Ever a reason to activate VTF??

I answered the question as, "is there every a reason to use VTF instead of some other method." Not, "are there times VTF is ok or useful?"
wasn't meant to be argumentative, just as a point / counterpoint. I hadn't thought about the VTF functionality to aid planning approaches on VFR days

It really can get you jammed up when IFR. They get you on vectors, you load VTF (for some reason) and if they point you or break you off for some reason you're in for a world of pain
 
wasn't meant to be argumentative, just as a point / counterpoint. I hadn't thought about the VTF functionality to aid planning approaches on VFR days

It really can get you jammed up when IFR. They get you on vectors, you load VTF (for some reason) and if they point you or break you off for some reason you're in for a world of pain
I'm not arguing either way. I pretty much agree. The first time I encountered it was long before the AIM cautioned against it (back in the pre iPad Stone Age :)). It happened to a friend during an approach. I was his safety pilot.

OTOH there really is nothing wrong, for example, with going to VTF once beyond any reasonable likelihood of being sent to another fix. I used to switch to VTF about the time they are going to give you the base turn. They would have to turn me away and resequence me for it to matter at that point and I'd have plenty of time to reload.

but while I share your preference, I still don't understand "world of pain," at least with GA avionics. I understand there are some airline FMS systems where reloading an approach doesn't take the 5-10 seconds it does with a GNS, GTN, G1000, or IFD. It's really the same as if you were expecting vectors to a runway, set it up and ATC switched you to another runway.
 
I've only been flying IFR for a year but I find VTF no big deal on a 530. It take 3 button pushes to reload. I may end up with two approaches tomorrow. Maybe I'll delay my VTF until later in the sequence and see how I like it.
 
world of pain
I mean I guess it's not really that bad, but when you're single pilot IFR it's just that many more potential steps. The real thing that screwed me up once was was hitting the 'susp' button accidentally. That sucked
 
I mean I guess it's not really that bad, but when you're single pilot IFR it's just that many more potential steps. The real thing that screwed me up once was was hitting the 'susp' button accidentally. That sucked
They key with some if these is familiarity. That's why it takes some 6 seconds to reload an approach, while others state at the box trying to figure out what to do.
 
but while I share your preference, I still don't understand "world of pain," at least with GA avionics. I understand there are some airline FMS systems where reloading an approach doesn't take the 5-10 seconds it does with a GNS, GTN, G1000, or IFD. It's really the same as if you were expecting vectors to a runway, set it up and ATC switched you to another runway.
My Garmin flying is relegated to the G-5000 trainer. As Garmin goes, this trainer is old technology. But, if I activated VTF (which I never would, but just saying...) if I need to reload the full approach after having selected VTF, it's just >flight plan >edit flight plan, then select the desired IAF or feeder fix. Surely, the more recent Garmin avionics have that capability (?)
 
My Garmin flying is relegated to the G-5000 trainer. As Garmin goes, this trainer is old technology. But, if I activated VTF (which I never would, but just saying...) if I need to reload the full approach after having selected VTF, it's just >flight plan >edit flight plan, then select the desired IAF or feeder fix. Surely, the more recent Garmin avionics have that capability (?)
Even easier. Hit the PROC key and load what you want. No need to edit or remove the existing plan. The new approach replaces the old.
 
sure there's a reason to activate VTF......when you're getting vectors to final.

can't speak for the avidyne but when you load an ILS in the GTN it will load the freq in STANDBY. I can't imagine loading an approach in the 550 activates that freq when you load it but who knows. if you use VTF correctly, it works. if you don't, it doesn't. activate leg will also work if you do it correctly and won't if you don't.

In our area almost all of the approaches have multiple fixes leading straight into the FAF. I regularly receive "vectors for the ILS XX", followed by "2 miles from [one of those fixes before the FAF but inside an IAF] maintain XXXX until established, cleared...". In those cases I almost always need the approach loaded from a relevant IAF in order to identify the fixes before the FAF for stepping down. Even if I get a verbal agreement from the controller to try and vector me inside the last fix before the FAF- that plan goes out the window half the time due to how busy IFR traffic is and I end up vectored onto the approach a fix or two outside the FAF. So, for me, VTF never really makes sense.
 
In our area almost all of the approaches have multiple fixes leading straight into the FAF. I regularly receive "vectors for the ILS XX", followed by "2 miles from [one of those fixes before the FAF but inside an IAF] maintain XXXX until established, cleared...". In those cases I almost always need the approach loaded from a relevant IAF in order to identify the fixes before the FAF for stepping down. Even if I get a verbal agreement from the controller to try and vector me inside the last fix before the FAF- that plan goes out the window half the time due to how busy IFR traffic is and I end up vectored onto the approach a fix or two outside the FAF. So, for me, VTF never really makes sense.
Is it possible to navigate to the first fix on the final approach course and select the bearing to the fix in a Garmin?
 
I believe that would be more key strokes.
I don't know the "edit" system but loading an approach is as common a task as pushing the Direct button for an instrument pilot while it sounds like"editing" an approach takes place far less often, so loading's 5 taps in a GTN has the advantage of familiarity.
 
I don't know the "edit" system but loading an approach is as common a task as pushing the Direct button for an instrument pilot while it sounds like"editing" an approach takes place far less often, so loading's 5 taps in a GTN has the advantage of familiarity.
Must be a Garmin FMS feature. The G-5000 is certified under Part 25. The edit function prevents the possibility of loading the wrong IAP when attempting to reload an IAP.
 
If I understand your question, yes. If you have an example I can be more definite.
Sounds like this VTF thing only loads approach from the FAF through missed approach. Let’s say there are three fixes prior to the FAF on the final approach course. Why not load the full approach and then go to the first fix on the final but set it to the final approach course instead of direct to the fix. Same as vectors to final but keep all the points on the final segment prior to the FAF. Then it doesn’t matter what fix the controller references on the final approach course. They are all still in the box but still get the vector to final. Pretty much every box I’ve ever twiddled or pushed buttons on allows this setup. If the garmins don’t they should add the ability.
 
my experience here in the flatlands is that when ATC vectors me to final they are vectoring me to the faf. i activate vtf when being vectored. i usually am either navigating to destination or activated on an approach. rarely am i in a situation that the approach is loaded but not activated.

i've been witness to some pretty incredible scrambling, button mashing and knob twisting in major panic states watching some instrument applicants try to sort this stuff out. you have to know how to use your equipment!
 
FWIW - I see that always loading the full approach and then just activating what you need when the time comes is indeed easy and takes few key strokes. Key stroke one - Select Procedure, then key stroke two - Activate or Activate VTF.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like this VTF thing only loads approach from the FAF through missed approach. Let’s say there are three fixes prior to the FAF on the final approach course. Why not load the full approach and then go to the first fix on the final but set it to the final approach course instead of direct to the fix. Same as vectors to final but keep all the points on the final segment prior to the FAF. Then it doesn’t matter what fix the controller references on the final approach course. They are all still in the box but still get the vector to final. Pretty much every box I’ve ever twiddled or pushed buttons on allows this setup. If the garmins don’t they should add the ability.
I guess I didn't understand your question.
 
FWIW - I see that always loading the full approach and then just activating what your need when the time comes is indeed easy and takes few key strokes. Key stroke one - Select Procedure, then key stroke two - Activate or Activate VTF.
...or activate the appropriate leg.
 
It’s ok. I don’t know the garmin vocabulary. Makes it harder to ask the questions.
It wasn't a Garmin language thing. I answered based on what I thought you were trying to accomplish. Apparently didn't understand what you were trying to do which is why I asked for a specific example.
 
Last edited:
That's more keystrokes
I think folks get too hung up in numbers of keystrokes, button pushes, and taps. It's all about preference. It's kind of like Jay Leno's line, "how lazy are we?" Or those who say, "don't use English with ATC because it takes too much airtime," and seem to prefer guessing to clarification..

In my case I prefer Activate Leg because it is a function which can be used in multiple situations. A few more seconds of keystrokes doesn't matter to me as much as familiarity with a function usable for departure, enroute, arrivals, and approach intercepts.

as always, YMMV.
 
He’s just a professional pilot, he doesn’t typically relate to our lil GA problems.
Haha. That’s funny. But seriously the last garmin I used regularly was a non waas 430. I did get a little time on the g1000 in a Baron but it had the keypad that made it more like an FMS rather than the inner/outer knob with a few buttons I was more comfortable with using. I’ve forgotten a lot about those boxes.
 
He’s just a professional pilot, he doesn’t typically relate to our lil GA problems.
It's not him. It's me. I wasn't being snarky. I'm still fairly sure that, yes, Gamin and Avidyne can do that. Of course one can create any course to a fix. Heck, you could do that with a VOR too. But without an example approach as a scenario, I'm not sure I'm answering what @Tarheelpilot is asking.
 
It's not him. It's me. I wasn't being snarky. I'm still fairly sure that, yes, Gamin and Avidyne can do that. Of course one can create any course to a fix. Heck, you could do that with a VOR too. But without an example approach as a scenario, I'm not sure I'm answering what @Tarheelpilot is asking.
Ahh. I was not understanding either.

https://acukwik.com/extimages/Procedures/06894R5.PDF

can you do vectors to final to IWWON? Does activating VTF always default to the FAF?
 
Sounds like this VTF thing only loads approach from the FAF through missed approach. Let’s say there are three fixes prior to the FAF on the final approach course. Why not load the full approach and then go to the first fix on the final but set it to the final approach course instead of direct to the fix. Same as vectors to final but keep all the points on the final segment prior to the FAF. Then it doesn’t matter what fix the controller references on the final approach course. They are all still in the box but still get the vector to final. Pretty much every box I’ve ever twiddled or pushed buttons on allows this setup. If the garmins don’t they should add the ability.
The final ‘segment’ begins at the FAF. VTF uses the FAF as the pivot point so to speak. It of course continues to the Missed Approach Point just as any loaded and activated Approach will do, VTF or not. What the Garmin, and I’m pretty sure the others do, is include all Waypoints on the Approach prior to the FAF that are aligned straight in with the Final Approach Course. In other words, an extension of the Final Approach ‘Segment.’ I think and am willing to bet a beer on.
 
Ahh. I was not understanding either.

https://acukwik.com/extimages/Procedures/06894R5.PDF

can you do vectors to final to IWWON? Does activating VTF always default to the FAF?
You don’t have the option the extend the centerline off of a certain fix like we do in an FMS. See the above post. You’d have to load VTF then delete fixes you don’t want to be extended off of. Not a big deal if your fixes are behind you though since you don’t have VNAV to give you any good info.
 
Last edited:
Ahh. I was not understanding either.

https://acukwik.com/extimages/Procedures/06894R5.PDF

can you do vectors to final to IWWON? Does activating VTF always default to the FAF?
The VTF function would draw a straight line for the extended final approach course leading to the FAF, AMOLE. In the latest Garmin models, IWWON remains in the flight plan (POBYI and SYOV would not). But in other models, even IWWON would not be shown in the flight plan, which led to the AIM "no VTF" recommendation.

Here's what VTF activated for that approach looks like in a GTN. AMOLE as the active waypoint but IWWON selectable. In a GNS (or current IFD) IWWON would not be shown at all.
upload_2022-4-30_7-17-6.png

upload_2022-4-30_7-18-42.png
 
Last edited:
I was looking for where the no-VTF-mode recommendation occurs in the AIM. In case anyone else is interested, it's Note 2 under 5-4-6e7.

2. Selection of “Vectors-to-Final” or “Vectors” option for an instrument approach may prevent approach fixes located outside of the FAF from being loaded into an RNAV system. Therefore, the selection of these options is discouraged due to increased workload for pilots to reprogram the navigation system.
 
Well, you can, but not via the VTF function.
I had thought an update had been done to the GNS's that made fixes beyond the FAF and on the Final Approach Course, selectable. But I guess not. Does Avidyne give their logic on why they don't. It seems like such a good idea and I'd think very easy to program in.
 
I had thought an update had been done to the GNS's that made fixes beyond the FAF and on the Final Approach Course, selectable. But I guess not. Does Avidyne give their logic on why they don't. It seems like such a good idea and I'd think very easy to program in.
I haven't seen an explanation. Then again, I haven't seen a reason to look for one. I suppose the underlying assumption is VTF means vectors to intercept the final approach course and not to a fix. Or maybe they bought into the idea that you don't activate VTF until it's a sure thing?

You can ask the question the opposite way too. Why do controllers announce they are giving vectors to final and then don't. I've heard it's much worse with some airline FMS - not as easy to correct as it is in a GA unit.

Fortunately, i don't have a horse in this particular race.
 
IWhy do controllers announce they are giving vectors to final and then don't.

How often do people actually get the words “to final” included by the controller. I can honestly say I’ve only ever gotten clearances like “turn left XXX vectors for the RNAV XXX…”, followed eventually by “X miles from XXFIX, maintain XXXX until established, cleared…”. And more often than not that XXFIX is somewhere between the IAF snd FAF. Maybe just the more complex airspace we are in?
 
How often do people actually get the words “to final” included by the controller. I can honestly say I’ve only ever gotten clearances like “turn left XXX vectors for the RNAV XXX…”, followed eventually by “X miles from XXFIX, maintain XXXX until established, cleared…”. And more often than not that XXFIX is somewhere between the IAF snd FAF.
The very first flight after my checkride with a safety pilot, I got "expect VTF" followed by "x miles from IAF, cross IAF at yyyyMSL, cleared..." not long after I hit the VTF button. @midlifeflyer claims that it's only 6 seconds to reload the approach, but as a newbie IFR pilot it was the longest 6 seconds I ever experienced. :)
 
The very first flight after my checkride with a safety pilot, I got "expect VTF" followed by "x miles from IAF, cross IAF at yyyyMSL, cleared..." not long after I hit the VTF button. @midlifeflyer claims that it's only 6 seconds to reload the approach, but as a newbie IFR pilot it was the longest 6 seconds I ever experienced. :)
The 6-10 seconds is based on knowing what needs to be done. But the real point is that it's just as fast and easy as loading the approach initially. The real challenge is knowing that reloading is the answer and that it's easy. Like a number of real world IFR situations, reloading an approach doesn't seem to be one well covered in training. And even some experienced pilots have trouble with it.

I've mentioned in other posts that I have a short list of tasks pilots don't know which i use for recurrent training. Tasks based on real situations. There was a fatal accident at RDU in 2019. I still remember listening to the pilot "having trouble" with his GPS when Raleigh Approach gave him a different approach than the one he expected. Reloading or changing approaches, became one of them that day.
 
Last edited:
I've mentioned in other posts that I have a short list of tasks pilots don't know which i use for recurrent training. Tasks based on real situations. There was a fatal accident at RDU in 2019. I still remember listening to the pilot "having trouble" with his GPS when Raleigh Approach gave him a different approach than the one he expected. Reloading or changing approaches, became one of them that day.
Single pilot with a decent auto-pilot seems more important than in the days of VOR, Victor Airways and VOR/ILS/LOC IAPs.
 
Single pilot with a decent auto-pilot seems more important than in the days of VOR, Victor Airways and VOR/ILS/LOC IAPs.
I think that's right. The new avionics make the task of flying easier but the setup can be more complicated. I think part of the problem is (a) pilots who don't get transition training and (b) instructors who don't understand the systems either. I've received IPCs where I've surprised my instructor by showing them how some things work. And vice versa.
 
Back
Top