Center Always Looking For Us After Landing

Kritchlow said:
Not sure what to tell you... Never had an issue. He must have known this from his ATC days and been aware of the consequences.
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I'm not saying that people are going around enforcing small stuff like that.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not saying that people are going around enforcing small stuff like that.
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And his phraseology could have been a bit different... Possibly "we would like to stay on the code", vs "we are staying on the code". With the first, a positive acknowledgement from ATC would imply approval.
Not saying that's exactly the way it went (years ago), but it was never question by ATC or other.
 
Kritchlow said:
I used to fly with a guy that likes to cancel on final. He is a retired Atlanta Center air traffic controller. When told "squawk 1200", he always responded "no, we'll stay on our code". He once explained why, but I can't remember. It was more than just identification of a target, as 1200 would do that, and non radar environment it wouldn't matter anyway.

Thoughts?
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My thought is why is he still talking with ATC on short final?

Why does he want to stay on his discrete code? Perhaps he had his hands full just flying the airplane. It's not a big deal, he could have just said "Roger" and stayed on the code anyway.
 
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Kritchlow said:
Well, he did have a full career at Atlanta Center, so I do think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
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What doubt? Keeping the discrete code vs. changing to 1200 has no benefit. And no harm.
 
roncachamp said:
My thought is why is he still talking with ATC on short final?

Why does he want to stay on his discrete code? Perhaps he had his hands full just flying the airplane. It's not a big deal, he could have just said "Roger" and stayed on the code anyway.
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He's not talking to ATC on final. He just keeps the transponder code.
He is a well qualified, competent ATP with several type ratings.

That said, if I had the answer as to why he does it, I wouldn't be here wondering myself!! :D
 
roncachamp said:
Then who is he cancelling with?
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He cancels with ATC close to the airport, possibly on final, but not "short final". We have multiple radios in the airplane so it's pretty easy to jump to #2 and cancel (although I'm not a fan of that).
 
EdFred said:
I think Jesse is recalling Tony coming in the next night which was quite a bit earlier than when I arrived.

Of course, Pete and Kent arrived at 6Y9 when it was even later.
Found the thread it was in.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14521


And a quote from Jesse:
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Your post pretty much confirms what Jesse said. Sounds like there was enough light left for you to see your way between the trees. Someone on the ground would still see only a shape and a landing light.

Give it up Ed, your crazy man disguise is blown. :D
 
roncachamp said:
What doubt? Keeping the discrete code vs. changing to 1200 has no benefit. And no harm.
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My home airport is below the shelf of a Charlie airspace. There have been times I have been flying home, in the Charlie on flight following when I am told radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved. My CFII has said to leave the code on the prior discreet code to let them know I am the same plane they were just talking to, since we are still in the Charlie. I suppose that might be some benefit.
 
PPC1052 said:
My home airport is below the shelf of a Charlie airspace. There have been times I have been flying home, in the Charlie on flight following when I am told radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved. My CFII has said to leave the code on the prior discreet code to let them know I am the same plane they were just talking to, since we are still in the Charlie. I suppose that might be some benefit.
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If there was any benefit in it you wouldn't have been told to squawk VFR.
 
roncachamp said:
If there was any benefit in it you wouldn't have been told to squawk VFR.
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That is sort of my thought. I am sort of meh about that piece of advice. I am never very excited when they tell me frequency change approved/squawk vfr while still in the Charlie. But it's only for about 30 seconds or so. So I guess it's a small issue in the grand scheme of things.

Thanks for the input.
 
PPC1052 said:
That is sort of my thought. I am sort of meh about that piece of advice. I am never very excited when they tell me frequency change approved/squawk vfr while still in the Charlie. But it's only for about 30 seconds or so. So I guess it's a small issue in the grand scheme of things.
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That happened to me routinely when flying to 3DA (Flushing, MI) from the southeast through FNT's airspace. Sometimes they would cut me loose as soon as I had crossed 18's extended centerline and I still had another 2 minutes or so in the Charlie. Bottom line, I trust that they wouldn't do it if it would cause them any problem, as long as I just proceeded to my destination and didn't do anything unexpected.
 
azure said:
That happened to me routinely when flying to 3DA (Flushing, MI) from the southeast through FNT's airspace. Sometimes they would cut me loose as soon as I had crossed 18's extended centerline and I still had another 2 minutes or so in the Charlie. Bottom line, I trust that they wouldn't do it if it would cause them any problem, as long as I just proceeded to my destination and didn't do anything unexpected.
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Little Rock has the tendency to cut you lose if your landing at North Little Rock. I've been cut lose as soon as I entered the Charlie because it was a slow period. I've been told as long as we "try" to raise departure leaving North Little Rock they don't get annoy if we brush the shelf.
 
Once going IFR on a visual approach into West Houston airport (KIWS) I had to go around on short final because some idiot in a Piper decided he a) needed to take off right then, and b) didn't feel the need to tell anyone. Several other aircraft witnessed my go-around and commented about it over the air - that's how blatant it was. The guy in the Piper never uttered a sound. I had not air cancelled IFR. As I was taxiing off the runway after finally landing, someone relayed that approach wanted me to call them. I called the listed approach freq to cancel IFR and they gave me a phone number to call.

I called the phone number and they said that the controller "thought I was doing touch and gos" because they saw me going around the pattern. I told them I got cut off and had to execute a go-around - and I was still probably audibly ****ed about that fact. They laughed and said thanks, no problem, just checking.

So yeah they don't really know what's going on and they'd like you to land as soon as possible. In my case I really should have just air cancelled and probably will in the future - not worth the hassle in good VFR.
 
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There are bad operators in every mode of transportation. Cars, boats, planes too. I've come across a few inconsiderate pilots but they do seem to be in the minority. I've been held up a few times by someone refusing to cancel in the air. Probably the worst I've experienced is pulling up to a self service pump with a plane in the way. Jump out, start looking for the pilot and the bleeper is in his plane sleeping!

"I'm so sorry to wake you up but would you mind letting me get to the pump now?"

Unbelievable.
 
narchee said:
There are bad operators in every mode of transportation. Cars, boats, planes too. I've come across a few inconsiderate pilots but they do seem to be in the minority. I've been held up a few times by someone refusing to cancel in the air. Probably the worst I've experienced is pulling up to a self service pump with a plane in the way. Jump out, start looking for the pilot and the bleeper is in his plane sleeping!

"I'm so sorry to wake you up but would you mind letting me get to the pump now?"

Unbelievable.
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Just curious... Why not depart VFR and get an airborn release?
 
Kritchlow said:
Just curious... Why not depart VFR and get an airborn release?
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Sure, and I do that all the time if conditions are VFR. If they are barely above VFR (like OVC011 let's say), I'm not comfortable leaving VFR. Knowing there is inbound IFR traffic I'm not going to want to stay in the traffic pattern necessarily (that also depends), and call me chicken but I'm not going to want to go too further scud running hoping I get my clearance fairly soon from the center. Then if the clearance is complicated, I've got to deal with that all while scud running. Just because it is OCV011 over the airport doesn't mean it doesn't deteriorate further out. No thank you I'll leave that to the superpilots here (you know who you are ;) ). In that case I'll just wait until the selfish bastard lands, leaves the runway, taxis to the pumps, gets out, scratches himself then calls to cancel :lol:

I get it is their right to not cancel until five minutes after landing, it's just annoying for some of us that is all.
 
narchee said:
Sure, and I do that all the time if conditions are VFR. If they are barely above VFR (like OVC011 let's say), I'm not comfortable leaving VFR. Knowing there is inbound IFR traffic I'm not going to want to stay in the traffic pattern necessarily (that also depends), and call me chicken but I'm not going to want to go too further scud running hoping I get my clearance fairly soon from the center. Then if the clearance is complicated, I've got to deal with that all while scud running. Just because it is OCV011 over the airport doesn't mean it doesn't deteriorate further out. No thank you I'll leave that to the superpilots here (you know who you are ;) ). In that case I'll just wait until the selfish bastard lands, leaves the runway, taxis to the pumps, gets out, scratches himself then calls to cancel :lol:

I get it is their right to not cancel until five minutes after landing, it's just annoying for some of us that is all.
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I don't blame you in the slightest. I think your judgement is spot on as far as the possible complications departing VFR.

My point is why should the arriving aircraft be put in a similar situation? 1100 ovc, and at 800 AGL the pilot is trying to switch frequencies, watch for traffic, as well as other responsibilities. If he needs to execute a go around that complicates things further.

On a side note, notice I said airborn "release", not airborn "clearance". Not sure if all stations do this, but I have gotten my full clearance, and squawk code on the ground. I then told them I would depart VFR and get an airborn release. It had worked well, as there is no fumbling for unexpected routing and such.
 
Kritchlow said:
On a side note, notice I said airborn "release", not airborn "clearance". Not sure if all stations do this, but I have gotten my full clearance, and squawk code on the ground. I then told them I would depart VFR and get an airborn release. It had worked well, as there is no fumbling for unexpected routing and such.
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This strikes me as a good tip.
 
Kritchlow said:
On a side note, notice I said airborn "release", not airborn "clearance". Not sure if all stations do this, but I have gotten my full clearance, and squawk code on the ground. I then told them I would depart VFR and get an airborn release. It had worked well, as there is no fumbling for unexpected routing and such.
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How would you handle "hold for IFR release?" Class E starts at 700 AGL at a lot of places. Holding at 650 AGL does not sound pleasant, even over an airport.
 
MAKG1 said:
How would you handle "hold for IFR release?" Class E starts at 700 AGL at a lot of places. Holding at 650 AGL does not sound pleasant, even over an airport.
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You are departing VFR so this is a non issue. That said, I would tell ATC exactly what I'm doing. Don't want your code to pop up on their screen unexpectedly.

I have done this more than once, but it was several years ago. I specifically remember doing it at Bar Harbor.
 
Kritchlow said:
My point is why should the arriving aircraft be put in a similar situation? 1100 ovc, and at 800 AGL the pilot is trying to switch frequencies, watch for traffic, as well as other responsibilities. If he needs to execute a go around that complicates things further.
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I understand your point at lower ceilings but at 1100 OVC? Breaking out on a typical glide slope at 1100 ovc you have a lot of time to call to cancel before short final. In most cases It takes less than five seconds to flip back to the center or approach and tell them you're cancelling then come back to the local frequency. And if you have to go around, that is not a problem with ceilings at 1100. Just go around in the pattern.

Kritchlow said:
On a side note, notice I said airborn "release", not airborn "clearance". Not sure if all stations do this, but I have gotten my full clearance, and squawk code on the ground. I then told them I would depart VFR and get an airborn release. It had worked well, as there is no fumbling for unexpected routing and such.
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Yes good suggestion.
 
Kritchlow said:
You are departing VFR so this is a non issue. That said, I would tell ATC exactly what I'm doing. Don't want your code to pop up on their screen unexpectedly.

I have done this more than once, but it was several years ago. I specifically remember doing it at Bar Harbor.
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OVC007 is VFR at a Class G airport (in daytime), as long as the visibility is at least one mile.

How much VFR do you require for this process?
 
narchee said:
I understand your point at lower ceilings but at 1100 OVC? Breaking out on a typical glide slope at 1100 ovc you have a lot of time to call to cancel before short final. In most cases It takes less than five seconds to flip back to the center or approach and tell them you're cancelling then come back to the local frequency. And if you have to go around, that is not a problem with ceilings at 1100. Just go around in the pattern.
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Everyone is different, but by the time you are legally VFR it may be fairly close to the ground, and some may not want to be off frequency. Many places you may be too low to even hear ATC and even be talking over an ATC clearance to an airborn aircraft. Now, not only didn't you get your cancellation through, but you've blocked someone else. I do understand that everyday more airports have a remote, so that is less and less of an issue.

I do not disregard other pilots opinion and position about airborn canceling. I wish I was afforded the same courtesy. We all have different personal tolerances and certain standards we set for ourselves.
Now, if someone lands and doesn't cancel immediately, I find that a problem. Usually the aircraft behind me waiting to get in is on my last ATC frequency. I have always found flipping back frequencies after landing I could relay a cancellation through that airplane. That has worked well for me.
 
MAKG1 said:
OVC007 is VFR at a Class G airport (in daytime), as long as the visibility is at least one mile.

How much VFR do you require for this process?
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I personally would not depart VFR at 700 OVC. Nor would I cancel on final with that weather, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so.
 
Kritchlow said:
...Usually the aircraft behind me waiting to get in is on my last ATC frequency. I have always found flipping back frequencies after landing I could relay a cancellation through that airplane. That has worked well for me.
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Sounds like a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Kritchlow said:
If it's 7ovc, why would you expect someone inbound to cancel?
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I wouldn't, but some people in this thread seem to think that you always should as soon as you're legal VFR. At a field without a surface Class E, as soon as you pop out under 700 feet, you're legal VFR in the daytime.

As far as departing VFR in CAVU and getting your clearance/release airborne, there are actually TRACONs that discourage that practice (DTW for one). I assume it's because the airspace is busy and they may not be able to deal with you for a while if you call up cold.
 
azure said:
As far as departing VFR in CAVU and getting your clearance/release airborne, there are actually TRACONs that discourage that practice (DTW for one). I assume it's because the airspace is busy and they may not be able to deal with you for a while if you call up cold.
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Potomac otoh. will ask you whether you are able to depart VFR and if you can, they give you the expected route and a squawk on the phone but issue the clearance only after your are airborne.
 
EdFred said:
I never cancel on the ground. Even breaking out at mins, I will still cancel in the air and free up everything for the next guy(s). Then again I don't think I'm the only one flying in the world.


I don't get the "**** everyone else" attitude.
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Be careful. If the weather is below VFR weather minimums and you cancel while VMC on a visual approach clearance you are now operating in IFR weather and controlled airspace without a clearance..... Most of the time what you are doing is ignored by all involved because it makes the airspace more efficient but if anything ever happens during the approach and landing you are giving the feds one more way to violate you.
 
Sounds like an issue with Memphis Center. Every now and gain, ATC will appear a little anxious to get the flight plan closed out. Also every now and again, I'll close on the ground via telephone and it doesn't get passed along.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Be careful. If the weather is below VFR weather minimums and you cancel while VMC on a visual approach clearance you are now operating in IFR weather and controlled airspace without a clearance..... Most of the time what you are doing is ignored by all involved because it makes the airspace more efficient but if anything ever happens during the approach and landing you are giving the feds one more way to violate you.
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Class G surface area.
 
EdFred said:
Class G surface area.
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Does that matter? Cloud clearance and vis requirements in G are one thing, but by definition the field is IFR when below 1000 ceilings.
 
Ed, for the record, my question is not meant as challenging. It is meant as a real question. I don't know exactly how they intertwine the two (cloud & vis requirements, and definition).
 
MAKG1 said:
OVC007 is VFR at a Class G airport (in daytime), as long as the visibility is at least one mile.

How much VFR do you require for this process?
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More than minimums...I don't fly VFR at minimums.
 
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