Learning VOR?

trepine said:
This is not true. GPS can flake on you, probably not the satellites, but I have seen more than one report of G1000 GPS failing, both of them. Apparently certain failure modes related to the antennas can result in jamming the GPS signal to nearby devices including the other GPS and nearby iPad GPS units.

This is not common, and admittedly I fly GPS nearly all the time. But if you have it at least know how it works and how to use it.
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I think we've beaten this to death by now.
 
MAKG1 said:
More likely his company lost the contract. Happens all the time.

Please don't spread urban legends as truth. A FOAF is about as believable as unicorns and leprechauns.
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Per a contact of mine who is involved with the decommissioning planning for VORs, several VORs have been identified as no longer needed and will not be repaired in the event of a major failure. A lot of VORs are still consider essential for various instrument procedures or as a backup to GPS, so they aren't going anywhere... but there will be fewer.
 
Geico266 said:
I've flown nearly 3,000 hours and never had an issue with GPS. How common are GPS failures really?

Granted I only fly VFR (most of the time ;)).

Do VORs give you traffic and weather? :lol: Don't answer that. :lol:

Seriously? Morris code? They don't even teach that any more. :no:
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GPS gives you traffic and weather?? That's new to me....please provide more details!
 
TUPilot said:
Per a contact of mine who is involved with the decommissioning planning for VORs, several VORs have been identified as no longer needed and will not be repaired in the event of a major failure. A lot of VORs are still consider essential for various instrument procedures or as a backup to GPS, so they aren't going anywhere... but there will be fewer.
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Unless there's an update to this document that I haven't seen, the FAA is planning to keep around at least 500 VORs beyond 2020. Those required for the Minimum Operational Network (MON) will be repaired as necessary to keep them functional under this directive.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flig...ns/12-02-Discon_of_VOR_Srvcs_presentation.pdf
 
CTLSi said:
Sadly, the old tech and the old timers are hard to go away. GPS is not going to flake on you, that's the little story the old timers tell to make themselves feel good about resisting new tech.

GPS is fantastic, efficient, and fast. Navcom is crude, wasteful, and absurd considering what GPS can do. If you don't have GPS in whatever rental plane you get, setup an iPad with it and bring it with you on each flight.

To pass the written you have to learn enough to answer five or so questions on it.

If you never go for an instrument rating, you will never deal with it again, unless you want to use VORs as a waypoint on your GPS flight plans. And even then they are nothing more than curiosities on the ground. Also, the chatter in the air for IFR refers to them by name.
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I agree entirely with you. VORs take up space in the panel, the antennas keep me from easily putting the cover on the airplane, the GPS satellites are hardened against solar flares and EMP bursts, the mechanical needles on the VOR indicator break and it's $2K to buy a new GS.....

So, since you're the strongest advocate around here for GPS only, please send me $15K so I can replace my antiquated system in 45 yr old certificated airplane with a new GTN 650. Really appreciate it.

And we all know the answer is Experimental, right? Ok, sell my 45 yr old airplane, probably only get $35K, then spend 2-5 yrs building an experimental where then engine alone will be $35K. Add in $15K for the avionics and panel, and $50K for the airplane. Wait! I still need to find someone to build it, too. Not gonna be me - I do software, not hardware.

I fail to see the logic or the benefit.
 
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CTLSi said:
Do you know what RAIM is for? Let me inform you, it's the same as you verifying a VOR with Morse code. Just because you double check the VORs Morse code ID does it mean the VOR is gonna fail?

You are confusing integrity checking with integrity.

The joke remains with those who A. do not understand how GPS works and B. assume their faulty knowledge set substitutes for an intelligent comment on the subject.
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Oh, I do know how GPS works. I've worked on both onboard and ground software for it. I just try to avoid talking about work when I'm here. What are your credentials in the arena?
 
ja_user said:
I am guessing if the Kennedy VOR went down tonight, someone would be working on it tomorrow.. Anyone take that bet?
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Same for DEN.

We keep,talking about the VORs as an independent system, but aren't the ILS approaches part of the same system? Is WAAS good enough to substitute for ILS?
 
We had a NOTAM here two weeks ago, 2 solid days of GPS not available. It happens, often enough to check for it... You have never seen these over Nevada, etc? Military jamming the GPS signals..
 
AggieMike88 said:
There is a good iPad app to practice VOR intercepts, tracking DME arcs, and other tasks involving VORs. Ron Levy showed it too me during my IFR training with him and I still use it this day to help visualize and practice these tasks...

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/nav-trainer-instrument-navigation/id427480051?mt=8

Very worth the $4.99 cost.

Starting to use it with no background as the OP has might be a small challenge. But if he shows it to his CFI and they use that to learn and practice the concepts/techniques, the app will serve him well.
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I have that app; got it free. No idea what more it does if I give them 5 bucks.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Yes I still use it. Yes I use it in normal operation. While IFR I use it mainly for instrument approaches.



Just had a total GPS failure the other day. Had to fly off the INS system.
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awwwww that's too bad. not.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I have that app; got it free. No idea what more it does if I give them 5 bucks.
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Author originally built it many years ago in Java, you can find it online and download it to your computer, but not the iPad app. Seach for Tim's Air Navigation simulator
 
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I use VORs. One time the GPS failed in a club plane that I was flying. VOR saved my bacon getting unlost and safely home. Plus if you ever go for instrument rating, you will need to know it. Also, most of the old planes for sale don't have a GPS and if you want a plane that doesn't cost a fortune you can use the ancient avionics rather than buying a much more expensive plane or spending 50k on an avionics upgrade. I recommend Dan Dyer flash cards for learning VOR they really helped me when I was learning to fly the CDI needle with VOR.
 
CTLSi said:
GPS is not going to flake on you, that's the little story the old timers tell to make themselves feel good about resisting new tech..
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My 530W did go out on me. Turns out it was a bad card. Fortunately, I was only 40 or so miles from home, but I used a couple local VOR/DME to verify my pilotage/heading on the way home.

I got a kick out the girl at the desk where I landed to check out why the GPS quit. "Will you be able to get home without your GPS?" I laughed thinking she was joking with me. She wasn't. The line guy just rolled his eyes.

Like a few have mentioned, I use them on cross country trips just to keep it fresh. Never know when you'll need them.
 
I don't care whether the gps signal will or will not go bad in my lifetime - that is not the issue
The issue is competence. The ability to plan and fly a track across the ground - including the calculations for deviation, variation, wind, and finding checkpoints - are required in the PTS. If you have 500 hours and you can't do it - were I an Inspector - you need to take a 709 ride.
 
My friend borrowed my plane, and I forgot to tell him that I took the data card out of the GPS to update it. He had to fly to the destination airport using the VOR.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
When you're flying over the Atlantic...it is bad. You must not know how an INS system works
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The downside of the internet. I was referring to the fact that you have INS, which is a great system assuming it was initialized at the beginning.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
When you're flying over the Atlantic...it is bad. You must not know how an INS system works
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My uncle was an INS officer. He said he enjoyed the work:D. It took him to many foreign lands, taking people back home.
 
I'm always skeptical about anyone who says that there is something that you don't need to know about whether it's in aviation or anything else in life. Never trust some numbskull who discourages learning about something. You never know when that something is all you've got to help you in some way.
 
murphey said:
Same for DEN.

We keep,talking about the VORs as an independent system, but aren't the ILS approaches part of the same system? Is WAAS good enough to substitute for ILS?
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They both have a da of 200ish

However and ILS is a percision approach and an LPV is still considered a percision LIKE approach. Most companies will not allow you to fly a coupled approach down as low on an LPV as an ILS.
 
James331 said:
They both have a da of 200ish

However and ILS is a percision approach and an LPV is still considered a percision LIKE approach. Most companies will not allow you to fly a coupled approach down as low on an LPV as an ILS.
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LPV approaches are still considered non-precision I think even though some of them have DA's at 200 ft.
 
Bob T said:
I'm always skeptical about anyone who says that there is something that you don't need to know about whether it's in aviation or anything else in life. Never trust some numbskull who discourages learning about something. You never know when that something is all you've got to help you in some way.
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Do you still have a rotory phone? A buggy whip? A typewriter? Carbon paper? Dwell meter? Block Buster Video membership? Floopy drive? Cassette tapes? VCR? Beta? Bias tires? Lead in car gas?

All of these things could help you in some way. . :dunno: :rolleyes:
 
Where is the VOR in the middle of the Pacific and Atlantic? I can't find it on any sectional.
 
Geico266 said:
Do you still have a rotory phone? A buggy whip? A typewriter? Carbon paper? Dwell meter? Block Buster Video membership? Floopy drive? Cassette tapes? VCR? Beta? Bias tires? Lead in car gas?

All of these things could help you in some way. . :dunno: :rolleyes:
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The rotary phone is in the closet - forced to go touch-tone to use the network. The typewriter is on the table, waiting to be packed up for eBay. It's a classic dating back to the 1930s. Still have floppy drives for both the Mac & Windows boxes, never know when they'll come in handy (and they have in recent past). Lots of cassettes & VCR tapes - haven't had a chance to convert them.

NASA has thousands of mag tapes with unbelievable amount of data on them, that can no longer be read because the tape drives have broken and no repairs possible. So the data, some going back 50 years, is lost.
 
CTLSi said:
GPS is not going to flake on you, that's the little story the old timers tell to make themselves feel good about resisting new tech..
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I'm an "old timer" that flies an Airbus (319/320) with some of the latest and greatest tech out there. You are very wrong about GPS. Even in the Airbus we occasionally get "GPS PRIMARY LOST" displayed on the PFD and ND. In the Airbus manuals (FCOM and FCTM) it discusses in detail about what the airplane will do and what the crew should do when GPS is lost.

CTLSi said:
GPS is fantastic, efficient, and fast. Navcom is crude, wasteful, and absurd considering what GPS can do.
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The best aviators know how to use their equipment and also how to plan for a back up. Redundancy is a good thing.
 
murphey said:
The downside of the internet. I was referring to the fact that you have INS, which is a great system assuming it was initialized at the beginning.
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I guess you haven't heard of integration drift
 
My feeling is that, if the VOR system is operational and you have a receiver in your airplane, then you should know how to use it and use it competently. I think you should know how to use every system in the airplane you are flying. End of story, at least for me.
 
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