wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
And that's what the investigation will determine. Even without the transponder, he should paint a primary target.
F16 vs Cessna 150 collision
- Thread starter DaveA
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And that's what the investigation will determine. Even without the transponder, he should paint a primary target.
Cessna was flying NNE, from KMKS to KMYR. F16 was travelling South, from KSSC to KCHS. F16 T-boned the Cessna on the left. Hence the Cessna had the right of way. Remember the rules of the road (or the air) (91.113): The airplane to the other's right has the right-of-way. The F-16 had the C150 on its right (before it slammed into it). Hence the F16 was absolutely at fault here. This is somewhat academic as a C150 is obviously not going to purposefully pull in front of an F16 just because the C150 technically has the right of way, but the fact remains that the C150 DID technically have the right of way.
And, remember, an IFR plane is VMC remains responsible for separation from other VFR aircraft.
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RyanShort1
Final Approach
If that information on the flight path is true, then yeah.
Gsxrpilot
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I was returning home in my Mooney with an inop Mode C. My airport is Class G. I had to skirt KAUS and made sure to stay plenty clear of their Class C. I was monitoring Approach and heard them talking to a Delta flight inbound. The Delta flight was told to stop their descent and turn 10 degrees for traffic. They said they could see the traffic on radar but weren't getting Mode C and didn't know the altitude. They said the traffic's speed is 140kts so "probably below you". I was the traffic and saw the Delta jet go over the top of me. Delta had stopped their descent at 12000 and I was at 2000. Weather was CAVU. Now I know my transponder was on squawking 1200 but no Mode C. Regardless, ATC was watching and ensuring separation.
Silvaire
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The purpose of the radar on an F-16 is to illuminate targets so that the passive radar of a guided missile can track it. They don't fly around using it as a traffic monitor. Airliners have radar too, it's used for weather.
James331
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...and in VMC all parties share the responsibility to see and avoid, regardless of right of way.
Nauga,
who very nearly took a face full of airplane on a clear day under positive control
RotorDude
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How do you know there weren't some cumulus clouds between the F-16 and the C150? If his vision was restricted, there was no way the F-16 could see and avoid the Cessna.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
I've flown thousands of miles in IR routes, many when the only times I spoke with ATC was on entry and exit. Many IR routes have ATC reporting points, but it's just a check-in, they may or may not have me on radar on check-in, may or may not respond, I may have moved beyound low altitude radio coverage by the time they do respond.
Many many miles in IR routes below ATC radar coverage.
Many many miles in IR routes actually IFR /IMC at 400ft AGL (terrain following) and 540knts and not talking to ATC.
Yes even in IR routes, responsible for own traffic avoidance in VMC.
If the F16 was flying between 2000 and 3000, and the lowest cloud layer was 3500-4000 scattered, then?
cowman
Final Approach
Am I the only one thinking that who is legally responsible is less of an issue than the fact it happened at all?
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One of the reasons that ATC likes transponders is because primary radars have a minimum probability of detection down around 0.8 (there is a trade-off between higher Pd and lower Pfa (false alarms)). Secondary radars have a much higher probability of detect.
This is a +1500ft IR route (as indicated by the number -- IRxxx, here 018) and he was communicating with ATC, and was flying between 2k and 3k ft.
Granted, but I hate the rush to judgment (seen on many news articles) that obviously the private pilot screwed up somehow (because it's always GA's fault, obviously).
RotorDude
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I am not aware of any technology that would tell us whether a cumulus cloud is (or is not) sitting at some altitude over a random spot. Even over the airport it's far from accurate, and this wasn't over an airport.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Additionally the gain is often reduced to avoid clutter (particularly in Class B and C approach control airspace) so that small primary targets without a good xpdr signal may not even be noticed.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Oh please. That hasn't slowed you down here.
I said the rush to judgment against GA, which is often the victim in these situations.
Silvaire
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Absolutely but it's weapons control radar right? Do they use it to monitor traffic?
I would think not.
Comanche flyer
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Nothing about this guarantees that the Cessna had the right of way. In fact, depending on which way the Cessna was hit broadside, it might be absolutely the C-150s "fault" if the Cessna was headed one direction and the F-16 was to their right. Those jets are moving fast, and if the pilot is looking one direction for traffic called out by ATC, he might not see something on the other side of the aircraft in time. One could argue that with two people on board, there were twice as many eyes on the Cessna and more chance of avoidance.
I was flying near Breckenridge, TX doing a photo mission and this T-38 blasted pretty close to us. I saw him coming - which is why I was able to snap the pictures, but the T-38s are VERY, VERY hard to spot.
Try to spot the dam white T38 from NASA fkng hate those Russian pilots.
On my way back from key west last week I got in IMC ifr over Pensacola HOT MOA atc dint give much crap about till he start telling me I was close to cpl fighters I told atc I'm trying not to get kill here pls vector me away, he trow me a heading changing but he was not happy to vector me in IFR, atc some times are dicks, more if you are in ifr flight. Once clear of MOA I cancel IFR went vfr and landed was mentally drained by that time.
Man, some of you armchair fourth-stringers need to intern with the NTSB. Pop quiz, how long does it take to cover 1 NM at 250 knots? Now throw in 2-4,000 scattered clouds.
Why don't we wait until the professionals and the people who are actually there finish their investigation before we vote down the flag?
Why don't we wait until the professionals and the people who are actually there finish their investigation before we vote down the flag?
BillTIZ
Final Approach
You forget that a 20# brown pelican took out a B-1B.
A lot of air-to-air missiles are a lot smaller than a C150.
The NTSB doesn't determine fault, they determine probable cause. A jury or judge determines fault (and their findings are often at odds with the PC determinations of the NTSB anyways). And as a lawyer, I feel qualified to stir sh*t up.Man, some of you armchair fourth-stringers need to intern with the NTSB. Pop quiz, how long does it take to cover 1 NM at 250 knots? Now throw in 2-4,000 scattered clouds.
Why don't we wait until the professionals and the people who are actually there finish their investigation before we vote down the flag?
Down with 'Murica!
I missed it -- deleted the post. Sorry.
I flew in Florida with MOA's every 10 miles -- saw several busting out (actually miles from the MOA) screaming at 1,000 agl. They served as great examples to my students. I am not anti-military but with their speed, they need to stay inside their airspace and not violate the rest of us.
I flew in Florida with MOA's every 10 miles -- saw several busting out (actually miles from the MOA) screaming at 1,000 agl. They served as great examples to my students. I am not anti-military but with their speed, they need to stay inside their airspace and not violate the rest of us.
Imagine if there was no actual collision, but the 150 was blasted out of the sky from wake turbulence from the F-16.
"A Piper Cessna has crashed from unknown causes. The FAA says the plane had not filed a flight plan."
"A Piper Cessna has crashed from unknown causes. The FAA says the plane had not filed a flight plan."
vi·o·late
ˈvīəˌlāt
rape or sexually assault (someone).
synonyms: rape, sexually assault, assault, force oneself on, abuse, attack, molest, interfere with; archaicdefile, deflower, dishonor, ruin; literaryravish
"he drugged and then violated her"
A few of those apply!
Mike Smith
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lawyer........reinforcing the stereotype.
Interesting, I didn't ask.
Counselor, go back to your office and let the professionals handle it.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
It explains a lot. His only qualification here is to run his mouth.
Get a life. You're one to talk with your 9000 posts. Don't get out much, do you? I'm sorry I'm interfering in your little fiefdom. Oh wait, no I'm not.
An LEO was being cross-examined by a defense attorney during a felony trial. The lawyer was trying to undermine the policeman's credibility..
Q: "Officer -- did you see my client fleeing the scene?"
A: "No sir. But I subsequently observed a person matching the
description of the offender, running several blocks away."
Q: "Officer -- who provided this description?"
A: "The officer who responded to the scene."
Q: "A fellow officer provided the description of this so-called offender. Do you trust your fellow officers?"
A: "Yes, sir. With my life."
Q: "With your life? Let me ask you this then, officer. Do you have a room where you change your clothes in preparation for your daily duties?"
A: "Yes sir, we do."
Q: "And do you have a locker in the room?"
A: "Yes sir, I do."
Q: "And do you have a lock on your locker?"
A: "Yes sir."
Q: "Now why is it, officer, if you trust your fellow officers with your life, you find it necessary to lock your locker in a room you share with these same officers?"
A: "You see, sir -- we share the building with the court complex, and sometimes lawyers have been known to walk through that room."
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, at some point they need to land, take off, energy and leave the MOA.
Meh, I've heard it before. Besides I'm not that kind of lawyer.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Internet lawyer. Even worse than a sea lawyer!
Actually, when I was in the Navy I used to be called a sea lawyer, because I knew the regs pretty well. But that was before I became an internet lawyer.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Get a life. You're one to talk with your 9000 posts. Don't get out much, do you? I'm sorry I'm interfering in your little fiefdom. Oh wait, no I'm not.
Over the course of several years (and most of those on deployments or sitting around on shore duty). Hardly a fiefdom, but you are most welcome to it.