Your school's/instructor's requirements to solo

The OP and I are corresponding off-line, and after reviewing the letter and medical certificate, I think someone's steering him wrong about needing the SMFT before solo. I've advised him to take the papers to the FSDO, and if they still say the SMFT is required before solo, to have them call OKC for positive confirmation.
 
Ron Levy said:
The OP and I are corresponding off-line, and after reviewing the letter and medical certificate, I think someone's steering him wrong about needing the SMFT before solo. I've advised him to take the papers to the FSDO, and if they still say the SMFT is required before solo, to have them call OKC for positive confirmation.
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I had the same thought, they wouldn't issue the Student Pilot Cert if they didn't intend for him to solo.
 
Ron Levy said:
The OP and I are corresponding off-line, and after reviewing the letter and medical certificate, I think someone's steering him wrong about needing the SMFT before solo. I've advised him to take the papers to the FSDO, and if they still say the SMFT is required before solo, to have them call OKC for positive confirmation.
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Thanks again for looking into it.

That "someone" who you mentioned is the FSDO Inspector who will be giving me the SMFT. He's the one who told me that I cannot solo without passing the SMFT. I don't really want to piiss him off by suggesting or implying that he's wrong in what he's telling me.
 
UPDATE

Cap'n Ron you inspired me to look more into this to get a clear answer. I called FAA Medical Div in OKC and the guy was clueless. He kept telling me that if a student pilot wants to fly solo, he needs a pilot certificate. I asked if he knew that before any student goes for a checkride, they must fly solo. He said it might depend on the school's rules about that. I just said thanks and hung up, no need to waste any more time on him. :mad2:

Then I remembered that I had the phone number of the Eastern Region Deputy Flight Surgeon who I met and spoke to at a WINGS seminar a few weeks ago. I just called him, he remembered me. He told me that up to about 4 years ago, a pilot who had a known medical issue could fly solo as long as he had that student certificate. But they reviewed that policy and determined that it was not logical. They are working on re-writing the letters and these medicals to explicitly state that solo-ing is not allowed on the medical "for student purposes". How do you allow a student pilot with a known medical defect/issue to fly solo before he demonstrates the ability to fly safely? That makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

My SODA expires mid-September, so I will be requesting an extension since I just lost my instructor, so I'll need to catch up with the new guy. I'm sending a letter to him requesting the extension. I will request an extra month or two just in case, even though I'm very close to being ready.
 
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Handing a student pilot a 'student pilot only' certificate with no allowance to solo makes zero sense since it's completely unnecessary and serves no function since you need nothing for dual.
 
James331 said:
Actually it does.

The more often you fly the more you will retain and the faster you will progress. You draw 50hrs of flight training out over nearly a entire year, its going to be one step forwards, half a step back, then one and a half steps needed to get to the next step.

This ain't my first rodeo, if this was my student I would have advised him that he's going to be burning a bit of time and money by starting training before he can commit to a good amount of flights per week. I would have had a talk and probably stepped down as his instructor before I took him for 50hrs of dual without even a solo.
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Agree 100%. Flying only once per week is a recipe for failure. You're trying to build muscle memory, and that takes repetition.

My wife, our son, and I aimed for flying THREE times per week, and actually achieved two. By doing it this way, we all finished up in 3 - 4 months, or about a semester of college.
 
orange said:
You do a T&G every 6 minutes? That must be one tight pattern.

I do one about every 15 minutes, I do 4-5 mile finals almost each time.
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Huh? 4-5 mile finals doing pattern work?
 
jordane93 said:
At FRG it's not uncommon to hear, "Cessna 12345 extend downwind, I'll call your base." It's a busy airport with lots of student activity.
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Haha, yep. And lots of corp jets, helicopters, and an occasional 737.
 
Flew today with my new instructor. Unlike the previous one, this one is an early riser, so we went out at 7:30. Nobody flying, pretty cool. Did 6 T&G's in the first hour and then went to the practice area and did some manuever work.

I think I'm going to be flying early like this all the time, less time wasted extending downwind or holding short.
 
Henning said:
This is normal at most schools, especially 141 schools where the instructor today was the pre solo student last year with their eye on an airline job when they signed up.
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Mine would quit today if he had a job available. I've even been helping him try to find jobs or at least some side gigs. I just want to finish up before he leaves. At this point I wouldn't really need to transition to another CFI since I'm done. Anymore flying I do will mostly be soloing and mock dpe flights.
 
orange said:
Then I remembered that I had the phone number of the Eastern Region Deputy Flight Surgeon
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You talked to the wrong person - this is a pilot certification issue, ot a medical issue. The people who are in charge of the relevant rules (Part 61) are AFS-810 at FAA HQ in DC. That's who that FSDO Inspector should be asking. Now, maybe AFS-810 is changing the rules on this, but the regs as written and your Student Pilot/Medical certificate as written allow solo once your instructor endorses it for solo regardless of whether you've done that SMFT or not. Otherwise, there's no point in issuing it in the first place.

I'll give a call on Monday to someone I know at HQ to see what the story is and where the guidance is written.
 
This was the interpretation from my instructor and the FSDO, also with my monocular vision.
If you can't solo what is the point of the certificate. After the SMFT I was issued a new medical certificate / student pilot certificate.
 
I used a 172 out of the FBO in KGOK (Guthrie) Oklahoma and a 3rd party CFI I know who also teaches out at Oklahoma State. I started this back on April 1st and did my pattern solo July 1st with 14.6 hours logged. After that I started working in a new CFI for some type of stage checks and did my practice area Solo in a 152 August 10th with 19 hours logged.

Before my first solo I did a take home quiz and then talked about anything I was 100% on. 2nd Solo was in a new plane and just had to fly with the CFI a few times.

I'm not sure if flying in spurts like I do has had a negative impact on my training. When I'm not flying I'm studying for the written/oral. I'm also a pretty big fan of flight simulator games and spent 5 hours doing pattern and landing work on the computer with a yoke and pedals. That I think helped me the most with getting my flare down.
 
I bought a new aircraft after five hours in the air. After that, I didn't care how much I flew...the cost dropped by 2/3rds per lesson. Most of my logged hours were solo before I took the checkride. By that time, I was way overkill...the DPE had me doing stuff not seen on checkrides because my flying skills were so honed. Like flying under hood for half of it, doing pilotage for the other half. Doing slow turn stalls and a full power off emergency landing.
 
CTLSi said:
I bought a new aircraft after five hours in the air. After that, I didn't care how much I flew...the cost dropped by 2/3rds per lesson. Most of my logged hours were solo before I took the checkride. By that time, I was way overkill...the DPE had me doing stuff not seen on checkrides because my flying skills were so honed. Like flying under hood for half of it, doing pilotage for the other half. Doing slow turn stalls and a full power off emergency landing.
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Just for clarity, the DPE asked you to do tasks outside the PTS on your check ride?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ron Levy said:
Thanks for the reminder. Working on it.
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AFS-810 said on the phone this doesn't make sense (Student Pilot privileges do include solo IAW 61.87), but they asked for an email to be able to research fully and reply in writing.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Agree 100%. Flying only once per week is a recipe for failure. You're trying to build muscle memory, and that takes repetition.

My wife, our son, and I aimed for flying THREE times per week, and actually achieved two. By doing it this way, we all finished up in 3 - 4 months, or about a semester of college.
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Flying once per week is no different than twice or three times a week. You aren't learning to dance ballet.
 
mikeinbama said:
Just for clarity, the DPE asked you to do tasks outside the PTS on your check ride?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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He asked me to fly to PTS standards. But how often do you see a 2 hour checkride with most of the flying under the hood? And all the flying portion, including the cross country part by pilotage only?
 
CTLSi said:
Flying once per week is no different than twice or three times a week. You aren't learning to dance ballet.
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Actually it's quite similar with regard to repetition between lessons.

So CTLSi, are you a CFI?
 
aviator430 said:
Out of curiosity, what is the time span in which you obtained those 50 hours? 3 months? 1 year? 2 years?
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DFH65 said:
That seems excessive to me unless there is more to the story or the vision issue is a huge factor.

I just pulled out the logbook and 1/5/89 I soloed on my 9th lesson with 9.6 hours. I had 26 landings at that point. Check ride at 59 hours with the last 10-20 of that being test prep.

Interestingly on 6/7/2014 after a 20 year break and 6.8 hours and 22 landings I got my BFR signed off and was turned loose on the world again.

Not bragging, I am no expert high hour pilot. I only have 125ish hours total and 380 landings in the book and I have made plenty of not so pretty landings but I am struggling to grasp 50 hours and not having soloed it just seems to me you are getting strung along. At 50 hours you should be starting to get close to ready for your check ride at least that is how it was back in the day.

I would find and independent instructor not associated with the school and take a flight with them, explain the whole situation and ask for an honest evaluation of where you are.
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My question too. 50 hrs is way too much for a typical student. So what, in your case, is especially atypical?

I soled and got checked out in almost the exact same times as DFH65 (mine in 1996 with a Part 61 school). I know the Jeppesen syllabus has a way of making every step of a ticket or rating excessively formal, which I guess makes insurance companies happy. But 50 hrs to solo is certainly slower than average for pilots. So I'm wondering if there is more to your story that would explain it.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Agree 100%. Flying only once per week is a recipe for failure. You're trying to build muscle memory, and that takes repetition.

My wife, our son, and I aimed for flying THREE times per week, and actually achieved two. By doing it this way, we all finished up in 3 - 4 months, or about a semester of college.
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I disagree that it is a recipe for failure, and almost certainly not the cause of the OP's delays, but I agree that flying more often is desirable if possible.

I have done it both ways. I flew when I had the time and money during my private and passed it in 56 hours total flight time over the course of 1.5 years. I soloed somewhere between 9 and 10 hours.

For my instrument, I flew as often as I possibly could (3 to 4 times a week) and banged that sucker out in 40.0 hours over 2 months. I had read that instrument skills are the most perishable and I now agree.

It's not a recipe for *failure* but it does slow you down a little since there is some skill slippage that must be undone. But undoing that slippage for a given skill is not the same as starting back from zero. It's just knocking off a little rust.
 
Ron Levy said:
AFS-810 said on the phone this doesn't make sense (Student Pilot privileges do include solo IAW 61.87), but they asked for an email to be able to research fully and reply in writing.
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This is confirmed by Allan Kash in AFS-810 (allan.g.kash@faa.gov or (202) 385-9600). A limitation of "Student Pilot privileges only" is essentially a "no passengers" limitation, not a "no PIC" or "no solo" limitation -- you can exercise any privilege of a Student Pilot including solo as authorized by your instructor per 61.87 and 61.93. Have the Inspector telling you that you cannot solo contact Mr. Kash for confirmation.

The process should be for you to continue your training including solo flights under your instructor's supervision and approval. When you get ready for the practical test, you have two choices:

  1. Take the practical test with a DPE (the "no passengers" limitation is waived for the practical test by 61.47(c)) and then take the SMFT with an Inspector at the FSDO.
  2. Take a combined SMFT and PP practical test with an Inspector at the FSDO.
Remember that you will not be allowed to carry passengers until both tests are complete and a new medical and SODA are issued, so if you do option 1, between the two tests, you'll be allowed to fly solo or with an instructor, but that's it.
 
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