My first (and hopefully last) "possible pilot deviation"

Rykymus

Rykymus

Line Up and Wait
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Rykymus
I post this so that others may learn from my stupidity.

Yeah, I f***d up. Pretty embarrassing. My first time at KPAO. I was departing IFR. After run-up I pulled up to the hold short and reported that I was at hold short for rwy 31 ready for departure.I I was told to hold for IFR release, which I did. I watched a light sport do a touch n go, then come back and do another, and then another.

Now I have two planes waiting behind me, the LS doing another TnG lap, and a Mooney inbound. KPAO is a busy little airport. Tower told me to "pull up and hold short on rwy 31". I read back the exact same words. The rwy has an approach apron, but it's pretty short. That light sport was on short final. I was about 10 ft from the hold short line (which is about how far I usually hold short) and started inching forward. I honestly thought he was telling me to "line up and wait" (yeah, I know, he didn't use those words, hence my mistake) I felt like it wasn't a good idea for me to line up and wait, and because of that, I was inching slowly forward, but I crossed the line by at least half my plane length. The tower urgently told the light sport to go around, (as he was about to cross the fence) and I slammed on the brakes. (Well, 'touched' would be a better word, as I wasn't moving very fast at all.

The light sport went around, and the tower had me taxi down the runway and exit at the first taxiway and contact ground, who gave me a number to call for "possible pilot deviation". I opted to wait until I got home, since the winds were expected to become more turbulent in the afternoon. (It was around 1245 PST) I called them when I got home, and they just took my name. I admitted that I misunderstood his instructions, because I was already at the hold short line, but that it was my fault, which, honestly, it was.

The worst part was that my wife was in the plane with me.

Flame me all you want, I deserve it. In retrospect, I should have just asked the tower to clarify, although he was busy giving instructions to the inbound Mooney at the moment. Still my fault though. Seeing as how I didn't think there was enough room for me to be on the approach end of the runway (that runway is only 2400 ft) I just shouldn't have gone there, regardless of what the controller was doing.

Safety is the PILOT's responsibility, not the controllers. And I should have remembered that.

So, what do you think the FAA has in store for me?
 
If he actually said "Hold short on Runway 31," that would involve you going onto the runway. He probably said "Hold short of Runway 31." (NOTAM: "Hold short on" is not actual phraseology. When you call the tower when ready for departure, you will normally only hear [1] cleared for takeoff, [2] hold short of Runway X, or [3] line up and wait. I should have clarified this in the original response.)

Something else that could have been said is "Pull up to and hold short of the [white] runway edge line." No, this is not anywhere in the AIM, but it can be used at certain airports where the actual yellow hold short bars are a significant distance from the runway edge.

As with anything else, and consistent with legal advice from published authors on this topic, there is no requirement for you to call and give your name to the facility. That's as far as I can go now with this statement without being flamed to death, so I'll stop there, and simply ask you report back on how it goes with the FSDO when they call you for an interview.
 
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File a NASA ASRS form. Then contact AOPA, call their legal team and discuss the situation.

The FAA may do anything from a certificate action (suspension, revoked) to a "709 ride", in which the FSDO administers a checkride and decides which, if any, ratings you keep and which you lose.
 
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Filed the ASRS immediately after making the phone call. I gave me name, and admitted that I misunderstood his instructions. My position is that, yes, I made a mistake, but I was still being cautious to maintain safety, and that my attitude is that I need to learn from the experience.

I will post if anything happens
 
Seen this twice live (I was #3 behind the IFR). Exact same as your deal. IFR already holding short gets a repeat instruction with inbounds plus self imposed pressure knowing VFRs are stacking up behind. No option for VFR intersection departures due to runway length. Your brain was hoping for a line up and wait
 
Thanks for sharing. Don't beat yourself up over it, we all make mistakes (some worse than others.)

I remember when I thought I had busted Charlie airspace a few years back. Fortunately it wasn't, but I know the tense feeling you get when you think you did something wrong.

You've got the right attitude, use this experience as something to learn from.
 
I'd think expect training (709) at the worst and counseling at the best. As long as you are private pilot. Commercial might invoke more.

But then I'm just a guy in his living room responding to your post....

As I understand it anytime the tower sez hold short we have to respond hold short and their training may require them to say it multiple times.
 
The language PAO uses is "Pull up and hold short."

It can get stupid busy on Saturdays. For some reason, less so on Sundays. The airport needs a second runway (but it's not likely to ever get it).

The FAA takes runway incursions rather seriously, so I'd expect counseling. But calling a lawyer first can only make it worse. They CAN ask for a 44709 ride. Say what you did here, and cooperate, to minimize.

I doubt you'll ever do it again. The point is to prove that to the San Jose FSDO. A NASA Form can help with that, but it's mostly attitude.

It sucks, but I think it will end reasonably unless you make it into make it adversarial.
 
Yup, that's pretty much what they said. "Pull up and hold short." I misunderstood because I had already been sitting at the hold short line for ten minutes waiting for my IFR release when they said that.

No way I'd ever be adversarial in a case like this. I can be a real ****at, but when I'm wrong I take my lumps and learn from it.
 
Rykymus said:
Yup, that's pretty much what they said. "Pull up and hold short." I misunderstood because I had already been sitting at the hold short line for ten minutes waiting for my IFR release when they said that.

No way I'd ever be adversarial in a case like this. I can be a real ****at, but when I'm wrong I take my lumps and learn from it.
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I'm sorta on the opposite side of this one (in terms of cause of possible deviation) by not moving when told to taxi to parking when I didn't know where the FBO was. Another aircraft got a quick call to stop taxi because I had been instructed to taxi but didn't move. Crap occurs. It's embarrassing. Live and learn.
 
You're PIC and its s deviation, but I can totally understand...No reason for them to tell you to pull up while you were already holding short.
 
Rykymus said:
I post this so that others may learn from my stupidity.

Yeah, I f***d up. Pretty embarrassing. My first time at KPAO. I was departing IFR. After run-up I pulled up to the hold short and reported that I was at hold short for rwy 31 ready for departure.I I was told to hold for IFR release, which I did. I watched a light sport do a touch n go, then come back and do another, and then another.

Now I have two planes waiting behind me, the LS doing another TnG lap, and a Mooney inbound. KPAO is a busy little airport. Tower told me to "pull up and hold short on rwy 31". I read back the exact same words. The rwy has an approach apron, but it's pretty short. That light sport was on short final. I was about 10 ft from the hold short line (which is about how far I usually hold short) and started inching forward. I honestly thought he was telling me to "line up and wait" (yeah, I know, he didn't use those words, hence my mistake) I felt like it wasn't a good idea for me to line up and wait, and because of that, I was inching slowly forward, but I crossed the line by at least half my plane length. The tower urgently told the light sport to go around, (as he was about to cross the fence) and I slammed on the brakes. (Well, 'touched' would be a better word, as I wasn't moving very fast at all.

The light sport went around, and the tower had me taxi down the runway and exit at the first taxiway and contact ground, who gave me a number to call for "possible pilot deviation". I opted to wait until I got home, since the winds were expected to become more turbulent in the afternoon. (It was around 1245 PST) I called them when I got home, and they just took my name. I admitted that I misunderstood his instructions, because I was already at the hold short line, but that it was my fault, which, honestly, it was.

The worst part was that my wife was in the plane with me.

Flame me all you want, I deserve it. In retrospect, I should have just asked the tower to clarify, although he was busy giving instructions to the inbound Mooney at the moment. Still my fault though. Seeing as how I didn't think there was enough room for me to be on the approach end of the runway (that runway is only 2400 ft) I just shouldn't have gone there, regardless of what the controller was doing.

Safety is the PILOT's responsibility, not the controllers. And I should have remembered that.

So, what do you think the FAA has in store for me?
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If the is what the controller told you, it is an improper instruct.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
You're PIC and its s deviation, but I can totally understand...No reason for them to tell you to pull up while you were already holding short.
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Except if you didn't pull right up but were hodling ten feet back on a small ramp. That is another source of possible confusion.


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Clip4 said:
If the is what the controller told you, it is an improper instruct.
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Yeah, I'm sure they'll pull the tapes and listen to what the controller said, and what the OP said, but they shouldn't be saying, "Pull up and hold short ON runway 31".
 
Rykymus said:
I was about 10 ft from the hold short line (which is about how far I usually hold short) and started inching forward. I honestly thought he was telling me to "line up and wait" (yeah, I know, he didn't use those words, hence my mistake) I felt like it wasn't a good idea for me to line up and wait, and because of that, I was inching slowly forward, but I crossed the line by at least half my plane length
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The controllers at PAJN (Juneau, AK) us to use "line up and wait" years ago. I must say I have not heard that instruction given lately. What I do hear when they are trying to fit folks between landing traffic in is "expedite departure or cleared for take off no delay".

They always ask you to repeat the instructions if a hold short instruction was given. I normally stop short of the hold short line in the event I have a problem on run up (fouled plug or rough running engine) and need to return to parking. I try to do my run up before I taxi.

You made a mistake and I'm sure it will never happen again, especially if the wife is in the plane...:)

Waiting for clearance when there are folks behind you for a VFR take off should not be a factor. Leave enough room for someone to go around you if possible, allowing the tower to decide to release them first.

Thanks for the post, I'm sure there will be no repercussions. Live and learn..:)
 
Did you download the LiveATC mp3?
 
Couple of things.

At KPAO, the runup area is part of the movement area. Did the tower or ground instruct you to leave the runup and move to the hold short line? If not, it was a mistake for you to decide to move up to the line without instructions to do so.. Proper procedure at KPAO is to contact tower when the runup is complete, and they will control the sequencing of who gets to leave the runup area. Sometimes there are 3 planes in the runup, and several waiting on Zulu ready to go. They may have not been happy when you decided on your own to pull up to the hold short line, particularly if there were other planes waiting also.

Second, there are usually only three things a tower will tell you when you contact them after runup.

1. Pull up and hold short of runway XX
2. Line up and wait
3. Clear for takeoff. (possibly with an expedite or direction of flight expected after takeoff )

Once you know this, I find myself listening for these. Pull up and hold short ON a runway doesn't really make sense. I believe KPAO has a number of trainee controllers. It's very possible that they misspoke and said ON, Good idea to clarify before moving if what is said doesn't make sense.

I got back into flying after a 23 year hiatus by getting a tailwheel endorsement at KPAO. It can get very busy there. I'm in the trust but verify school. Even when given the runway for takeoff or a line up and wait, I still check to make sure someone's not on short final...

I had a controller clear me for takeoff at KPAO pretty much right after a 172 got into the air. My plane is considerably faster than a 172. I said unable and told him why. Probably a trainee controller used to separating the student pilot traffic in the 172's and Citabrias. If I had taken off when he cleared me, it would have been interesting maintaining a safe spacing. Trust but verify...


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jimhorner said:
Couple of things.

At KPAO, the runup area is part of the movement area. Did the tower or ground instruct you to leave the runup and move to the hold short line? If not, it was a mistake for you to decide to move up to the line without instructions to do so.. Proper procedure at KPAO is to contact tower when the runup is complete, and they will control the sequencing of who gets to leave the runup area. Sometimes there are 3 planes in the runup, and several waiting on Zulu ready to go. They may have not been happy when you decided on your own to pull up to the hold short line, particularly if there were other planes waiting also.

Second, there are usually only three things a tower will tell you when you contact them after runup.

1. Pull up and hold short of runway XX
2. Line up and wait
3. Clear for takeoff. (possibly with an expedite or direction of flight expected after takeoff )

Once you know this, I find myself listening for these. Pull up and hold short ON a runway doesn't really make sense. I believe KPAO has a number of trainee controllers. It's very possible that they misspoke and said ON, Good idea to clarify before moving if what is said doesn't make sense.

I got back into flying after a 23 year hiatus by getting a tailwheel endorsement at KPAO. It can get very busy there. I'm in the trust but verify school. Even when given the runway for takeoff or a line up and wait, I still check to make sure someone's not on short final...

I had a controller clear me for takeoff at KPAO pretty much right after a 172 got into the air. My plane is considerably faster than a 172. I said unable and told him why. Probably a trainee controller used to separating the student pilot traffic in the 172's and Citabrias. If I had taken off when he cleared me, it would have been interesting maintaining a safe spacing. Trust but verify...


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Where does one locate this procedure? If the taxi clearence says cleared to runway xx, am I not really cleared to that runway at that airport?
 
Do the NASA.

We were flying today and I was cleared to land by tower and I was 10 miles out. She was clearing a 182 on a closer in final.

I was also cleared by the same controller to depart runway 18 when a slower airplane had just taken off. I would have made a big mistake by taking off,... I would have made contact or been close to it. I asked for a delay (hence getting the delay I needed) and was told (after delaying long enough by asking for one) that I was not approved for a short delay and to fly runway heading with the caveat she was going to tell the airplane in front of me to make an early turn out. She was behind the events that were happening.

We all make mistakes. Learn from it and move on.
 
Cool to not be a jerk, but maybe don't start confessing guilt on first contact. You might have mis-heard an instruction, as you say; or maybe it was phrased as you remember - a controller can mis-speak, too, and make an honest mistake.
 
Sundancer said:
Cool to not be a jerk, but maybe don't start confessing guilt on first contact. You might have mis-heard an instruction, as you say; or maybe it was phrased as you remember - a controller can mis-speak, too, and make an honest mistake.
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Hi, I'm the schmuck who caused the runway deviation when the light sport plane was landing... Seems like a good way to open it up to me. If they want to correct you later, that's gravy.
 
The FAA may do anything from a certificate action (suspension, revoked)
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You are not going to get revoked over this, likely not a suspension either.
 
I had one altitude deviation near SLC many years ago. I thought they have cleared me to descend but according to them I wans not. Any way called 800 number, filed NASA report etc and was advised to call next day as supervisor was gone for the day. Called next day and was told that they have to proceed with action as there was a traffic conflict. TMLSS they decided that since there was no previous violation and offence was marginal a warning letter was good enough.
 
Clip4 said:
Where does one locate this procedure? If the taxi clearence says cleared to runway xx, am I not really cleared to that runway at that airport?
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You are given taxi instructions to one of the two run up areas, unless you advise ready for immediate takeoff. They happen to be identified by the nearby runway in both cases.

Once inside the movement area, you need further clearance to go elsewhere. This is not at all unusual. The only exceptions I've run into have run up areas directly abutting hold short lines.

You know where the movement areas are by the dashed lines.
 
jimhorner said:
Couple of things.
At KPAO, the runup area is part of the movement area. Did the tower or ground instruct you to leave the runup and move to the hold short line? If not, it was a mistake for you to decide to move up to the line without instructions to do so.. Proper procedure at KPAO is to contact tower when the runup is complete, and they will control the sequencing of who gets to leave the runup area. Sometimes there are 3 planes in the runup, and several waiting on Zulu ready to go. They may have not been happy when you decided on your own to pull up to the hold short line, particularly if there were other planes waiting also.
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I was not aware of that procedure. I do remember that they gave me taxi instructions of "Juliet to Zulu to rwy 31, clear for a 180 in the runup". I just assumed that he meant it was okay for me to turn around and face into the wind. I pulled into the runup and did a 180, then did my runup. At that time, I was the only plane moving on the ground. This would be my first experience where the runup area is in the movement area and not near the approach end of the runway. (There's another lesson.)

To be honest, I don't ever remember discussing movement and non-movement areas during my original PPL training. I only learned about them during my training at my home airport to get my gate key-card.

I didn't exactly fall all over myself taking blame when I called, but I was humble about it, and told him that I misunderstood the intent of his instructions, since I had already been at the hold short line for some time.

I did submit the NASA report immediately after I called the tower. I also signed up for the WINGS thing and completed a few courses. (Some of them are pretty cool, actually.)

I also checked for the Live ATC feed. It was around 1945Z, but it says there is no file available. Figures...the one time I don't have my GoPro running.
 
MAKG1 said:
You are given taxi instructions to one of the two run up areas, unless you advise ready for immediate takeoff. They happen to be identified by the nearby runway in both cases.

Once inside the movement area, you need further clearance to go elsewhere. This is not at all unusual. The only exceptions I've run into have run up areas directly abutting hold short lines.

You know where the movement areas are by the dashed lines.
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If given a taxi clearance to a runup area, yes you are correct, but the OP states he was advised to hold short 31.
 
Clip4 said:
If given a taxi clearance to a runup area, yes you are correct, but the OP states he was advised to hold short 31.
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PAO Tower does occasionally tell you to hold short when they actually mean to hold POSITION, i.e., not go anywhere. I've heard it in several other locations as well, and I believe it's a tactical error. A pilot unaware someone else has been told to hold short as well could misinterpret. It's even worse for IFR departures, as they take a while due to needing to take off under the SFO final (or, through it if you're a fast climber).

But that's not a clearance onto the runway.

The OP was taxiing from the self service fuel pumps, against usual traffic.

I personally don't like doing 180s in the runup if anyone else is around, so I'll ask for M instead.
 
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Clip4 said:
If given a taxi clearance to a runup area, yes you are correct, but the OP states he was advised to hold short 31.
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It's possible, I suppose, but in 256 departures from KPAO in the past 6 years (I just counted; electronic logs are great), I've never been given taxi instructions from the ramp/non-movement area directly to hold short of the runway. Always to the runup. Then contacted tower from the runup and only then given one of the three options: pull up and hold short, line up and wait, or cleared for takeoff.

I will admit that ground doesn't always make it clear that they want you to stop in the runup area. It's local knowledge, but certainly not necessarily obvious to someone unfamiliar with the airport.

I'm wondering if the tower gave the OP the hold short instruction even though he was already holding short as a not so subtle reminder that he should have waited for that instruction prior to leaving the runup area.

At my Class Charlie home drome of KSJC, when I get taxi clearance to the runup, ground always instructs me to advise them when runup is complete for further taxi instructions. I wouldn't think of just leaving one point in a movement area for another without instructions to do so.


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jimhorner said:
At my Class Charlie home drome of KSJC, when I get taxi clearance to the runup, ground always instructs me to advise them when runup is complete for further taxi instructions. I wouldn't think of just leaving one point in a movement area for another without instructions to do so.
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I'm far from being a pilot, but couldn't a guy kinda get the lay of the land (so to speak) by listening to ground for a few minutes prior to any movement, especially when at an unfamiliar airfield? I would think if the airport is that active, that there would be a cadence to how the ground operations are conducted. But, hey WTF do I know? :dunno:
 
BTW, if the OP plans to be a somewhat regular at KPAO, this web page has some pretty good info about the procedures, It may be somewhat dated, but it helped me out.

http://www.dr-amy.com/palo-alto-airport.html

Here's a picture of the area under discussion. I've marked the 31 runup area. Planes are expected to taxi to one of the three t-bars in the runup area for the runup and then contact tower when the runup is complete. Planes doing pattern work with taxi back are expected to stop at the dashed line on Zulu to await further instructions from the tower. If there are already three planes in the runup area, the expectation is to wait outside until one of the three t-bars is open. It can get very busy on a nice day with lots of students in the pattern and lots of people waiting to go fly.

97ce8e5449bc5347aba38665cb9da9ac.png



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azblackbird said:
I'm far from being a pilot, but couldn't a guy kinda get the lay of the land (so to speak) by listening to ground for a few minutes prior to any movement, especially when at an unfamiliar airfield? I would think if the airport is that active, that there would be a cadence to how the ground operations are conducted. But, hey WTF do I know? :dunno:
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There should be instructions on the ATIS, since it's not typical. SMO has those instructions, and they reinforce it on ground when you ask to taxi to the runway. They'll clear you to the RUN UP (they add emphasis) and advise you to contact them FROM the run up when run up is complete.
 
KPAO ground usually instructs, "Taxi runway 31 via terminal/hangar side" without specifically asking pilots to stop at the runup area. I can see how someone unfamiliar with the airport can just pull up and hold short without being instructed to do so.


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jimhorner said:
BTW, if the OP plans to be a somewhat regular at KPAO, this web page has some pretty good info about the procedures, It may be somewhat dated, but it helped me out.

http://www.dr-amy.com/palo-alto-airport.html

Here's a picture of the area under discussion. I've marked the 31 runup area. Planes are expected to taxi to one of the three t-bars in the runup area for the runup and then contact tower when the runup is complete. Planes doing pattern work with taxi back are expected to stop at the dashed line on Zulu to await further instructions from the tower. If there are already three planes in the runup area, the expectation is to wait outside until one of the three t-bars is open. It can get very busy on a nice day with lots of students in the pattern and lots of people waiting to go fly.

97ce8e5449bc5347aba38665cb9da9ac.png



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I'm based out of KPAO and have around 400 landings there and I remember the run-up being in the movement area...but that picture seems to indicate otherwise. The solid/dash line is clearly around Zulu, not the run-up. Did it change after the repave? I do definitely remember having to be given taxi clearance when I taxied through the run-up backwards for whatever reason.

EDIT: Just looked at the Google sat photo...it's prior to the repave and the run-up is movement. It appears it has been changed! @jimhorner , where did you get the later sat photo?
 
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arnoha said:
EDIT: Just looked at the Google sat photo...it's prior to the repave and the run-up is movement. It appears it has been changed! @jimhorner , where did you get the later sat photo?
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This photo came from Google maps.




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If you look in the FAA runway incursion data base, you find that 100% of the runway incursions listed happened at towered airports.

Now, the O.P. didn't pull out on the runway in front of someone who was landing and there was no potential for an accident. All that happened was that some magic line painted on the ground was touched. But, of course, the FAA feels a need to "do something" about failures to perfectly follow the rules made up by some bureaucrat that may or may not actually have actually flown an airplane - even if there was no issue with safety.

Ever play "Simon says" as a kid?
 
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