- Joined
- May 29, 2014
- Messages
- 4,754
- Display Name
- Kayoh@190
I'm not sure that citizen5000 is aware that non-towered airports exist. Based on how he posts, I get the impression that his experience all falls within the confines of the Cirrus website.
My first (and hopefully last) "possible pilot deviation"
- Thread starter Rykymus
- Start date
Velocity173
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 16,369
- Display Name
- Velocity173
Yeah, he could've used a simple "hold short." It sounds like they get taxi clearance specifically to the run up area at PAO and not the runway though.
gsengle
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- May 9, 2016
- Messages
- 2,100
- Display Name
- Gsengle
Sound like he wasn't pulled up to the hold short line (left too much room ahead) so they wanted him to move up to make room behind him.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Velocity173
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 16,369
- Display Name
- Velocity173
It's actually called an Operational Error. They can't call it a deviation because that is a whole other situation (no sep lost).
Last edited:
What I hear is "hold position" if they want you to stay where you are and "pull up and hold short" if they want you to move a little bit and then stop.
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
Based on the FAA page, I'd call this a B/C event. There was no chance of collision, as I was moving slowly and was well aware of the position of the landing aircraft. But from the tower's POV (which is about 45 degrees behind my left side) I looked close enough that he felt he needed to issue a go around to the landing aircraft. I surely do not disagree with his actions. Better safe than sorry.
No way am I blaming anyone but myself. The fact that he told me to pull up and hold short at a line I had already been holding short at is what sparked the confusion in my mind, but that's not an excuse. I know what "hold short" means, and I know the correct phraseology for what I mistakenly thought he meant is actually "line up and wait." I've been asked to do just that several times at some Bravos and Charlies.
I spent a couple hours with my CFI today, reviewing the incident, as well as reviewing runway incursion avoidance, towered airport operations, and anything else we could think of, in an effort to turn this event into a positive learning experience. We were able to access Live ATC recordings of my clearance, my taxi clearance, me reporting at the hold short ready for departure, the tower responding, and then the incident itself. (If interested, it's 1900-1930Z block for ground, and for the initial report of being at hold short with tower, and about 5:25 into the 1930-2000Z block for tower for the incident.) Tail number was 9294Q. We also viewed several videos from other pilots, the most recent being 2 days ago, looking to see if there was any signage in place that would have warned me to stay in the runup area until cleared to move up to the hold short line. We clearly saw no signage.
For everyone's benefit, (and argument) the following has been verified via the audio tapes:
1. My taxi clearance was "Runway 31, taxi via Juliet Zulu, clear for a 180 in the runup." To me, that was a clearance all the way to the runway hold short line, not just a clearance to the runup area.
2. After my runup, I pulled up to (about 10ft short of) the hold short line for Rwy 31, and reported that I was holding short at rwy 31 and ready for departure. Tower acknowledged and told me to hold for IFR release, which I acknowledged.
3. About 10 minutes later, I am told to "Pull up and hold short runway 31."
To be honest, I'm almost glad this happened. From this thread alone I am learning a ton! More than anything else, it's opened my eyes to the fact that airports can have vastly different ways of doing things, and sometimes, those "different" ways are not published. Here are a few of my take-aways from the incident:
1. If you have any doubt as to what the controller wants you to do...ask. Doesn't matter if they're busy. They're going to get a lot busier if you screw up.
2. If it doesn't feel safe, don't do it. Controllers don't have the same perspective as you, and they don't know your capabilities and comfort level.
3. When landing at/departing from a field that you are unfamiliar with, be extra careful to be sure you understand what you are supposed to do. (See #1) This becomes even more important when you add in such things as high-traffic volume, busy overlying airspace, marginal VFR, and departing on an IFR clearance.
4. "Hold short" only means one thing...ever. "Do not cross that line"
The thing that bothers me most is that I can honestly say that I received no training as to the requirement to of getting permission to reenter the non-movement area in this situation, and that the terms "movement" and "non-movement" did not come up until I had to take a class to get my security pass at my home airport.
Thanks to everyone for the helpful info.
No way am I blaming anyone but myself. The fact that he told me to pull up and hold short at a line I had already been holding short at is what sparked the confusion in my mind, but that's not an excuse. I know what "hold short" means, and I know the correct phraseology for what I mistakenly thought he meant is actually "line up and wait." I've been asked to do just that several times at some Bravos and Charlies.
I spent a couple hours with my CFI today, reviewing the incident, as well as reviewing runway incursion avoidance, towered airport operations, and anything else we could think of, in an effort to turn this event into a positive learning experience. We were able to access Live ATC recordings of my clearance, my taxi clearance, me reporting at the hold short ready for departure, the tower responding, and then the incident itself. (If interested, it's 1900-1930Z block for ground, and for the initial report of being at hold short with tower, and about 5:25 into the 1930-2000Z block for tower for the incident.) Tail number was 9294Q. We also viewed several videos from other pilots, the most recent being 2 days ago, looking to see if there was any signage in place that would have warned me to stay in the runup area until cleared to move up to the hold short line. We clearly saw no signage.
For everyone's benefit, (and argument) the following has been verified via the audio tapes:
1. My taxi clearance was "Runway 31, taxi via Juliet Zulu, clear for a 180 in the runup." To me, that was a clearance all the way to the runway hold short line, not just a clearance to the runup area.
2. After my runup, I pulled up to (about 10ft short of) the hold short line for Rwy 31, and reported that I was holding short at rwy 31 and ready for departure. Tower acknowledged and told me to hold for IFR release, which I acknowledged.
3. About 10 minutes later, I am told to "Pull up and hold short runway 31."
To be honest, I'm almost glad this happened. From this thread alone I am learning a ton! More than anything else, it's opened my eyes to the fact that airports can have vastly different ways of doing things, and sometimes, those "different" ways are not published. Here are a few of my take-aways from the incident:
1. If you have any doubt as to what the controller wants you to do...ask. Doesn't matter if they're busy. They're going to get a lot busier if you screw up.
2. If it doesn't feel safe, don't do it. Controllers don't have the same perspective as you, and they don't know your capabilities and comfort level.
3. When landing at/departing from a field that you are unfamiliar with, be extra careful to be sure you understand what you are supposed to do. (See #1) This becomes even more important when you add in such things as high-traffic volume, busy overlying airspace, marginal VFR, and departing on an IFR clearance.
4. "Hold short" only means one thing...ever. "Do not cross that line"
The thing that bothers me most is that I can honestly say that I received no training as to the requirement to of getting permission to reenter the non-movement area in this situation, and that the terms "movement" and "non-movement" did not come up until I had to take a class to get my security pass at my home airport.
Thanks to everyone for the helpful info.
Bonchie
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,504
- Display Name
- Bonchie
Yeah, that's false. Warbirds do formation takeoffs all the time at non-towered fields. And that's just one example.
iflyvfr
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2013
- Messages
- 1,816
- Location
- Columbus, OH
- Display Name
- Greg
- Home Airfield
- KTZR - Bolton Field
Again thanks for sharing Rykymus. It's great to LEARN from an incident when the OP is here and alive to tell us exactly what happened. Unlike so many 'smoking holes' type accidents where we won't ever have the benefit of the PIC's POV.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
- MAKG
- Home Airfield
- KPAO and KRHV
Just FYI, requiring additional taxi clearance to leave the run up is not rare. Some other local examples are KSQL (30, terminal side), KFAT (all three run ups, terminal side), and KMRY (28L). The last one is really important because the tower has a blind spot there.
This is the default. Configurations like KSAC (20) where you can pull up to the hold short line while still in the run up area, are the exceptions.
KPAO pavement markings include a dashed line ALL the way around the run up area. That means you need clearance to leave it in any direction. KSQL isn't so obvious, but if you blow by the run up, you'll just get told you screwed up, not a PD.
This is the default. Configurations like KSAC (20) where you can pull up to the hold short line while still in the run up area, are the exceptions.
KPAO pavement markings include a dashed line ALL the way around the run up area. That means you need clearance to leave it in any direction. KSQL isn't so obvious, but if you blow by the run up, you'll just get told you screwed up, not a PD.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
At busy airports (ORD included) back when I was a tower controller, I used similar phrases as "taxi up to and hold short", "get right up to the hold short line plan after the next arrival", etc. when an aircraft is holding well short of the line. The reason being, as pointed out already, that you save time getting out in a tight gap when those couple of seconds could matter. With that said, I have no idea if it was warranted here. You'd have to see exactly where the OP was holding at in reference to the line and see where/what traffic the tower controller was dealing with at the time.
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
Actually, KMRY doesn't require permission to leave the run up area, as it is all part of the non-movement. I flew in and out of there several times a month, and every taxi clearance I have ever gotten was to the runway hold-short line, not the run up area.
However, you are certainly correct that many other airports do, which is something that I learned from my review with my CFI today. Many of these apparently have signs warning you not to move out of the run up area without clearance. This event also helped my training FBO identify a weak-spot in their teaching, since it is a non-towered airport and has no "movement/non-movement areas."
While I'm sure you are correct about the dashed yellow line meaning you are not allowed in/out without clearance, I'm having trouble finding a reference for that rule anywhere. Maybe you can point me to the correct place? I do not like not knowing rules I 'should' know.
I'm actually really glad I'm clearing this discrepancy in my knowledge now, before I set off for the east coast in the fall.
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
I'm honestly wondering if the tower controller forgot that I was already at the hold short line, and was assuming that I was still in the run up. (ie: he didn't look) Since that would be the norm, and it might have been a different ground controller that cleared me to the hold short originally, there could have been some confusion there. "Hold position" would have made more sense, if he was intending for me to be ready to take off as soon as the inbound traffic was clear.
Understanding how controllers might make mistakes helps me to identify when they just might be doing so in the future. We're all human, after all.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
Anything is possible. I'm kind of a smart a$$ at times and if I felt I was already close to the line then I would move up as close as possible and ask, "okay tower, I taxied the half a foot and I'm still holding short".
There's still a chance the controller was just trying to prep you for a tight (at least in their mind at the time) gap.
ircphoenix
En-Route
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2016
- Messages
- 2,531
- Location
- Redondo Beach, CA
- Display Name
- ircphoenix
- Home Airfield
- KTOA
KMRY's runup is within the movement area... but it's just a single dashed line. Not a dash/solid. So you can enter and exit it at your own discretion.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
- MAKG
- Home Airfield
- KPAO and KRHV
The pavement markings don't agree.
However, it's out of sight from Tower, so they may be assuming you never left the movement area.
Clark1961
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 17,737
- Display Name
- Display name:
Well he did say that it would be okay if directed to do so by ATC. Where he is wrong is when he says it is wrong for two aircraft to be on the same runway at the same time at a pilot controlled field.
citizen5000
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2016
- Messages
- 855
- Display Name
- citizen5000
OshKosh is under ATC control. As I said earlier two planes can be on the same runway under ATC direction (LAHSO, line up and wait). Non towered requires even more vigilance and even more anticipation and safety consideration (self management with incursions and separation in the air and on the ground). Maybe some think just because there is no controller it is okay to take chances ATC would never allow? Odd.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I landed today on a runway that had another aircraft on it. I did not have ATC permission. If you PM me, I'll give you the tail number if you promise to call FSDO and record the call. What reg will you tell them I violated?
I have never had to get a clearance from a controller to leave the run-up area... I didn't know that was even a thing until now!!
The only time I have had to get a clearance to go from the run-up block to the runway, the ground controller specifically stated "Taxi to Runway 32 run-up block via xxxx". We were NOT cleared to taxi to the runway like you were...
1. KSQL - Is the run-up area inside the double dashed lines? Why would you need a clearance to taxi from there back onto the taxiway to the runway?
2. KFAT - Starting with the run-up area furthest west (runway 11R), I see the "enhanced centerline" , then there is a double dashed yellow line indicating the edge of the taxiway, and then there is a Black and Yellow dashed line across the block (I could not find this marking in the AIM).
1. What area do you use for the run-up? The area west of the black and yellow dashed line or the area between the black and yellow line and the edge of the taxiway?
2. Why would they extend the black and yellow dashed line beyond the runway hold short line?
3. If you are between the taxiway edge markings and black and yellow dashed line and did your run up there, would you have to ask ground for clearance to the hold short line? How about west of the black and yellow dashed line? And why?
4. If its not busy, what's wrong with doing the run-up holding short of the runway on the taxiway? Run-Ups don't take THAT long...
3. KMRY - The image I see on google is a double dashed yellow line marking the edge of the taxiway, and then a single yellow dashed line. Looks very similar to FAT. Same questions as above
1. Is the run-up between the double dashed and single dashed line, or south of the single dashed line?
2. If you are south of the double yellow, but north of the single yellow dash line, do you still need to get a clearance?
3. Non-movement is defined in AIM 2-3-18 as a single dashed yellow and single solid yellow line 6 inches apart. I don't see that at MYR or FAT
Seems like every towered airport I've been to, you can pull up to the hold short line while still in the run up area. Maybe it's not so common on the west coast?
1. From what I see, PAO has a single dashed line only on the south part of the run-up. The north part has a single dash and single solid yellow line indicating the boundary between a non-movement area and the taxiway. This I can understand needing a clearance but ONLY because of the solid line. I didn't see that on the google map imagery of FAT, SQL, or MRY.
2. If you taxi past the run-up you'll get told you screwed up? What if you don't need a run-up or you want to do it holding short of the runway? (say it's not busy..)
Not trying to be critical, I am trying to learn like others. I don't see many of those markings at the towered fields I fly to on the east coast.
Clark1961
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 17,737
- Display Name
- Display name:
To your discredit no one suggested taking chances that ATC would not allow. The crow is yours here. I've heard that pepper helps.
ircphoenix
En-Route
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2016
- Messages
- 2,531
- Location
- Redondo Beach, CA
- Display Name
- ircphoenix
- Home Airfield
- KTOA
KSMO is the only airport in California that I've been to that considers the runup to be it's own little area where you taxi to before being approved to taxi to the hold short. Appparently KPAO is the same.
At KMRY, the large double dashed lines are just taxiway edge markings. The runup IIRC is beyond the second set of dashed lines.
Seems like KPAO has some local procedures that you're expected to know, instead of being specifically instructed about.
If you request to taxi to the runway, and they clear you to taxi to the runway with no other instructions, then they can't fang you for skipping the runup. If you do your runup holding short of the runway, I hate you.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
- MAKG
- Home Airfield
- KPAO and KRHV
For SQL, when headed out to 30, there is significant distance remaining to taxi from the run up. There may very well be a PC12 behind you, or some other aircraft that doesn't need a run up. If you don't need one, you say you're ready for immediate takeoff.
For FAT, you can get to the 11R hold short line without crossing back in, but not any of the other three. The two intersection takeoff runup areas in particular require crossing a parallel taxiway to get to the hold short lines. FAT has airliners, so I always use the further dashed lines there. Too much risk of jet blast or outboard engine nacelles otherwise.
MRY is pretty sleepy, but both of the other airports can see insane levels of traffic.
Keep in mind that, except for FAT, you usually get this second clearance from Tower when you get told to pull up and hold short. In a nutshell, don't leave the run up until told to. FAT really does expect you to contact Ground a second time. Even at less crazy airports (like Oakland), you can foul up takeoff sequence if you just pop up to the hold line. Sequence is NOT always first come, first served, especially if airliners are involved.
Last edited:
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
I have been taught that if given a clearance to the runway, I am clear to taxi all the way up to the hold short line of that runway, and stopping for a few minutes in a run-up area along the way does not require me to get an additional clearance to continue to the point I have already been cleared to. (The runway's hold short line.) If there is a rule in the FARs or the AIM, I am not aware of it, and would greatly appreciate a reference to it for my own education.
Also, I have never been taught that if given a clearance to the runway hold short, that you need an additional clearance if you cross back into the movement area to complete your run up. (However, that does make sense.)
If, say, that rule does not exist in the FARs/AIM, then KPAO should have that special procedure published somewhere, like in the Chart Supplement. (A/FD)
Also, I have never been taught that if given a clearance to the runway hold short, that you need an additional clearance if you cross back into the movement area to complete your run up. (However, that does make sense.)
If, say, that rule does not exist in the FARs/AIM, then KPAO should have that special procedure published somewhere, like in the Chart Supplement. (A/FD)
Surprised the almighty EFB did not help prevent this.
Must be a Cirrus driver regulation he is trying to promulgate.
Must be a Cirrus driver regulation he is trying to promulgate.
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 8,190
- Location
- North Carolina once again.
- Display Name
- Tarheelpilot
- Home Airfield
- Not sure anymore
So how do aircraft operating in formation land at uncontrolled fields without being in violation?
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 8,190
- Location
- North Carolina once again.
- Display Name
- Tarheelpilot
- Home Airfield
- Not sure anymore
I want the turboprop.I'll bet these guys have the answer...
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
You and me both.
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2012
- Messages
- 1,531
- Location
- Orange County, CA
- Display Name
- eetrojan
- Home Airfield
- KSNA
The pilot/controller glossary in the AIM says the "movement area" requires approval to enter at a towered airport, and that the "non-movement area" is not under the control of air traffic.
At SMO, after entering the movement area and taxiing toward the runup, you must leave the movement area to enter the runup. It's easy to miss that fact.
However, even though the run up is in the non-movement area such that you need permission to cross the the solid-dashed line pair to get to the hold-short line, tower still considers the runup area as fully under their control.
In other words, at least in my experience, make sure you pull up to and are aligned with the painted T. No angling allowed to watch inbound traffic, even if you're by yourself.
Last edited:
jimhorner
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2012
- Messages
- 949
- Location
- Santa Clara, California
- Display Name
- Jim Horner
- Home Airfield
- KSJC
I just reread your post, and I wanted to comment about this bit. If I correctly understand what you wrote, you pulled up to the hold short line to wait for your IFR release, and you had two planes (at least, there may have been others which arrived in the runup area after you left it) in the runup area behind you. Getting an IFR release can sometimes take a bit of time; it requires coordination with departure control who need to find a spot in the overall area traffic to fit you in. I've had to wait 10 minutes or more sometimes at KPAO. By pulling up to the hold short line on your own without the release, you were blocking access to the runway for any VFR planes waiting in the runup. That's one reason tower wants you to stay on one of the T-bars in the runup; you won't block other's access to the runway.
Even at KSJC, when ground instructs me to taxi from the Whiskey-Delta runup area to 30L at Bravo via Whiskey, I make sure to stay well to the right on Bravo at the hold short line if I'm IFR while waiting for release. That way other planes can pass me and get access to the runway while I'm waiting for release. There's not room to allow others to pass if holding short at KPAO, hence the need to stay in the runup area.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2007
- Messages
- 23,096
- Location
- PUDBY
- Display Name
- Richard Palm
- Home Airfield
- Palo Alto (SFO area)
In 26 years of flying out of PAO, I have NEVER received an instruction to taxi specifically to the runup area. The fact that we locals all do that is because that's what our instructors taught us to do. If there is anything official in print about the procedure, I've never seen it. I think it needs to be put in print somewhere (probably in the A/FD remarks).
jimhorner
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2012
- Messages
- 949
- Location
- Santa Clara, California
- Display Name
- Jim Horner
- Home Airfield
- KSJC
I also can't think of any time that the runup area was specificly mentioned as the destination in the taxi instructions. I also do it that way because that's how I was taught when I got back into flying with a tailwheel cert at KPAO.
I have had them tell me which T-bar to take in the runup area, though, so I guess that somewhat counts. I've received instructions like this from the fuel island: "Taxi straight ahead on Golf to runway 31, take the far right T-bar, expect left downwind, code on request to San Jose." Even as a non-local, pretty sure I would not interpret that as giving me free access to the hold short line of 31 whenever I finished my runup. I've also had ground tell me to hold outside the runup area when it's full and the sequence me in based on who got there first since it can be entered (31 runup area that is) from 2 directions.
Instead of the A/FD (or maybe in addition to), however, I wonder why ground can't change their instruction to say something like: "Taxi to 31 runup area via ... " Seems that would make it unambiguous and clear.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited:
citizen5000
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2016
- Messages
- 855
- Display Name
- citizen5000
Pilot adjusting headset hits another plane on the ground https://generalaviationnews.com/201...=email&utm_term=0_62525a9780-9aac57b78b-95105
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
Actually, when I pulled up to the hold short line (and my taxi clearance was to that line) there were no other planes rolling on the ground. It was while I was at the hold short that two more planes taxi from parking to the run up area.
However, your point is well taken. I'm an IFR newb, having only cert'd last November, and this is the first time that I've departed an airport like KPAO. Every IFR flight I've had prior has been from larger airports, (Mostly KSCK and KMRY) that are not as busy, and are definitely not under a busy bravo approach. Thus, I've never had to wait more than a few minutes for my release. To be honest, I was not aware that releases can take that long to receive. These considerations are some of the things that were explained to me by my instructor yesterday when I met with him to review the incident and learn from it.
I honestly think that this incident is an opportunity for KPAO to learn something as well. The airport is unique in several ways. The shape, the location in relation to other airports (and the bravo approach), the short runway WITH a tower, and the fact that there is actually some ground control in the parking area.They should either publish the requirement to stage in the run up area, or their taxi clearances should be to the run up, not the runway. (Or both.) It is a public airport, so such operational requirements should include those who were not trained at that airport.
It would also help if controllers didn't instruct a plane that was AT the hold short to PULL UP and hold short. "Hold position, you're next" might have been more appropriate. But again, the error of pulling across that line is on me.
gsengle
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- May 9, 2016
- Messages
- 2,100
- Display Name
- Gsengle
But didn't you say you were holding like ten feet back from the line? Isn't it possible they wanted your nose up to the line for spacing behind you? That's a reason they'd ask you to move up and hold short.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lindberg
Final Approach
Was the unoccupied aircraft on the runway?
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,464
- Display Name
- Everskyward
I agree that when they tell you to taxi to a runway you could technically taxi all the way to the hold short line. If they want you to stop in the runup area they should say so. They shouldn't rely on transients to have local knowledge unless it's published somewhere, hopefully on ATIS. On the other hand, it's courteous not to block the entrance to the runway, especially if you are IFR and waiting for a release. It can sometimes take a long time to get a release from a satellite airport under a Class B. In your case ground probably should have told you to taxi to the runup area to await your release. Maybe they thought you were there, which would explain why they told you to "pull up". They probably had your release at that point.
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
That ten feet is a guess. I was probably closer than that. I always stop with the line in sight beyond my prop. I'd have to go out to the plane and measure that visual cue distance to be sure. But there was no one trying to pass behind me at the time. I honestly think they gave the instruction out of habit, forgetting that I had already reported being at the hold short. Mistakes happen. One of the things I'm taking away from this is that if someone tells you to do something you've already done, tell them you've already done so in order to obtain greater clarity for both parties.
Totally agree with you on this. And this is one of the things that was reviewed with my instructor yesterday. I'm definitely not the type to be rude and block other's access. So in this way, this event has been a good learning tool for me. I'm just glad that I was watching that inbound plane and rolled forward slowly enough to maintain separation, otherwise this incident could have been catastrophic. And this is the whole reason that I posted this thread, so that I, and others, could learn from it.