GA "needs"

[timwinters]

How much are rental costs driven by maintenance/inspections vs operating expenses or insurance? How receptive are flight schools to planes that have less proven history but lower operating costs?

Maintenance costs, including engine & avionics reserves, comprise about 20% to 25% of the cost of my flying.

Newer equipment. You're not going to attract new pilots with aircraft that are older than they are.

I don't think this matters especially considering there's not a lot of difference between a new 182 and a 50 year-old model. In most ways the 50 year-old version is better actually.

In my case, I've always loved flying and flight but waited until I was 42 to buy a plane and learn how to fly.

Why?

Cost was part of the reason but the time commitment was a far greater factor. My 20s and 30s were spent (wasted?) working my ass off building a career. I knew enough about aviation to know how much of a time commitment it is to remain safe and proficient; and how those who take it lightly are likely those who don't survive.

So, I waited until I was less driven in my career and the kid was out of the house. And when I dove in, I dove in deep.

Most driven 20-somethings have no business getting into aviation unless they have no other hobbies outside of their profession. It takes way too much time to stay safe; it's not like having a jet ski in the garage that you only take out twice a month for four months out if the year.

 

[ircphoenix]

My PPL was 43 hours at $150/hr for the plane and $60/hr for the instructor.

The DPE was 600 bucks.

The affordable aircraft nowadays are not aircraft that are equipped with equipment that is equivalent to what 'affordable' aircraft 30 years ago were.

Pricing of aircraft maintenance and upgrades is prohibitively expensive. I have a cell phone that can do everything a 530 can do. I have an Android tablet that can do everything a 530 can do. The 530 is a 15000 upgrade from scratch. Oh, you already have a 530? Goal posts have moved. Now you need a W at the end. That W is going to cost you $3,000 installed. Oh, ADS-B out? There's another 3 AMU. Oh, you want to replace your old vacuum powered 1960's technology AI with an electrically powered one that has solid state sensors? $2200... but HA! Experimental only. But we rushed through an STC for a new Dynon that has already been in use by 'experimental' planes... and somehow the press release was 3 months ago and we still haven't given you any information... which suggests that it'll be prohibitively expensive as well.

Oh. You want a digital engine monitor? Okay. That'll be 2500 bucks. OH WAIT. You have a CERTIFIED plane? Sorry. The EXACT SAME MONITOR that is CERTIFIED is $5,800 bucks. Literally more than double.

And that's just the FAA. The pilot cadre of old white guys (I'm a 31 year old mixed breed)... "Oh. You want NEW stuff? You want FANCY stuff? You're complaining about PRICE? Well let me compare my circumstances 40 years ago to what is going on now, and then talk about how entitled you are, while deliberately ignoring inflation and how my income 40 years ago had more purchasing power than you have now at this point in your aviation career. Let me ignore the fact that you're flying the same model year plane in 2016 that I was flying in 1976, because I forget that the plane I'm irritated about you denigrating was actually pretty decent for my era. You're asking for ADVICE? Well why don't we just plan your entire flight for you, you self righteous noob?! Learn to be a pilot. Back in my day we had to fly uphill in the snow both ways..."

It's a wonder people get turned off by GA nowadays....

 

[hockeyrcks9901]

As a young guy by most pilot standards (I'm 29), the biggest obstacle by FAR is cost. Nothing else.

When it costs anywhere from $125-$300 an hour to learn to fly, only lottery winners and upper middle class can afford it. The guy above me hit it right on the head, why is my cell phone $600 but a system that doesn't do a quarter as much $20,000.

Time is a non issue, old vs new planes are a non issue, etc. I'd someone is interested in flying says "hey, I'd like to learn to fly, wonder how much that will cost?" And they do a quick internet search and find out it's roughly $10,000 they immediate move on to something else.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Correct but like @Fearless Tower said, they'll just find a CFI friend to pencil whip it in.

Are MORE regulations will fix this? Rules don't deter people who lack integrity.

 

[James331]

Are MORE regulations will fix this? Rules don't deter people who lack integrity.

BOOM

...The pilot cadre of old white guys (I'm a 31 year old mixed breed)...

What the hell does race have to do with this discussion?

As an CFI/ATP, with lots of other pilot friends, from sport pilots to ATPs, no one cares about your race dude.

Maybe color is important to you, but from what I've seen in my time flying it's the substance of the person, and how they handle their aircraft that matters, gravity and physics also don't give two chits about your "mixed breeding".

The only time I've heard discrimination brought up in my time in aviation, was from a female pilot.

She couldn't wrap her head around the fact that she was rather nasty to people and not a very good pilot, of course she said it was because "we had a problem with women" when in all actuality what we had a problem with was her excess attitude and lacking airmanship, she also tended to forget about the other woman pilot who was doing just fine with everything and everyone.

 

[James331]

How so? They could have needed training for the past year but got lucky.
More training is good.

Got lucky?

I'm not religious and I don't believe in luck, you pass a ride, you pass a ride.

And more regulation is bad, especially in this industry, regulation and personal responsibility are not the same and can't replace each other. As has been said and witnessed a million times, you're never going to rid yourself of the folks who just do the bare mins and suck, and making the good folks jump through more hoops hurts more than it helps.

 

[KFD]

The guy above me hit it right on the head, why is my cell phone $600 but a system that doesn't do a quarter as much $20,000.

The R&D and product development on that cell phone probably cost a whole lot more, but when you sell tens of millions of them it is easy recover the costs and still make money. If they were selling tens of millions of those avionics units the price would go down.

 

[RyanB]

Diversity and youth. At most of the aviation events you see a bunch of old white guys. I think we can do better.

I say this as a getting older white guy.

When I first got my license I could totally relate to this. It was pretty intimidating being at EAA Chapters, Fly-in's and being in the FBO, because it's mostly older generations who see this newly minted teen pilot walking through the door. It's easy for them to come across in a condescending way.

 

[Everskyward]

What the hell does race have to do with this discussion?

I think the poster was describing the demographic, not implying that they discriminate. Many people gravitate to activities in which their peers participate in larger numbers. But the demographic for pilots has always been like that, even 40 years ago. Most of the young people getting into it were looking at it as a career, not recreation.

Yes, I felt the differences as a young person walking into room filled with people twice as old as me, who were a different gender and race. I got over it but it's more difficult for others.

 

[mondtster]

As a young guy by most pilot standards (I'm 29), the biggest obstacle by FAR is cost. Nothing else.

When it costs anywhere from $125-$300 an hour to learn to fly, only lottery winners and upper middle class can afford it. The guy above me hit it right on the head, why is my cell phone $600 but a system that doesn't do a quarter as much $20,000.

Time is a non issue, old vs new planes are a non issue, etc. I'd someone is interested in flying says "hey, I'd like to learn to fly, wonder how much that will cost?" And they do a quick internet search and find out it's roughly $10,000 they immediate move on to something else.

You may perceive cost to be a barrier to younger people but I personally don't believe it is. I work with a bunch of 20 and 30 something year olds and every time I pull into the parking lot at work I see new or nearly new diesel trucks towing trailers full of new or nearly new snowmobiles, pulling trucks or tractors, race cars, campers, etc. These guys think nothing of dropping $10k+ on a new engine for their toy or just a new toy altogether.

I think the waiting/learning period is what puts people off more than anything. They can go out and play with the other toys with little or no instruction yet flying requires a minimum of 40 hours to get a private certificate. Between weather delays and schedule conflicts, etc. I think people get discouraged rather quickly when they won't be able to take a couple of lessons then just venture out on their own.

 

[Everskyward]

The confluence of having the time, desire, and money doesn't happen very often, and never has. People seem to think this is a problem of the current younger generation, but it isn't.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

A car rental service at small airports. If I could go into a small airport and rent a car via app in a matter of minutes I would pay quite a bit. So many small town airports that are a few miles out of town and the taxi service is non existent or sucks.

A company plants two Nissan leafs plugged in, you can reserve the car before you take off, unlock it when you get there, you get 100 miles of range and when you plug it back in you get charged 50 bucks via app and leave. Computers could manage it. Just need someone to drive around and do the very minimal electric car maintenance

It's okay if someone steals this idea, just start it on Northern California

 

[FormerHangie]

I don't think this matters especially considering there's not a lot of difference between a new 182 and a 50 year-old model. In most ways the 50 year-old version is better actually.

That's where the issue lies. You're not going to catch the interest of all that many people with warmed over sixty year old designs.

Here's what a 1968 Sea Doo looks like:

Here's a current one, and not a particularly fancy one at that:

If PWC designe hadn't advanced, and the makers were still trying to sell a warmed over version of the 1968 design, how many takers do you think there would be?

I'd like to see a set of ASTM standards developed, and accepted by the FAA, for a four seat 180 hp aircraft, similar to what Light Sport is certified to, we might get a couple of manufacturers to start making some updated designs. They'd still probably cost $250,000 and rent for more than a lot of us could spend, but it would be a step in the right direction.

 

[azure]

I haven't seen anyone mention the difficulties of getting and holding onto a 3rd class medical, so I'll mention them.

They keep younger pilots with bogus ADHD diagnoses from getting a PPL (which is a significant percentage of the population who would be so inclined) and they encourage many older, capable pilots to leave the fold long before their time. Medical reform may not be the most pressing "need" in GA but it is definitely one. At least now there's reason to hope for some relief within the next year, but if it comes to reality it will help only older pilots and those who have already been through the 3rd class wringer, not the younger ADHD-diagnosed crowd.

 

[Kritchlow]

Are MORE regulations will fix this? Rules don't deter people who lack integrity.

No, but moral people won't rob a liquor store either. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have a law against it.

 

[hockeyrcks9901]

You may perceive cost to be a barrier to younger people but I personally don't believe it is. I work with a bunch of 20 and 30 something year olds and every time I pull into the parking lot at work I see new or nearly new diesel trucks towing trailers full of new or nearly new snowmobiles, pulling trucks or tractors, race cars, campers, etc. These guys think nothing of dropping $10k+ on a new engine for their toy or just a new toy altogether.

I think the waiting/learning period is what puts people off more than anything. They can go out and play with the other toys with little or no instruction yet flying requires a minimum of 40 hours to get a private certificate. Between weather delays and schedule conflicts, etc. I think people get discouraged rather quickly when they won't be able to take a couple of lessons then just venture out on their own.

That may play a part as well but the overwhelming majority of my friends cannot afford and do not own a new vehicle of any type.

When they ask how much my pilot's certificate is costing me and I tell them approximately $10,000 by the time I'm done they are speechless. Then when I add that on top of that cost, it will be approximately $100-150 per hour to rent a plane after that, they are again speechless.

It's been a lifelong dream of mine and that's why I'm doing it but the barrier to entry into this market for young people is CRAZY high. When you investigate the decision tree: do I spend $10,000 to get the certificate and then add ownership or renter's costs on top of that and compare versus the ownership costs of a jetski than most people will take the jetski. Only those who truly have a passion for learning to fly will take the flying choice.

In the end, if we could make flying a $50/hour venture (not saying it's possible, just if) then we would have a flood of people dying to get in the air. As it is now, people cannot afford it.

 

[exncsurfer]

That may play a part as well but the overwhelming majority of my friends cannot afford and do not own a new vehicle of any type.

When they ask how much my pilot's certificate is costing me and I tell them approximately $10,000 by the time I'm done they are speechless. Then when I add that on top of that cost, it will be approximately $100-150 per hour to rent a plane after that, they are again speechless.

It's been a lifelong dream of mine and that's why I'm doing it but the barrier to entry into this market for young people is CRAZY high. When you investigate the decision tree: do I spend $10,000 to get the certificate and then add ownership or renter's costs on top of that and compare versus the ownership costs of a jetski than most people will take the jetski. Only those who truly have a passion for learning to fly will take the flying choice.

In the end, if we could make flying a $50/hour venture (not saying it's possible, just if) then we would have a flood of people dying to get in the air. As it is now, people cannot afford it.

Yep, this. I play ice hockey, I used to think that was expensive. And I'm not a broke college student either. 2 hours of plane rental = 1 fifteen game season of ice hockey. Sticker shock was my 2nd impression, after the 1st one: cold shoulder.

I would add though that looking at cost for PPL as a separate cost isn't the right way to look at it in my opinion. The hourly fee is what it is(which is high), you might have more fun going on burger run's than working on your cert, but its still flying and I don't really see the need to separate 'towards the ppl' from just flying in general. If you did that much flying in that amount of time thereafter you'd spend nearly the same is all I'm saying.

 

[SoCalPilot88]

I agree with must that's been said, however, one of the biggest issues I've seen is that GA is not friendly to outsiders (other than pilots). When I got out of the military and wanted to finish my ppl. I walked into three flight schools with money in pocket and logbook in hand before anyone asked "May I help you?"... Who knows how many student opportunities have been missed when this is their first encounter...

Agreed. When I started flying at the age of 18, I was surprised by the lukewarm customer service offered by the local flight school. Thinking it was just an issue with the one FBO, I looked at other airports and it was worse. Some places, you walk in and all conversation ceases as they stare down the outsider like some creepy scene from Deliverance. A general aviation FBO is the only business I know of where you can walk in, slap a thousand dollars cash on the desk, and you still get treated like you are a nuisance.


Although poor customer service is an issue, the greatest barrier is cost. When I started my flight lessons in 1988, a Cessna 152 was ~$30 an hour to rent wet. The Cessna 172s were ~38 an hour. If you wanted that newer Cessna 172 P model with fancy DME it was a whopping $42 an hour wet. I was working as a drywaller and I was able to pay for my PPL training and go on vacations in these planes – all without financial assistance. This is impossible for someone in their late teens to do in today’s economy.

 

[James331]

I think the poster was describing the demographic, not implying that they discriminate. Many people gravitate to activities in which their peers participate in larger numbers. But the demographic for pilots has always been like that, even 40 years ago. Most of the young people getting into it were looking at it as a career, not recreation.

Yes, I felt the differences as a young person walking into room filled with people twice as old as me, who were a different gender and race. I got over it but it's more difficult for others.

For me and some of my friends, we were going to fly, room could have had three Martians, a zombi and Bruce Jenner in it, didn't make one difference, we were just there to learn from those with more experience and fly airplanes, if you're just following what your peers are doing, you're probably not headed down a good road anyways.

That's where the issue lies. You're not going to catch the interest of all that many people with warmed over sixty year old designs.

Here's what a 1968 Sea Doo looks like:

Here's a current one, and not a particularly fancy one at that:

If PWC designe hadn't advanced, and the makers were still trying to sell a warmed over version of the 1968 design, how many takers do you think there would be?

I'd like to see a set of ASTM standards developed, and accepted by the FAA, for a four seat 180 hp aircraft, similar to what Light Sport is certified to, we might get a couple of manufacturers to start making some updated designs. They'd still probably cost $250,000 and rent for more than a lot of us could spend, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Lol, you're a pilot right?

If you put a new paint job on a 172N, park it next to a 172SP, people will think they are th exact same thing.

As I said in another thread, non aviation folks thought my old 46' was a 2003 or later because of the nice paint and interior, people who are educated in aviation knew it was a 1940s airframe and thought it was really cool, win win.

Besides, folks are normally so excited and very thing is so new on that discovery flight, they probably remember way more about the EXPERINCE than what style door latches the plane had.

 

[Everskyward]

For me and some of my friends, we were going to fly, room could have had three Martians, a zombi and Bruce Jenner in it, didn't make one difference, we were just there to learn from those with more experience and fly airplanes, if you're just following what your peers are doing, you're probably not headed down a good road anyways..

That would completely depend on who your peers are.

You may not realize it, but you come across on this board as being dismissive of large groups of people so it's hard to say how welcoming you might be.

 

[James331]

Aside from midgets (can't trust em) and fat folks (the jolly ones are cool though), I get along with everyone

 

[KFD]

I haven't seen anyone mention the difficulties of getting and holding onto a 3rd class medical, so I'll mention them.

They keep younger pilots with bogus ADHD diagnoses from getting a PPL (which is a significant percentage of the population who would be so inclined) and they encourage many older, capable pilots to leave the fold long before their time. Medical reform may not be the most pressing "need" in GA but it is definitely one. At least now there's reason to hope for some relief within the next year, but if it comes to reality it will help only older pilots and those who have already been through the 3rd class wringer, not the younger ADHD-diagnosed crowd.

There's a lot of truth in this. Way too many parents accept or even encourage these bogus ADHD diagnoses because it is easier to just try to medicate instead of solving problems another way, or because in some cases there are benefits (educational or otherwise). The long term effects are not considered for example in this case as it relates to 3rd class medicals for those young people.

 

[Everskyward]

Aside from midgets (can't trust em) and fat folks (the jolly ones are cool though), I get along with everyone

Even plastic airplane loving iphone users?

 

[James331]

Even plastic airplane loving iphone users?

The plastic experimental RGs are cool

I do admit, I'm a iPhone guy myself.

 

[bnt83]

I'm around new stuff everyday, so I have a better understanding what it costs to own and fix it. Yes new stuff is really shiny and all that but when stuff fails, pony up. Start surfing the Garmin website and figure out what repairing individual components of a G1000 avionics system cost.

For example, a service bulletin issued for delamination of the primary flight display screens? Each screen is $1700 repair

$800 in parts to replace the standby battery for a G1000?

$560 just for the main battery in a T182T.

No thanks.

 

[gitmo234]

It boils down to cost.

My '56 is cheap on maintenance and even it carries a $20k overhaul cost. No matter how you say "yeah but that's years away" its still sticks in the mind. ADS-B would be great if the cheapest compliant way to meet the requirement wasnt $2k (parts alone, not installation).

I would suspect that a lot of non-flyers dont see aviation as an alternate mode of transportation. I've used my airplane for business trips, commuting to work actually, vacations, charity, etc.

There's also the community aspect. I almost left more than once early on in my training simply because I found I had to work almost equally as hard at making "friends" with old timers at the FBO just so I wasnt treated like crap. This forum has some good examples. Nowadays I avoid most of the pilot and GA community, but I engage non-flyers and students. Ive had some good results explaining to them that not everyone is and old crusty ass who will call you and idiot for playing some tunes on a longer flight.

 

[genna]

yep.
I am on the wrong side of 40, and am the youngest guy at our EAA chapter.

the decline in pilot population over the past 20 odd years hasn't been stopped yet.

it cost me about $4,000 to get ppl in '94. that was a decent chunk of change in '94. the costs I here now for a ppl would almost buy a new car. the rate of aviation inflation far out paced wage growth. $160/hr 172 rentals don't help grow GA, that for sure.

$4000 in 1994 is about $6500 today.. Probably not quite enough to get ppl, but not that far off... However, in 1994 you could actually buy a new car for $4000 . Not that you would want to. Yugo was about $4K.

The least expensive car today is Nissan Versa(much better than Yugo, I admit) at around $13K

 

[James331]

It boils down to cost.

My '56 is cheap on maintenance and even it carries a $20k overhaul cost. No matter how you say "yeah but that's years away" its still sticks in the mind. ADS-B would be great if the cheapest compliant way to meet the requirement wasnt $2k (parts alone, not installation).

I would suspect that a lot of non-flyers dont see aviation as an alternate mode of transportation. I've used my airplane for business trips, commuting to work actually, vacations, charity, etc.

There's also the community aspect. I almost left more than once early on in my training simply because I found I had to work almost equally as hard at making "friends" with old timers at the FBO just so I wasnt treated like crap. This forum has some good examples. Nowadays I avoid most of the pilot and GA community, but I engage non-flyers and students. Ive had some good results explaining to them that not everyone is and old crusty ass who will call you and idiot for playing some tunes on a longer flight.

Not sure about PA, I've always ended up shooting the chit with the locals for a coons age, some of the old timers arnt exactly sensitive types so I could see how them messing around a little could offend some folks, if you through it back at them you'll be just fine

 

[denverpilot]

Newer equipment. You're not going to attract new pilots with aircraft that are older than they are.

Well actually I know plenty of folks who are non-pilots who are attracted to old radials. But they eventually find out that's a millionaire's game for the most part.

 

[James331]

Well actually I know plenty of folks who are non-pilots who are attracted to old radials. But they eventually find out that's a millionaire's game for the most part.

Also a decent percentage of younger aviation folks in the backcountry scene, all those planes are older, newest skywagons are 1980s, real Cubs and what not, old 182s are desirable, U206s, 207s, DHC2s, etc.

 

[gitmo234]

Not sure about PA, I've always ended up shooting the chit with the locals for a coons age, some of the old timers arnt exactly sensitive types so I could see how them messing around a little could offend some folks, if you through it back at them you'll be just fine

This was when I was newer. Where I'm based out of now, there isnt a single person I wouldnt talk to. I've run into a few crusty guys who arent worth my time, but I've had my cert a few years. Five years ago when i took my first discovery flight, it was different. As an example, just a few years ago I posted about a time when glider pilots screwed up radio work and the jump school acted like asshats on the radio to me as a student. The FBO even came back and said I was 100% in the right and it was their fault (glider had a radio that didnt work and skydivers werent following the airport traffic pattern) but even venting about that on here I had a few people say what amounted to "You're just a punk kid trying to tell old timers they're wrong".

Try that with a new kid who is about to spend $8k or more on a cert and see how that works. Shortly after that my CFI drank a few too many and was late (along with some other issues) to class, so I took myself and my airplane to a different airport. Works that way with hobbies too. That airport has called me a couple times about my credit I have left over and why i dont come back because they know im paying for a tie down and maintenance somewhere else. oh well.

 

[ircphoenix]

but even venting about that on here I had a few people say what amounted to "You're just a punk kid trying to tell old timers they're wrong".

Doesn't happen. Just review the last 10 or so posts. Flawless, inclusive, friendly. How dare you suggest otherwise.

All existing pilots are friendly. Age is not a factor, as the average age of all pilots is fine. Demographic representation is fine, as most races are already well represented in general aviation. People don't want new stuff. Cost isn't prohibitive.

Everything's fine. Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

[timwinters]

It boils down to cost.

My '56 is cheap on maintenance and even it carries a $20k overhaul cost. No matter how you say "yeah but that's years away" its still sticks in the mind.

I overhauled the engine on my 182 last fall. In addition EVERYTHING fIrewall forward was redone. The total cost was over $40k. The last run went 1500 hours.

But think about it...

I use my plane for business and it does 150 mph (or more). And I get to fly in a straight line...thus cutting at least 10% off of the trip (going out to my present workplace it's 20% shorter by air).

So in round numbers 1500 X 150 X 1.1 = 250,000. I'd pretty much wear out a $40,000 vehicle in 250,000 miles.

Then factor in the time savings and fun factor and...

 

[FloridaPilot]

From my experiences as a new pilot learning to fly at age 45..

#1. Airports (Small and large) aren't very welcoming to new people. Today's kids have too many distractions and prefer not to be outside. Do kids today know what it's like to walk with a stick in your hand...geez.
#2. I wish there were more airshows as big as OSH every year, One in Seattle, California and New York.
#3. Like everyone mentioned..COSTS. Especially maintenance costs if parts were cheaper people would keep planes better maintained and in return less accidents.
#4. Airplane hate. I've seen it many times on here and I'd wish it would stop. Just because a person flies two engines or an airplane with a parachute doesn't make them less of a pilot. They just want more options just in case....Nothing wrong with that.
#5. I wish CFI's were more mentors than pilots that were just passing through trying to obtain hours.

 

[timwinters]

#4. Airplane hate. I've seen it many times on here and I'd wish it would stop. Just because a person flies two engines or an airplane with a parachute doesn't make them less of a pilot. They just want more options just in case....Nothing wrong with that.

Bravo!

 

[FormerHangie]

Lol, you're a pilot right?

If you put a new paint job on a 172N, park it next to a 172SP, people will think they are th exact same thing.

As I said in another thread, non aviation folks thought my old 46' was a 2003 or later because of the nice paint and interior, people who are educated in aviation knew it was a 1940s airframe and thought it was really cool, win win.

Besides, folks are normally so excited and very thing is so new on that discovery flight, they probably remember way more about the EXPERINCE than what style door latches the plane had.

I got my ticket in 1978. I flew until 1983, but had nowhere to go and drifted out of it. I took up hang gliding 8 years ago.

Your point that you could paint a 30 year old 172 like a new one and most people couldn't is exactly my point as well. I've been around aviation almost 50 years, and we're flying the same airframes and engines as when I was a kid. While there certainly folks who are fine with that, I'm thinking there are lots more who would expect something up to date. Back when I took my first airplane ride, an O-360 was a reasonably up to date technology.. Now, it's lawnmower technology, and the cheapest car is fuel injected and has the automotive equivalent of FADEC. If I were 25 years old and interested in aviation,I'd be disappointed in how old tech the aviation fleet is

 

[denverpilot]

#5. I wish CFI's were more mentors than pilots that were just passing through trying to obtain hours.

This one is tough. As an "older" soon to be CFI candidate I've thought about this one quite a bit. I certainly want to be a mentor and pass along the joy of aviation as well as be an instructor, but that's a fine line. It's hard to be hired by someone to teach and evaluate them and also be their "bestest buddy". The role has to change as needed.

The pilots who are supposed to be mentors are the OTHER pilots at the airport, not the guy or gal you hire to evaluate you and sometimes have to kick your ass into gear when you've developed a deadly habit or two.

But folks are busy, most pilots who can make enough money to do it for fun are very hard workers at their jobs and have lots of stuff going on in their lives. They're not the old gang that had decent but menial jobs and hung around the airport reading Trade-A-Plane on a Saturday.

Man I'd love to do more of that and probably will a LITTLE but the reality is, to even chase the desire to give a little back to this amazing group of people and machinery that's been one of the greatest joys of my life, I'll be keeping my day job for quite a while.

Maybe it can morph into being less hours and replace some of those with instructing, but full time instructing looks like a pretty good way to go really really broke unless you're also producing course material and selling it, or have a niche type or special TAA knowledge and specialize heavily.

So 70-90 hour weeks look like what the future likely holds as a full time worker with an instructing fetish. Or more. Or less. But it won't be hanging out at the airport sitting in the FBO on the couch shooting the breeze much, like the old days, I don't think. Nor will probably many students I might be lucky enough to pick up probably be doing that much.

But in the end, I'm on the clock when I arrive, and I'm doing a job. If we get along and like each other, that's obviously great and I'll happily talk aviation as long as we both have time to talk after the lesson or checkup or whatever is done, but with all the Type A's in aviation, I'd quickly get branded as "wasting my time" by some pilots who need to get to the airport, get their stuff done, and get back to their hectic lives.

And there's that line of "Right now I'm not your friend, I have to tell you that you're doing some things that will get you hurt and I'd prefer to see you around for a long time". Any instructor is going to run into that from time to time.

It's not a small amount of money or time that I'm investing to be able to do this. I'd rather do it well and be known as a good teacher than everyone's best friend on the airport.

We have an instructor around here who's like that. He's everyone's friend. He's purely awful at paperwork and regs. He dismisses student queries about how to get better at regs and stuff they need memorized with phrases like "oh you don't need to know all that as long as you can fly", and he's constantly picking up students because he's always the salesman telling them how great it all is. Which is nice. But he has a lot of students leave him to more organized instructors and he's had at least one 709 ride amongst other disciplinary action by an employer that I can't get into here, for not following the organizations rules. Got the Ray Bans and the leather jacket, so he must know what he's doing, right?

When I heard him on the radio the other day I said to my current CFI, "that's so and so. Haven't heard him in a while. I don't trust him at all." Current CFI wisely said back (because aviation is a very small world), "I've heard stories."

No instructors can really afford to be "that guy", but every area has one. Gotta be careful with that stuff. You can't be everybody's best buddy, and that may bother *some* Millenials and folks who want the "besties" experience or who may be shocked that they just hired someone to critique them, if they're not used to being critiqued.

Obviously I'll be your friend in the cockpit if you decide you don't mind that and we'll probably be flying to more shared lunches somewhere than most people ever go to with most of their co-workers and I may even see you more than your own family for a while in your life ... But I'm also paid to do a job and not waste the students' time or money.

Interesting thoughts to ponder as I work through the requirements to do this stuff.

 

[KFD]

#4. Airplane hate. I've seen it many times on here and I'd wish it would stop. Just because a person flies two engines or an airplane with a parachute doesn't make them less of a pilot. They just want more options just in case....Nothing wrong with that.

Yes this one bugs me as well. You would think we would want to support each other instead of being at each other's throats at times.

 

[FlyingElvii]

When I first got my license I could totally relate to this. It was pretty intimidating being at EAA Chapters, Fly-in's and being in the FBO, because it's mostly older generations who see this newly minted teen pilot walking through the door. It's easy for them to come across in a condescending way.

Hell, I ran into this in the local EAA chapter, and I'm over 50. I have been an EAA member long before many in that room ever heard of it. (1976)

That's why approx. 10% of EAA chapters close every year. But luckily, they always seem to get replaced by younger, stronger leadership. In this, the EAA has been truly lucky. (SO FAR...)

 

[FlyingElvii]

I think the poster was describing the demographic, not implying that they discriminate. Many people gravitate to activities in which their peers participate in larger numbers. But the demographic for pilots has always been like that, even 40 years ago. Most of the young people getting into it were looking at it as a career, not recreation.

Yes, I felt the differences as a young person walking into room filled with people twice as old as me, who were a different gender and race. I got over it but it's more difficult for others.

LOL...
The OP never had to deal with the WW2 and Korea-era pilots. Talk about condescending. It's generational, not racial.