8,000 feet compared to ground level. I was shock when my CFII first said to me "look at that cloud", I looked, we were at 8,000 feet, it didn't look that impressive to me. I said "ya", he said, don't go in a cloud like that, it will kill you. I really took that to heart and know better now. The other thing to watch for is that many soon to be dangerous clouds look like you can outclimb them.... but you can't, remember that.

 

[sourdough44]

On top of all the above, any aviator worth his(her) salt has ads or XM weather. With that info you’ll know what to expect ahead. If it gets to dicey with hidden/embedded thunderstorms, avoid, divert, or land short.

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

On top of all the above, any aviator worth his(her) salt has ads or XM weather. With that info you’ll know what to expect ahead.

In our EAA IFR meetup last night it was mentioned over and over how this info is historical data and not the situation at that moment. Consensus was you have to leave a big buffer between you and the storm cells because the picture you see on the screen is not accurate.

 

[frfly172]

Florida has pop up thunderstorms almost every day. The controllers not only grant deviations on a regular basis,but will suggest heading changes to keep you out of the weather if VFR.

 

[Pinecone]

In our EAA IFR meetup last night it was mentioned over and over how this info is historical data and not the situation at that moment. Consensus was you have to leave a big buffer between you and the storm cells because the picture you see on the screen is not accurate.

There have been several fatal mishaps from people thinking that FIS-B or XM weather was real time.

 

[MajorTurbulence]

For scattered or isolated, it's often clear between them, give them a wide berth. With good cockpit tools, you can do that even if otherwise IMC. But always remember that ADS-B is strategic, not tactical. In areas where they are common, ATC is typically a huge help. For lines, no-go or, if enroute divert and land until the pass.

As part of your planning, select enroute alternates - decision points where you plan a divert-continue decision point.

This video is after one of my diversions for a line of storms, you don't want to be in the air when this comes along. This was after seeing the line moving toward us faster than expected.

That sequence is wild. If I hadn’t seen the airplane next to yours,it would not have been obvious that you were on the ground; then I would be asking how that footage was possibly from a preceding aircraft.

 

[MajorTurbulence]

In our EAA IFR meetup last night it was mentioned over and over how this info is historical data and not the situation at that moment. Consensus was you have to leave a big buffer between you and the storm cells because the picture you see on the screen is not accurate.

That is a very good point.

ATC will not paint all dangerous cells on their radar. They won't paint them until there is sufficient moisture and that doesn't occur until after the cell has does some significant building.

In fact, not all ATC radars are great for thunderstorm avoidance, but I think the Dopplers are.(Anyone, please comment on which ATC weather technology is real-time and acurate for weather, and which facilities have them). ATC may be looking at something like you have on your ADSB cockpit display and give you recommendations that are wrong because of that historical time delay. When that last happened to me, ATC was suggesting to me the places to fly through where the buildups were not showing on my adsb display. However, my eyeballs and Stormscope were telling me to go where ATC thought was Ill advised. My path was pretty smooth.

 

[Daleandee]

There have been several fatal mishaps from people thinking that FIS-B or XM weather was real time.

Yep. I've posted this before. It is quite sad to listen to the voice of the pilot making, what seems to be, rational decisions by the information he has available. Obviously he did not realize how delayed that info was:

 

[midlifeflyer]

That sequence is wild. If I hadn’t seen the airplane next to yours,it would not have been obvious that you were on the ground; then I would be asking how that footage was possibly from a preceding aircraft.

The story behind the video is partly in the description. We were heading home. There was a line of storms forecast to come into our area later. We kept an eye on it with ADS-B/FIS-B and noticed it was moving much faster than predicted. We were still a good distance away but diversion became a "when?" rather than a "whether?" and I started considering the options - plenty of them along our route. Finally told ATC we were "diverting to land at KGWW for weather," and were cleared for the visual.

Immediately after, ATC called the Skylane. "Do you have weather onboard?" "Yes. We'd like to divert to Wayne County too." They landed shortly after us.

This was about 10-15 minutes later.

 

[sourdough44]

I get a little tired of hearing the reminder that the radar ‘depiction’ is a bit old, no kidding. No one(shouldn’t be) expecting one to fly based on the pictures on the iPad(wherever). Say the picture is 15 minutes old, or even 30 minutes, still better than what you saw on the FBO computer 2 hours prior.

Besides that picture, you look out the windscreen, that’s the most important.

Look at how we’ve trained, then talk about fuel management, yet there are still lapses with running low on fuel.

 

[EdFred]

Besides that picture, you look out the windscreen, that’s the most important.

That's fine if VMC, but if I'm already up to my eyes in gazpacho that doesn't work so well.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I get a little tired of hearing the reminder that the radar ‘depiction’ is a bit old, no kidding.

The reminder doesn't tire me at all. What tires me is that too many pilots need the reminder.

 

[Clip4]

You are PIC, ask for a deviation. ATC might advise you in the Class C if they have been getting pilots reports of turbulence as they vector planes through an area.

 

[PaulS]

I get a little tired of hearing the reminder that the radar ‘depiction’ is a bit old, no kidding. No one(shouldn’t be) expecting one to fly based on the pictures on the iPad(wherever). Say the picture is 15 minutes old, or even 30 minutes, still better than what you saw on the FBO computer 2 hours prior.

Besides that picture, you look out the windscreen, that’s the most important.

Look at how we’ve trained, then talk about fuel management, yet there are still lapses with running low on fuel.

You are correct in that you are getting relatively current pictures. Where people get into trouble is trying to thread the needle with that information. I'm always amazed at how far off the adsb and xm depictions are when flying in rainy weather. Thinking of these displays as onboard radar is a big mistake.

 

[Steamflyer]

Why fly around Class C most often?

Deviations IFR are not hard to get, sometimes even left or right of course by some number of degrees.

But if the goal is to never dip a wing in the cotton candy while IFR in a field of popcorn, might be better to stay higher or lower VFR.


Know thine clouds.

 

[midwestpa24]

If I've said this once, I've said it a thousand times, don't let someone not in your airplane fly your airplane. Work with ATC and tell them clearly what you need. Don't let them kill you, you have enough chances to do that yourself without their help.

 

[Tokirbymd]

Flying in the southeast this is every afternoon, particularly as I get closer to the coast. You have to kind of learn by experience which clouds are "a bit bumpy" vs which ones will cause you to hit your head on the ceiling. If I see any vertical movement visually approaching them, I avoid them. Sometimes a simple 500-1000' slight deviation is enough, and from ATC perspective (as long as you don't turn 20 deg to do it and trigger an alert for them) wouldn't be any more noticeable than someone hand flying. I don't hesitate to tell them I'm deviating (if I see angry stuff, I let them know I will be deviating and give them the option of which direction if applicable). But ATC doesn't want you ripping the wings off or becoming uncontrollable any more than you do- too much paperwork for them . In my experience, as long as I can get a word in, they are always helpful with necessary deviations.

 

[Velocity173]

It sucks for the controller but as a pilot, you gotta do what’s necessary to stay safe. My buddy worked some of this on approach. He was also a controller extra in the movie Sully. Typical summer day in the southeast.

 

[sonopoa]

You are pilot in command. Captain of the flight. You are well qualified. Why are you asking on a forum what to do about dangerous weather.

 

[Clip4]

The reminder doesn't tire me at all. What tires me is that too many pilots need the reminder.

A reminder assumes they first knew it.