Airline Disengenuousness

3393RP

3393RP

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3393RP
A musician and her $30,000 cello were removed from the return leg of a round trip AA flight because her cello was ostensibly too big for the seat she had purchased for it. The cello apparently grew between the outbound and return flights, because no mention was made of the offending instrument on the outbound leg.

AA's explanation is pretty weak:

“A passenger on flight 2457 from Miami to Chicago was traveling with her cello. Unfortunately, there was a miscommunication about whether the cello she was traveling with met the requirements to fit onboard the particular aircraft she was flying, a Boeing 737.

We rebooked our passenger on a flight the next morning on a larger aircraft, a Boeing 767. We provided her a hotel and meal accommodations for the inconvenience. We apologize for the misunderstanding and customer relations has reached out to her.”

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure the seat width, seat pitch, and aisle width on AA 737s and 767s are identical. If they differ, it's not by more than an inch or two. American needs a better PR Prevaricator.

A person traveling with the musician that stayed on the full flight noted after she and the cello were removed, the two seats were taken by two apparently overbooked passengers.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/...ht-after-buying-seat-for-her-30000-cello.html
 
3393RP said:
A musician and her $30,000 cello were removed from the return leg of a round trip AA flight because her cello was ostensibly too big for the seat she had purchased for it. The cello apparently grew between the outbound and return flights, because no mention was made of the offending instrument on the outbound leg.

AA's explanation is pretty weak:

“A passenger on flight 2457 from Miami to Chicago was traveling with her cello. Unfortunately, there was a miscommunication about whether the cello she was traveling with met the requirements to fit onboard the particular aircraft she was flying, a Boeing 737.

We rebooked our passenger on a flight the next morning on a larger aircraft, a Boeing 767. We provided her a hotel and meal accommodations for the inconvenience. We apologize for the misunderstanding and customer relations has reached out to her.”

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure the seat width, seat pitch, and aisle width on AA 737s and 767s are identical. If they differ, it's not by more than an inch or two. American needs a better PR Prevaricator.

A person traveling with the musician that stayed on the full flight noted after she and the cello were removed, the two seats were taken by two apparently overbooked passengers.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/...ht-after-buying-seat-for-her-30000-cello.html
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Most everyone here says the media doesn’t get aviation stories correct. Why are you buying into this one?
We just don’t know all the true facts yet.
 
The facts surrounding my salient point are clear. That AA issued the quoted statement can't be disputed.

When AA said they accommodated the passenger by placing her and the cello on a "larger aircraft", they misled the public by intimating there was a difference in size between the seating space of a 737 and 767, which I'm almost certain is not the case.

I'm not one to bash the airlines, because many of the alleged incidents of passenger "mistreatment" are nothing but click bait.
 
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3393RP said:
The facts surrounding my salient point are clear. That AA issued the quoted statement can't be disputed.

When AA said they accommodated the passenger by placing her and the cello on a "larger aircraft", they misled the public by intimating their was a difference in size between the seating space of a 737 and 767, which I'm almost certain is not the case.

I'm not one to bash the airlines, because many of the alleged incidents of passenger "mistreatment" are nothing but click bait.
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Correct, but you say you’re not an expert yet speak of authority to discredit the spokesperson saying they will accommodate on a larger aircraft.

You may well be correct, but we really don’t know that.
Perhaps the first flight they took did something they should not have allowed.
 
You seem to be willfully ignoring the obvious point of my claim AA is being disingenuous. I have gathered information which does indeed make me an "expert".

AA Boeing 737-800
Main Cabin: Pitch 31, Width 16.9 - 17.3

AA Boeing 767-300
Main Cabin: Pitch 31-32, Width 17.8

AA's claim they accommodated the unlucky passenger and her cello on a "larger aircraft", which clearly infers larger with regard to space for the instrument, was simply for PR purposes and wasn't factual.

The fact they allowed it to fly outbound on an unspecified but identically sized aircraft and inbound on the 767 which has essentially the same physical space as the 737 exposes the absurdity of their self serving statement.
 
Kritchlow said:
Most everyone here says the media doesn’t get aviation stories correct. Why are you buying into this one?
We just don’t know all the true facts yet.
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Gotta say, on this one we do. The sizes of seats and pitches on AA 73s and 76s are public knowledge.

Standard PR BS to cover for whatever actually went down.

The photo of the Captain tossing the victory sign at the deplaned passenger from the aircraft door, isn’t exactly good PR, either.

Maybe the idiot meant it as a hippie peace sign? LOL.

Either way, celebrating or appearing to in the aircraft door after tossing someone, in the era of cell phone cameras, probably isn’t too bright.

And certainly hints there was something else going on, waaaay outside of company policy.

Which clearly says you can buy your cargo a seat if you want to as long as the cargo will fit.

I’m going with... “Somebody screwed the pooch” for $500, Alex.

‘Cause there wasn’t a size problem for any cello case I’ve ever seen.

But only Captain Victory knows for sure. Hahaha.
 
You have to admit there’s some irony in an airline admitting their seats can’t hold a freaking cello, let alone an adult sized human being, in a press release, though.

LOL LOL LOL.

PR person 1, Passenger Zero... but wait a second...

PR person admitted the seat cant even hold a cello.

Negative 10 points!

:) :) :)
 
Jingjing Hu keeps getting pre-approved credit card applications for "Mr. Cello"!
 
Wife and I have flown to Oshkosh in a M20F and the Arrow with all the camping gear and a cello. I have a hard time buying the AA story. AA probably thought they could kick an inanimate seat purchased object off the flight and seat a live person and there would be no repercussions. Wrong!
 
And, on a trip to Boston to buy a cello, we rode the subway with a cello during rush hour!
 
Seems like the outbound crew and the return crew were not playing from the same sheet of music. At least not note for note.

Of course leave it to one of our high strung 121 pilots to think everything was probably conducted properly.

Then again maybe the media did orchestrate the entire thing.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Seems like the outbound crew and the return crew were not playing from the same sheet of music. At least not note for note.

Of course leave it to one of our high strung 121 pilots to think everything was probably conducted properly.

Then again maybe the media did orchestrate the entire thing.
Click to expand...

Nicely done.
 
The sheet music was on the plane she was kicked off. So, the return crew did have the same music.
 
A1Topgun said:
Wife and I have flown to Oshkosh in a M20F and the Arrow with all the camping gear and a cello. I have a hard time buying the AA story. AA probably thought they could kick an inanimate seat purchased object off the flight and seat a live person and there would be no repercussions. Wrong!
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I can't imagine an airline caring if the money for the seat came from a live person, a cello, or anything else.
 
Not much of a story, seeing how they got her a hotel room and bought her dinner.
 
steingar said:
Not much of a story, seeing how they got her a hotel room and bought her dinner.
Click to expand...
Except they had no valid reason to kick her off the flight in the first place. That's the story.

At least it wasn't United. They would've just tossed the cello off of the jet bridge and broken it. Likely would've tossed her off the bridge also.
 
denverpilot said:
The photo of the Captain tossing the victory sign at the deplaned passenger from the aircraft door, isn’t exactly good PR, either.

Maybe the idiot meant it as a hippie peace sign? LOL.

Either way, celebrating or appearing to in the aircraft door after tossing someone, in the era of cell phone cameras, probably isn’t too bright.
Click to expand...

How do you know that was the Captain and not a male flight attendant? I can’t see any shoulder boards to tell for sure. And how do you know that is a “victory” sign and not some other indication?

And certainly hints there was something else going on, waaaay outside of company policy.
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I agree that it hints at something else. Way outside of company policy is assuming facts not in evidence. Could be, and probably is something unrelated and the media used it to promote the view they want the public to take on the matter.

Believe none of what you heard and only half of what you see.
 
Mark my words: Doug Parker’s next acquisition will be United. It only makes sense....
 
MauleSkinner said:
I can't imagine an airline caring if the money for the seat came from a live person, a cello, or anything else.
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A cello normally won't complain if kicked off. So,as the airline sees it, they can have one passenger kicked off to complain, or two left behind to complain.
 
A1Topgun said:
A cello normally won't complain if kicked off. So,as the airline sees it, they can have one passenger kicked off to complain, or two left behind to complain.
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But since they had to pay for dinner and a hotel (not gonna say it...not gonna say it...), they're money behind.
 
MauleSkinner said:
But since they had to pay for dinner and a hotel (not gonna say it...not gonna say it...), they're money behind.
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They likely would have had to pay for lodging for the 2 standbys rather than one. The cello is cheap.
 
jordane93 said:
I’ve seen cellos fit fine on RJs before. Maybe @kayoh190 knows some more details.
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I haven't heard anything on my end, but I likely won't unless this turns into a huge media deal.

It wouldn't be the first (nor the last) time the airline said one thing and did something else, or otherwise inconsistently applied the rules. That said, I'm reluctant to hang the crew without knowing more of the facts. Nobody *wants* to deny travel to someone - it's a PITA for everyone involved.
 
3393RP said:
A musician and her $30,000 cello were removed from the return leg of a round trip AA flight because her cello was ostensibly too big for the seat she had purchased for it. The cello apparently grew between the outbound and return flights, because no mention was made of the offending instrument on the outbound leg.

AA's explanation is pretty weak:

“A passenger on flight 2457 from Miami to Chicago was traveling with her cello. Unfortunately, there was a miscommunication about whether the cello she was traveling with met the requirements to fit onboard the particular aircraft she was flying, a Boeing 737.

We rebooked our passenger on a flight the next morning on a larger aircraft, a Boeing 767. We provided her a hotel and meal accommodations for the inconvenience. We apologize for the misunderstanding and customer relations has reached out to her.”

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure the seat width, seat pitch, and aisle width on AA 737s and 767s are identical. If they differ, it's not by more than an inch or two. American needs a better PR Prevaricator.

A person traveling with the musician that stayed on the full flight noted after she and the cello were removed, the two seats were taken by two apparently overbooked passengers.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/...ht-after-buying-seat-for-her-30000-cello.html
Click to expand...
I've traveled with a guitar; it wasn't allowed to ride next to me, but had to go in a small compartment near the front of the plane. Perhaps said compartment on a 737 isn't big enough.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I've traveled with a guitar; it wasn't allowed to ride next to me, but had to go in a small compartment near the front of the plane. Perhaps said compartment on a 737 isn't big enough.
Click to expand...

But did you pay for a separate seat for your guitar?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
How do you know that was the Captain and not a male flight attendant? I can’t see any shoulder boards to tell for sure. And how do you know that is a “victory” sign and not some other indication?
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It was a pilot - he's got the red APA badge backer. But to your point, I really doubt it was some 'victory' sign. He was likely signaling 'two' to someone on the jet bridge. I've done it many times.
 
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SkyDog58 said:
Of course leave it to one of our high strung 121 pilots to think everything was probably conducted properly.

Then again maybe the media did orchestrate the entire thing.
Click to expand...

You obviously are making light of the situation, but I am going to comment seriously.

Generally speaking, Captain’s Authority does not start until the door closes. Until that point, Customer Service (the gate agent) is in charge. It is their job to deal with these types of issues. At my place, we are specifically trained to let Customer Service deal with these issues. Not that we can’t offer input into the situation.

The Gate Agent probably had no problem with the cello or it wouldn’t have been allowed to be boarded in the first place. So it was apparently a flight attendant that had the issue. We are not told specifically WHY the flight attendant had an issue. At face value, it would seem they were out of line but we really don’t know what the issue was.

As a Captain, I would have had no issue with the cello as long as it was legal and it did not compromise safety. And I would have advocated for the passenger if there wasn’t a legitimate reason for her removal, but ultimately it is a Customer Service issue until the door closes.

This story is pretty one-sided. We only here the customer’s side. We don’t have the rest of the story.

Oh, and the media will most definitely massage the facts to suit their agenda.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You obviously are making light of the situation, but I am going to comment seriously.

Generally speaking, Captain’s Authority does not start until the door closes. Until that point, Customer Service (the gate agent) is in charge. It is their job to deal with these types of issues. At my place, we are specifically trained to let Customer Service deal with these issues. Not that we can’t offer input into the situation.

The Gate Agent probably had no problem with the cello or it wouldn’t have been allowed to be boarded in the first place. So it was apparently a flight attendant that had the issue. We are not told specifically WHY the flight attendant had an issue. At face value, it would seem they were out of line but we really don’t know what the issue was.

As a Captain, I would have had no issue with the cello as long as it was legal and it did not compromise safety. And I would have advocated for the passenger if there wasn’t a legitimate reason for her removal, but ultimately it is a Customer Service issue until the door closes.

This story is pretty one-sided. We only here the customer’s side. We don’t have the rest of the story.

Oh, and the media will most definitely massage the facts to suit their agenda.
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Thank you Greg.
 
kayoh190 said:
It was a pilot - he's got the red APA badge backer. But to your point, I really doubt it was some 'victory' sign. He was likely signaling 'two' to someone on the jet bridge. I've done it many times.
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Ok. Thought maybe it might be but I wasn’t 100% sure.
 
steingar said:
Not much of a story, seeing how they got her a hotel room and bought her dinner.
Click to expand...

Hotel room and dinner doesn't put me where I paid to be....home.

I've never understood the whole overbooking problem. An airline shouldn't be allowed to sell a seat to more than one person. And someone who buys a ticket shouldn't be allowed to cancel last-minute and say they'll use it another time.

Most of the time I fly commercially it's taking the family on vacation. Probably 1/3 of the time there's an overbooking problem. And several times we've been forced to later flights because of it. The problem is that the time at our vacation spot is shortened by a day (3 days once). Never mind the fact that we're out the cost of the pre-paid hotel...just losing your vacation for no good reason is frustrating.

If I was king for a day that kind of thing would stop.
 
A1Topgun said:
AA probably thought they could kick an inanimate seat purchased object off the flight and seat a live person and there would be no repercussions. Wrong!
Click to expand...

The gate agent didn't have a problem with the cello - they got all the way to their seats. There's another article out there that clearly shows the message the passenger sent to AA, and they mentioned that they were given a seat belt extender by an FA as they boarded the plane, and there were no problems until right before push. This tells me that something (right or wrong) was spotted by an FA while doing their 'seated and stowed' check.
 
steingar said:
Not much of a story, seeing how they got her a hotel room and bought her dinner.
Click to expand...
That’s better treatment than I got from AA on Friday when they cancelled my flight out of PHL.

Told everyone that they used up all the hotel vouchers and we were on our own to find lodging.
 
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Gerhardt said:
Hotel room and dinner doesn't put me where I paid to be....home.

I've never understood the whole overbooking problem. An airline shouldn't be allowed to sell a seat to more than one person. And someone who buys a ticket shouldn't be allowed to cancel last-minute and say they'll use it another time.

Most of the time I fly commercially it's taking the family on vacation. Probably 1/3 of the time there's an overbooking problem. And several times we've been forced to later flights because of it. The problem is that the time at our vacation spot is shortened by a day (3 days once). Never mind the fact that we're out the cost of the pre-paid hotel...just losing your vacation for no good reason is frustrating.

If I was king for a day that kind of thing would stop.
Click to expand...

Airlines are allowed to overbook because passengers will make numerous reservations to cover their agenda and then cancel one or more leaving the airline with empty seats and less revenue. So really it's because of passengers booking a seat and then cancelling it after their plans change. Not just one passenger, but many.
 
kayoh190 said:
The gate agent didn't have a problem with the cello - they got all the way to their seats. There's another article out there that clearly shows the message the passenger sent to AA, and they mentioned that they were given a seat belt extender by an FA as they boarded the plane, and there were no problems until right before push. This tells me that something (right or wrong) was spotted by an FA while doing their 'seated and stowed' check.
Click to expand...
Which leads back to my issue with the Brady Bunch:

You have three distinct employee groups with their own distinct cultures and some (not all) of which still are full of bitterness and toxicity from previous horrible upper management (AMR and East) that they can’t seem to let it go and they take it out on the pax. I saw this first hand on my flight from Madrid. Most of the cabin crew was professional and pleasant. And then there was one nasty battle axe (prior AMR) who treated everyone like crap.

These days, all it takes is that one bad apple to pick a fight with a pax and your airline is going to make the front page of CNN.

Parker needs to figure that out before he tries to add another disgruntled employee group to the mix.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Which leads back to my issue with the Brady Bunch:

You have three distinct employee groups with their own distinct cultures and some (not all) of which still are full of bitterness and toxicity from previous horrible upper management (AMR and East) that they can’t seem to let it go and they take it out on the pax. I saw this first hand on my flight from Madrid. Most of the cabin crew was professional and pleasant. And then there was one nasty battle axe (prior AMR) who treated everyone like crap.

These days, all it takes is that one bad apple to pick a fight with a pax and you airline is going to make the front page of CNN.

Parker needs to figure that out before he tries to add another disgruntled employee group to the mix.
Click to expand...


Not limited to just that airline. They (airlines) all have employees like that.
 
mscard88 said:
Airlines are allowed to overbook because passengers will make numerous reservations to cover their agenda and then cancel one or more leaving the airline with empty seats and less revenue. So really it's because of passengers booking a seat and then cancelling it after their plans change. Not just one passenger, but many.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying. Put me in charge and when someone books a seat...they pay for it and it's theirs...no refunds. No overbooking required and no overbooking allowed.
 
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