Your school's/instructor's requirements to solo

[poadeleted20]

Judgment.

If the student is soloing on a 7000 foot runway, it's good if he can make a landing within 400 feet of the numbers, but he'll be safe enough if it's 4000 feet.

Not good enough for me -- not even close to good enough. I'll stick with the PTS over that sort of sloppiness. In any event, the OP dis not say PTS standards were the standard for landings, just for slow flight, steep turns, and stalls.

But beyond that, I don't like the idea of subjective standards in this context. How do you decide what's good enough for any particular trainee without having a justifiable standard for all?

 

[kenjr]

That seems like a lot of hours even for flying once a week.

Mine was at 18 hours which was basically 9 flights. I think I had around 120 landings by the time I solo'd and had spent a ton of time in the pattern, landings with all flap configurations, lots of emergency landings with power getting pulled at random spots in the pattern and full proficiency of all the manuvers. In fact, I should have solo'd a bit earlier buy my primary CFI went on vacation so I had to go out to the practice area and show the CFI that was going to sign me off on the solo that I could do all of them.

I had a short written test - probably two pages or so. It wasn't rocket science but if you were keeping up with the bookwork it was a no brainer.

Good luck - hope you get to it soon!

 

[poadeleted20]

That seems like a lot of hours even for flying once a week.

Eleven months is about 48 weeks. With 50 hours, that's one 1-hour flight a week, and a one-hour flight usually includes about 15 minutes or more of start, taxi out, taxi in, and shutdown. That's not a lot of actual working time. Do that once a week, and it's like one step forward, half a step back every week. Not a good way to make progress in the pre-solo phase.

 

[CTLSi]

That seems like a lot of hours even for flying once a week.

Mine was at 18 hours which was basically 9 flights. I think I had around 120 landings by the time I solo'd and had spent a ton of time in the pattern, landings with all flap configurations, lots of emergency landings with power getting pulled at random spots in the pattern and full proficiency of all the manuvers. In fact, I should have solo'd a bit earlier buy my primary CFI went on vacation so I had to go out to the practice area and show the CFI that was going to sign me off on the solo that I could do all of them.

I had a short written test - probably two pages or so. It wasn't rocket science but if you were keeping up with the bookwork it was a no brainer.

Good luck - hope you get to it soon!

You did over 12 landings per flight? That's a lot of work.

 

[orange]

Eleven months is about 48 weeks. With 50 hours, that's one 1-hour flight a week, and a one-hour flight usually includes about 15 minutes or more of start, taxi out, taxi in, and shutdown. That's not a lot of actual working time. Do that once a week, and it's like one step forward, half a step back every week. Not a good way to make progress in the pre-solo phase.

I think I have 34 flights, give or take one or two. I have skipped a few weeks for bad weather over the winter and I missed a couple of flights due to family stuff. My flights are usually about 1.5 hours. I do hear your comments about frequency of flying, so last week I started flying twice a week. Today, we canceled due to weather.

One of the problems is that I train at KFRG which is very busy on Saturdays, so it's usually a wait for takeoff and then getting extended on downwind 4-6 miles. I was #7 to land a few weeks ago. We have been going to other airports but the travel there and back cuts into my time too.

I recently talked to 2 guys who passed their checkorides not long ago, who also fly of of Republic, both from different schools, and one took his checkride at 85 hours and the other just over 100.

Again, I'm not concerned about the time I'll get there soon.

As for my vision, I'm not blind in one eye. I have slightly less than standard vision in one eye (it tests as good as 20/60, but usually is a little worse). I can see out of it but it's not clear. It's like looking through a dirty window. I have cornea damage so it's not correctable to 20/20.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[MAKG1]

It doesn't need to be correctible to 20/20 for Class 3. That's Class 2, which you won't be needing for a bit.

It's 20/40.

 

[NotEnough]

I needed to take a Medical Flight Test to obtain a SODA for monocular vision. I soloed way before I took the MFT. My instructor let me know that he soloed me earlier most of his students.

Please pm me if there are any questions I can answer regarding the process if you would like.

 

[NotEnough]

I took my training out of BDR.

After you get your SODA they will never test the bad eye again. You don't want to squeak the bad eye through then have to worry about it every medical after that.

I would be more than happy to let you know what you can expect.

 

[James331]

You did over 12 landings per flight? That's a lot of work.

Pre-solo pattern work is one t&g per .1 hobbs.

It wasn't uncommon for me to do 13-17 per flght.

 

[orange]

Pre-solo pattern work is one t&g per .1 hobbs.

It wasn't uncommon for me to do 13-17 per flght.

You do a T&G every 6 minutes? That must be one tight pattern.

I do one about every 15 minutes, I do 4-5 mile finals almost each time.

 

[eetrojan]

...I do 4-5 mile finals almost each time.

How come?

 

[Henning]

What are the requirements your school or instructor has to allow you to solo?

I have read many of you saying that one day your CFI just said you're ready to solo. Or others who have solo'ed in inder 10 hours.

I have over 50 and not yet solo'ed. It took me a long time to get landings down and I didn't do a lot of pattern work in the first 20-25 hours. With my first instructor (he left the school) we did a lot of manuever work. Another reason is that I must must first do a SODA (vison issue in one eye) with the FAA, so I have to practice for that because it's very specific as to what they will be looking for. I will be taking it soon.

My school requires another CFI to stage check me before I can solo. They require almost like a mini checkride to solo.

Here are the stage check requirements:

Oral


a. Aeronautical knowledge

1. Bernoulli/Newton
2. Aircraft control surfaces
3. Aircraft systems
4. VFR wetaher minimums
5. Airport markings
6. Aircraft inspections
7. Ceryificates and Documents

b. Arrival & Departure procedures
c. Airspace & sectional

Flight portion
d. Pre-flight
e. Radio comms
f. Checklist use
g. Taxi, take-off, landing (use of power, cross-wind corr, airspeed control, pitch control, etc)
h. Flight manuevers (power/pitch coordination)
i. Slow Flight-PTS proficiency
j. Steep turns-PTS proficiency
k. Departure stalls-PTS proficiency
l. Landing stalls-PTS proficiency
m. Emergency procedures
n. General Flight Operations


Is this typical or are you guys experiencing less formality when it comes to soloing?

Thanks.

Sounds about right, you should be able to show some level of knowledge and proficiency in all those areas before solo.

 

[Henning]

You do a T&G every 6 minutes? That must be one tight pattern.

I do one about every 15 minutes, I do 4-5 mile finals almost each time.

6 minutes makes for 10 an hour, that was pretty typical at LGB when I trained.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think I have 34 flights, give or take one or two. I have skipped a few weeks for bad weather over the winter and I missed a couple of flights due to family stuff. My flights are usually about 1.5 hours. I do hear your comments about frequency of flying, so last week I started flying twice a week.

Great!

Today, we canceled due to weather.

One of the problems is that I train at KFRG which is very busy on Saturdays, so it's usually a wait for takeoff and then getting extended on downwind 4-6 miles. I was #7 to land a few weeks ago. We have been going to other airports but the travel there and back cuts into my time too.

That's just making things worse -- you get even less training per flight hour.

I recently talked to 2 guys who passed their checkorides not long ago, who also fly of of Republic, both from different schools, and one took his checkride at 85 hours and the other just over 100.

At that field (where I soloed in 1969 and to which I've been flying often ever since), I can see that happening. However, they probably have a lot less real training and experience getting 85-100 hours there than if they were flying out of Boondock Municipal Airport somewhere in Iowa. That's just another of those factors which makes comparisons of hours to solo/license "odorous" (to quote the Bard).

Again, I'm not concerned about the time I'll get there soon.

As for my vision, I'm not blind in one eye. I have slightly less than standard vision in one eye (it tests as good as 20/60, but usually is a little worse). I can see out of it but it's not clear. It's like looking through a dirty window. I have cornea damage so it's not correctable to 20/20.

That is still considered monocular vision, and I'm guessing that's why the FAA wants the SMFT before issuing your medical rather than the usual practice of issuing a "Student Pilot only" medical and letting your instructor make the solo call. Right now, I'd recommend focusing on prepping for that SMFT, because that's currently the biggest barrier to solo, and realize that it requires things beyond what 61.87 requires for solo.

 

[jordane93]

I also fly out of FRG. What school are you at?

 

[GCA319]

That is pretty thorough. Especially some of the oral requirements.

 

[Henning]

That is pretty thorough. Especially some of the oral requirements.

It sounds like a 141 school which has a syllabus that follows tight FAA guides that had to be approved and followed. I don't think he is supposed to have PP mastery of those subjects yet, but they all should be introduced in their broader application by solo time.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Wrong. This is not about the regulations. This is about the CFI SUBJECTIVE opinion that a student is safe to solo. That is why it varies, as well it should vary.

This is not a race. somehow some are getting the wrong impression that training is some kind of race and that the first to solo and complete training are strangely an indication of being better pilots. that's hogwash and a dangerous assumption.

Regulations cover that too.

61.87(c)(2) -Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

I'm not saying it shouldn't vary. I'm saying WHY it varies is the students learning curve, how well the instructor can change his teaching style to fit an individual student, and what type of solo "bar" the instructor is setting. While one instructor may think a student is safe to solo, another instructor at the same school may not think he is cause he expects the student to grease every landing.

You do a T&G every 6 minutes? That must be one tight pattern.

I do one about every 15 minutes, I do 4-5 mile finals almost each time.

I do 15 minute patterns and 4-5 mile finals...in a DC-10. I think we found out where the extra time is coming from. Unless you are at a towered field with a lot of traffic, that is WAY too big.

 

[Owad1971]

You do a T&G every 6 minutes? That must be one tight pattern.

I do one about every 15 minutes, I do 4-5 mile finals almost each time.

Aaahhhh KFRG on a good weather weekend

May I recommend (if your CFI is flexible) starting your lessons at 6am. You will get more pattern work done per hour.

 

[James331]

You do a T&G every 6 minutes? That must be one tight pattern.

I do one about every 15 minutes, I do 4-5 mile finals almost each time.

No, just a standard pattern

 

[jordane93]

Aaahhhh KFRG on a good weather weekend

May I recommend (if your CFI is flexible) starting your lessons at 6am. You will get more pattern work done per hour.

BDR is a quick flight and not too busy. I did a lot of touch and go's there during training

 

[orange]

How come?

I'm training at the 3rd busiest airport in NY behind, JFK and LGA. Lots of traffic (mostly GA, but lots of corp jets, and occasional 737 (charter).

 

[orange]

Aaahhhh KFRG on a good weather weekend

May I recommend (if your CFI is flexible) starting your lessons at 6am. You will get more pattern work done per hour.

Yep, that's Republic on a nice weekend day.

My CFI is not that flexible, I don't think he's an early riser type. Plus, we both live 25-30 miles away.

 

[orange]

BDR is a quick flight and not too busy. I did a lot of touch and go's there during training

Yeah, the past few weeks we have gone to BDR to do work on landings. But getting there and back kills about 30 minutes of training time.

 

[orange]

I also fly out of FRG. What school are you at?

Ventura.

 

[orange]

That is still considered monocular vision, and I'm guessing that's why the FAA wants the SMFT before issuing your medical rather than the usual practice of issuing a "Student Pilot only" medical and letting your instructor make the solo call. Right now, I'd recommend focusing on prepping for that SMFT, because that's currently the biggest barrier to solo, and realize that it requires things beyond what 61.87 requires for solo.

They did issue me a "Student Pilot Only" certificate when they sent me the letter telling me that I have to do a SODA. I have to do it before I solo.

Last May, I went to an AME and passed and was given my 3rd class medical. I was a little surprised that he passed me but I wasn't going to argue. So I took ground school in June and then afterwards started flight training in August. Then in October, I got a letter from FAA (OKC) stating that they "cannot approve my 3rd class medical at this time" and asked for medical records. I sent them and a couple months later, they asked me to do a field of vision test which I passed (doctor said it was normal). A few more months later (mid-March), they sent me a letter stating that I will need to pass the SMFT in order to get my 3rd class medical. They included a "Student Pilot Only" medical to use for training. The SODA is good for 6 months, expires mid-Sept, so I have about 5 more weeks to get it done.

I'm not overly concerned with the SODA, the requirements (listed in a post above) are not too tough. I think I should have no problem with it, if I can land the plane. Really, my landings have gotten 80% better since I took the advice of some members from another thread I asked on, I just need to get more consistent. I'll do 5 good ones and then a bad one (bad habits hard to break--flare too early or too late).

 

[orange]

To add insult to injury, I got blindsided with news today. My school called me to change my next flight to a different instructor. Seems that mine has quit. He took an airline job. Funny, we spoke yesterday and he didn't mention a thing.

So, I must look for instructor #3. Instructor #1 also quit and took an airline job about 3 months into my training.

Just bad luck or is somebody trying to tell me something about flying?

 

[jordane93]

Ventura.

To add insult to injury, I got blindsided with news today. Seems that my instructor has quit. He took an airline job. Funny, we spoke yesterday and he didn't mention a thing.

So, I must look for instructor #3. Instructor #1 also quit and took an airline job about 3 months into my training.

Just bad luck or is somebody trying to tell me something about flying?

Maybe try a different flight school?

 

[Henning]

To add insult to injury, I got blindsided with news today. Seems that my instructor has quit. He took an airline job. Funny, we spoke yesterday and he didn't mention a thing.

So, I must look for instructor #3. Instructor #1 also quit and took an airline job about 3 months into my training.

Just bad luck or is somebody trying to tell me something about flying?

This is normal at most schools, especially 141 schools where the instructor today was the pre solo student last year with their eye on an airline job when they signed up.

 

[MAKG1]

Just bad luck or is somebody trying to tell me something about flying?

It has absolutely, positively, nothing to do with you at all.

That your instructor might be transitory and low time might explain a few things. Like being gun-shy for solo.

If your school has that much turnover, I might suggest a different one. It may be bad luck, but my experience in a Part 61 "flying club" was that in the three years I've been a member, a couple of new instructors have come in and none have left. I still see all the same faces.

 

[poadeleted20]

They did issue me a "Student Pilot Only" certificate when they sent me the letter telling me that I have to do a SODA. I have to do it before I solo.

I think perhaps someone made a mistake -- either whoever wrote that letter or whoever is helping you interpret it. By the book, either a medical certificate is issued with a "Student Pilot only" limitation, in which case solo is authorized but not Private privileges after the practical test, or you don't get a medical until you pass the SMFT (either immediately after the PP practical test with a DPE or in conjunction with a PP practical test administered by an FAA Inspector). If you really got a "Student Pilot only" medical, I'd really like to see the letter which says you have to do the SMFT before solo but does not revoke that medical certificate.

Last May, I went to an AME and passed and was given my 3rd class medical. I was a little surprised that he passed me but I wasn't going to argue. So I took ground school in June and then afterwards started flight training in August. Then in October, I got a letter from FAA (OKC) stating that they "cannot approve my 3rd class medical at this time" and asked for medical records. I sent them and a couple months later, they asked me to do a field of vision test which I passed (doctor said it was normal). A few more months later (mid-March), they sent me a letter stating that I will need to pass the SMFT in order to get my 3rd class medical. They included a "Student Pilot Only" medical to use for training. The SODA is good for 6 months, expires mid-Sept, so I have about 5 more weeks to get it done.

Again, I think someone is misinterpreting things. Once your instructor signs you off IAW 61.87, you can solo on that combination "Student Pilot only" Third Class medical and Student Pilot certificate. There is simply no practical purpose in issuing a Student Pilot certificate without a Medical Certificate, and I know of nothing the FAA rules which covers doing that (other than for someone training for glider, balloon, or Sport Pilot, and that's not your case).

I suggest you and your instructor together take your certificate and letter to the FSDO to find out exactly what you are authorized to do, because I think you're probably OK to solo and even take the PP practical test with a DPE with the paper you have. The only caveat is that if you do that, you'll have to the SMFT with an FAA Inspector before you exercise any PP privileges.

 

[orange]

It has absolutely, positively, nothing to do with you at all.

I know, I was kidding, it's just my luck. It won't delay me all that much though.

 

[James331]

This is normal at most schools, especially 141 schools where the instructor today was the pre solo student last year with their eye on an airline job when they signed up.

It's common with crap schools and crap CFIs, guessing that CFI ain't getting too far in aviation.

When I take a job I always tell the company the bare minimum of how long I'll be staying and keep true to that.

When I instruct, which I now do on the side, I will tell my students of anything coming up, I also won't take on a student if I know I can't finish him up. Add to that I finish my current guys up before I leave.

That's called character, it amazes me how many people just go around burning folks and think they'll have a successful career, especially in aviation

From what you've posted your school sound like a joke, I'd take my time and money elsewhere if I were you.

 

[Henning]

It's common with crap schools and crap CFIs, guessing that CFI ain't getting too far in aviation.

When I take a job I always tell the company the bare minimum of how long I'll be staying and keep true to that.

When I instruct, which I now do on the side, I will tell my students of anything coming up, I also won't take on a student if I know I can't finish him up. Add to that I finish my current guys up before I leave.

That's called character, it amazes me how many people just go around burning folks and think they'll have a successful career, especially in aviation

From what you've posted your school sound like a joke, I'd take my time and money elsewhere if I were you.

Well, perhaps he should, of course that doesn't guarantee it won't happen there as well. CFI and Flight Schools are about funneling non pilots into the airlines, that is the primary function of the system. You have to expect that CFIs will leave within a few months moving up the food chain as it is the primary entry level position. Whether this is right or wrong, I'm not arguing it right, in fact I've always said that CFI should be a 1500hr position, just that that's the reality of the industry, it's not geared toward the middle aged or non airline bound GA aspirant. That said he may find an independent instructor who is.

I don't know what all the fuss is about changing instructors anyway, that is an advantage of the 141 programs, you're on a dedicated syllabus that all the instructors follow, so there is no continuity lost, and you don't have to sit on the ground because "your" instructor is unavailable. I learned Pt. 61 but at a busy operation with 8 instructors and a score of planes available. I flew with all the instructors at some point (they all had something to offer the others didn't) and all the planes except the twins (did get some BE-18 time back and forth from the island though, so add one more instructor as well), and I made it right on 40 hrs, I also made it within 3 months flying at least 4 flights a week over 2 days and studying at work the rest of the week.

Instructors don't really teach you how to fly, you teach yourself. The instructor can only provide guidance and salvation of errors gone too wrong. Students need to put in the time and effort to learn. Whether the student wants to burn through that time and effort in 2 weeks or 2 years is up to them, but you can't expect the cadre of CFIs to commit to finishing a student that can't, for whatever reason, finish in 3 months, because that's the time frame the flight instruction industry is built around.

If you are a 'non standard' student, ie not looking for an aviation career, or one in GA, then yes you should likely find a 'non standard' instructor that more closely meets your needs.

 

[James331]

Well, perhaps he should, of course that doesn't guarantee it won't happen there as well. CFI and Flight Schools are about funneling non pilots into the airlines, that is the primary function of the system. You have to expect that CFIs will leave within a few months moving up the food chain as it is the primary entry level position. Whether this is right or wrong, I'm not arguing it right, in fact I've always said that CFI should be a 1500hr position, just that that's the reality of the industry, it's not geared toward the middle aged or non airline bound GA aspirant. That said he may find an independent instructor who is.

I don't know what all the fuss is about changing instructors anyway, that is an advantage of the 141 programs, you're on a dedicated syllabus that all the instructors follow, so there is no continuity lost, and you don't have to sit on the ground because "your" instructor is unavailable. I learned Pt. 61 but at a busy operation with 8 instructors and a score of planes available. I flew with all the instructors at some point (they all had something to offer the others didn't) and all the planes except the twins (did get some BE-18 time back and forth from the island though, so add one more instructor as well), and I made it right on 40 hrs, I also made it within 3 months flying at least 4 flights a week over 2 days and studying at work the rest of the week.

Instructors don't really teach you how to fly, you teach yourself. The instructor can only provide guidance and salvation of errors gone too wrong. Students need to put in the time and effort to learn. Whether the student wants to burn through that time and effort in 2 weeks or 2 years is up to them, but you can't expect the cadre of CFIs to commit to finishing a student that can't, for whatever reason, finish in 3 months, because that's the time frame the flight instruction industry is built around.

If you are a 'non standard' student, ie not looking for an aviation career, or one in GA, then yes you should likely find a 'non standard' instructor that more closely meets your needs.

Part 141/61 is irrelivent if your CFI sucks, 141 doesn't have any magic by being more structured, you have crap CFIs it's going to burn time and money. You're fooling yourself if you think 141 makes you immune to poor instruction.

I'd vote to find a freelance guy who already has his hours and CFIs on the side.

 

[Henning]

Part 141/61 is irrelivent if your CFI sucks, 141 doesn't have any magic by being more structured, you have crap CFIs it's going to burn time and money. You're fooling yourself if you think 141 makes you immune to poor instruction.

I'd vote to find a freelance guy who already has his hours and CFIs on the side.

Where did I say anything about quality of instruction? The topic was instructor turnover. The 141 system is built around maintaining training continuity across instructors. Quality instruction you aren't likely to find anywhere anymore, you have to hunt it down.

 

[James331]

Where did I say anything about quality of instruction? The topic was instructor turnover. The 141 system is built around maintaining training continuity across instructors. Quality instruction you aren't likely to find anywhere anymore, you have to hunt it down.

In theory thats great, but realistically it doesnt quite work that way, if youre bouncing between instructors your goin to be blowing time and money, even at a 141.

This is especially true pre solo, I could care less what phase checks and boxes have been checked, if I haven't flown with you before, or frequently, I'm going to have you go through all the motions and prove to me you're ready before i put my numbers and signature to paper, and having to prove to all these people that you're ready is a waste.

That's all I was trying to get across there

 

[Henning]

My experience bouncing between instructors and planes was opposite, I managed to get done on schedule and in 40 hrs because I never had to cancel a flight due to no instructor or airplane. There was always an instructor on the couch and a plane on the ramp to use. I had a list of the requirements checked and blank as well as what I still wanted to improve and I'd tell whichever instructor what I wanted to accomplish on that flight, and they would see what was unfinished on the list, and we'd come up with a game plan for the flight to get it all accomplished. This was not unusual where I trained.

 

[nosehair]

The thing about 141 schools is that the syllabus is based on a "normal" learning curve.
If you don't fall into the "normal" learning ability, which can be very individual and unique in the first learning hours of training, you may feel left behind.

That's where part 61 training is at it's best. Individual One-on-one moments of training with no expectations of achievement at certain hour levels.

141 schools can do that. But instructors and students are expected to progress at the pace of the syllabus.
That is not a 141 requirement, as the individual instructor can stretch out the lessons as needed, like part 61, but the peer pressure to achieve solo prior to full readiness, is very hard to ignore. ...as well as the checkrides that follow. They are expected to occur in the hour level programmed into the 141 syllabus.

My point is that 141 schools do NOT have to move any faster than a part 61 training program, but they do fall into another level of "community progress" that is not experienced in the personal one-on-one training of part 61.

 

[Henning]

Sure, understood, the program at 141 is flexible to the individual time requirements, but if you go out of the norm, you'll go through more instructors, but not necessarily flight time, although stretching out training will likely have that result regardless 61 or 141, single or multiple instructors.

Thing about single instructor: You don't know how smart or dumb your instructor is until you have a comparative reference. You might like the instructor and get along with them, but they may be teaching you the most difficult way to learn anything, and you'll never know you don't have the greatest instructor ever and wonder why you are at 70 hrs and still nowhere close to ready.